Off Limits?

[Glenski]

Nisei88 wrote:

You can not legislate out racism.

Right. I agree. But, you can use the laws as a starting point to educate people, and that may eventually change their minds. Even if it doesn't, it is a step towards recognizing human rights beyond just signing a treaty and ignoring it thereafter.

pipokun wrote:

The plaintiffs, presumably they are happy to live here even as a political/cultural supporter or dissident, are the good example that no serious hate crime is here.

The plaintiffs I do not know, other than know OF Debitou Arudou, and you would have to speak to him to decide whether he is "happy" or not. After all, he has become naturalized. As for no "serious hate crime", I might agree with that, but you would have to define it.

ArmandV wrote:

This sign is very common in the U.S. So, to play Devil's Advocate, who are we (Americans) to complain about Japanese discriminatory practices?

We are humans who deserve human rights and fairness, especially from a country that outwardly claims to support both. (Don't give me the tatemae and honne jazz, either. Japan needs to be held accountable for its actions.)

Pachipro wrote:

Then, as Tokapi mentioned above, how do you explain the signs in US establishments that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone? It is their right as business owners IMO.

The fact that people put us signs by and of itself is not a legal ethic or an established right for them to do so. Secondly, many of the implications behind those signs is that they reserve the right to refuse people with bad manners or reputations in that particular establishment, not people based on their nationality. Even in the US, you'll catch legal flak for that sort of stuff!

To stop further trouble, it is probably best that they ban all foreigners as many do not understand the customs. Again, I say it is their right. So what if they lost? Big deal. I wouldn't patronize that place anyway. It's not as if that's the only onsen in Hokkaido.

Ban all foreigners because only one bunch caused problems? Racial profiling at its finest. The law saw things otherwise, thankfully, so you should take heed of that. It's your choice to walk the other way and ignore the problem, too. If everyone did that, the problem would stay buried and never have attention drawn to it, and never stand a chance of being defeated.

Re: Japan signing the non-discrimination treaty

So what? The US, among many others, signed the Geneva Convention and still torture goes on.

And this makes it all right? Stupid reasoning. Signatures on treaties mean nothing? That's your opinion, and I politely disagree. Hold Japan accountable, or live with the problem (and to heck with ya when you face it).

Name one country on the face of the planet that does not discriminate in one way or another. One just has to learn to live with it

No I don't. You go ahead.

It's funny how the white man, who receives the least discrimination of all the races, cries bloody hell when he experiences it in a foreign country and demands that they change while denying that it exists in his own country or that a treaty was signed. (I'm not pointing a finger at you Glenski).

Good, because you would lose. Yes, I'm white, but there are plenty of white people fighting discrimination problems for themselves as well as for non-whites.

I've seen places/signs that refuse entry to ANYONE wearing a tatoo. I know of business establishments that will refuse service to people under 30 or to other than salarymen; I know of apartment complexes that will refuse to rent to college students. It exists in Japan for the Japanese also if you look hard enough.

The tattoo issue stems from yakuza influence. Refusing to serve people under 30 is astonishing (whatever the business may be; can you elaborate). And, I can sympathize with apartment owners refusing service to college kids. The fact that all of these exist does not justify them. Racial discrimination is a more powerful thing, so it gets more attention.

I also made my own reservation, in my own gaijin name, at an Onsen in Atami in English (and not one that foreigners frequent) and had no problem.

Good, and if they ask to see your passport, I hope you refuse because they are not legally obligated to ask you for it. Please be sure to report on this. Don't let them tell you otherwise. It's a pile of manure.

Glenski, I find it very interesting and revealing how you pick and choose things to argue about while completely ignoring and not commenting on the other aspects of the debate that one makes, such as my last paragraph above:
Originally Posted by Pachipro
If foreigners want this discrimination to decrease, maybe they should learn how to conduct themselves in public or in their apartments/houses and learn a little about the customs and languages. Then and ONLY then may change take place. After all, who would want to lose business and money even from foreigners? It is only based on their experience that they probably realize that they will lose more money (in the long run) and customers by allowing the rowdy and rude foreigner in. It's a matter of business.

Pachipro,
I'm not avoiding what you wrote above. I simply chose to address a huge number of other points. Look at this post of mine alone. I answered four posters! Please give me a gentle nudge when I overlook some things, and I will discuss them. You make it seem like I do this a lot, when that is not the case. I visit half a dozen forums or more daily, moderate two, and hold a full-time job. I think I can be given some leeway now and then.

As to your point above, I agree. Foreigners should learn better how to conduct themselves. If you look at the history of my posts on teaching forums, you will see that I often write about how many newbies here are undisciplined hedonistic types whose attitudes put many of us more serious teachers in a bad light. As a result, many posters/flamers choose to put me down with silly-arsed nicknames and remarks about a "doom and gloom" or "negative" attitude meant to keep newcomers out of Japan.

One problem with foreigners and their poor attitudes is that they may have visions of coming here only for a year or two. They don't care about what wreckage they leave behind. Perhaps asking for more teaching qualifications would help to minimize this damage and help to promote less juvenile types. It won't eliminate it, but any reduction is welcome! Another problem is a chicken-and-the-egg thing, in that language schools here don't often want experienced teachers; they'd prefer a newcomer who is fresh from his country, whether to show a more fresh outlook on it, or just because the employer doesn't want a savvy long-termer to see through some shady contract clause. When the newbie comes, however, he gets a bad taste, may ditch the company early, and only perpetuate the feelings that foreigners are untrustworthy, so why treat them well or fairly. Is there a permanent change in sight? I don't think so. I've been posting on teaching forums for 10 years. Not much has changed for the better, and in fact, some things have gotten worse. It seems that there are more people out there who figure that they can get (and are deserved!!) teaching jobs by sheer virtue of their native English speaking ability. Yeah, right.

Have a good break. I'll be working most of the time.

 

[pipokun]

pipokun wrote:
The plaintiffs I do not know, other than know OF Debitou Arudou, and you would have to speak to him to decide whether he is "happy" or not. After all, he has become naturalized. As for no "serious hate crime", I might agree with that, but you would have to define it.
...

OK. I am sorry to use the word, happy, so easily, for it is impossible to define the word to meet the standard of all people here.

The plaintiffs, they live here even as a political/cultural supporter or dissident, are the good example that no serious hate crime is here.

Debitou is the good example that you can be naturalised, even if you do not agree with everything here.

Glenski, you are also the good example that you can get the permanent resident status, even if you claim Japan is a horrible country

Serious hate crimes I can think of in Japan is that some DPRK supporters claim it is horrible hate crimes to have their Korean school unform cut only when the DPRK tested missiles or Nuke.
The cases above are, yes, serious, but it has been mysterious for me that nobody has been arrested. Hopefully cherry-cherry would enlighten me for the right answer here.

 

[DoctorP]

No, they don't have any "right" to refuse service to people for just any reason they choose, especially based on nationality! Hotels, for example, cannot refuse a customer except on very specific grounds: a health issue involving contagious disease, a clear and present endangerment of public morals, or because all rooms are full.
Businesses are not lawmakers and cannot reserve any nonexistent rights.
Have you guys never heard of the Otaru bathhouse case?

Newsflash! Yes they do. If I open a business...be it in America or Japan...I can choose to not serve you. That is my right...I have absolutely no obligation to provide a service to you. Like it or not...that is the way it is.

Perhaps it is a bad business practice, but I still reserve that right.

 

[BlueThunderKuno]

Well I am not going to cause a fuss overseas in a country where I am a guest. I figure if I am turned away I am just going to go along with the flow, I mean there always will be other places. I am not sure where I stand on this issue but I just dont want to be caught up in something in another country.

Thanks for all your insight, I learned a lot

 

[Pachipro]

I'm not avoiding what you wrote above. I simply chose to address a huge number of other points. Look at this post of mine alone. I answered four posters! Please give me a gentle nudge when I overlook some things, and I will discuss them. You make it seem like I do this a lot, when that is not the case. I visit half a dozen forums or more daily, moderate two, and hold a full-time job. I think I can be given some leeway now and then.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were so busy. Where do you find the time? Anyway, I do not disagree with anything you have written and you are mostly correct. But the truth of the matter is I have seen this argument going on for more than 35 years now since I first set foot in Japan way back when. I faced a little of it throughout the 70's and 80's when I lived there full-time and still nothing has changed save for minor changes here and there. It has been discussed by panels of foreigners on TV many times and still it exists with the same arguments by both foreigners and Japanese.

I don't like it either and when I return permanently I will do my part to help end it, but I am resigned to the fact that it does exist, always has, and probably always will to some extent in one way or another. As a resident who chooses to reside there I just come to accept it (while not condoning it by any means) as a fact of life as it really is not as bad, nor as rampant as you and Debito make it out to be. At least I have never really experienced it to the extent you guys have written about. But at least someone is speaking out, for, to remain silent would only make it worse.

In fact, being a northerner here in the south I have received subtle forms of discrimination albeit not as blatent as in Japan. But it exists. Always has and probably always will. I have just come to accept it as a fact of life.

As I have done previously, when I see a "No foreigners allowed" sign or am turned down for an apartment, I politely inquire, in Japanese, as to their reasons, the majority of which I understand why for, as you mentioned above, it is the short termers who fail to understand the language and customs that make it bad for the rest. That, I'm afraid will never end either no matter how much education they are given when the arrive. After all they are foreigners and have rights and "can do as they please" just as they do in their own country even if it means wearing shoes on tatami, playing loud music, disturbing the Wa of their neighbors, being rowdy in bars, demanding to pay in UD$ or trying to pick up every woman they see weather they are with a man or not.

One cannot completely blame the Japanese people for what they have been taught, no matter how in error it may be, nor can we completely blame the business owner or landlord as they, much as we disagree with it, are basing their decisions on personal experience which may have resulted in monetary losses or loss of business or face to their neighbors or community.

We can only politely, but firmly continually speak our views on the subject and never remain silent or completely succumb to it for then it will never end. Even still it is a more than pleasurable place to live and visit.

 

[centrajapan]

Well I am not going to cause a fuss overseas in a country where I am a guest. I figure if I am turned away I am just going to go along with the flow, I mean there always will be other places. I am not sure where I stand on this issue but I just dont want to be caught up in something in another country.

Thanks for all your insight, I learned a lot

We are not talking about 90% of establishments but perhaps 10%. Most of the 10% are either brothels or hostess clubs. I have never heard of an izakaya, techno club, bars, restaurants who denied entry to non Japanese.

 

[Dimitree]

The Tom Green special was just really embarrissing for americans. You can search youtube I believe for "Tom Green Japan" and the videos should come up, i think there are 5 total.
In one part he laid down on the top of the stairs at a busy subway and people had to walk over him and he just kept laying there until police arrived.

I have 6 million Tom Greens in my country ... what can i say

 

[Pachipro]

Well I am not going to cause a fuss overseas in a country where I am a guest. I figure if I am turned away I am just going to go along with the flow, I mean there always will be other places. I am not sure where I stand on this issue but I just dont want to be caught up in something in another country.

Thanks for all your insight, I learned a lot

Don't give it a second thought and, most of all, enjoy your time there as you will probably never experience it. Whether you do or don't, please post your experience here when you return and tell us your opinions and whether one should be worried about it or not when going for a visit. Have Fun!

 

[BlueThunderKuno]

Thanks Pachipro it will be April when I go over there I will post on here when I come back. Also I just noticed that you are from TN, I moved from MA to TN about 5 years ago.

 

[ArmandV]

We are humans who deserve human rights and fairness, especially from a country that outwardly claims to support both. (Don't give me the tatemae and honne jazz, either. Japan needs to be held accountable for its actions.)

Well, it is their facade and hidden feelings, not ours. They are the ones losing out in the court of public opinion and business. When we are in Japan, our yen is just as yellow as theirs. To forbid foreigners from conducting business at an establishment, not only does it make them look foolish, they are depriving themselves out of making a buck and win over some additional business via word-of-mouth. It is extremely short-sighted (to put it mildly).

You are right, to be judged unsuitable to be admitted into a business establishment is a slap at human dignity, whatever the alleged reasons there may be.

 

[Glenski]

Newsflash! Yes they do. If I open a business...be it in America or Japan...I can choose to not serve you. That is my right...I have absolutely no obligation to provide a service to you. Like it or not...that is the way it is.
Perhaps it is a bad business practice, but I still reserve that right.

If you do this and do not provide a substantial reason (like, that customer caused damages to my place every time he came, so he is not allowed), then you run the risk of being sued. You will certainly lose if you do it on the basis of nationality.

I have never heard of an izakaya, techno club, bars, restaurants who denied entry to non Japanese.

Then you have not read anything on www.debito.org

I suggest you read the Rogue's Gallery link.
www.debito.org: THE ROGUE'S GALLERY: Photos of places which refuse non-Japanese in Japan

 

[Glenski]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were so busy. Where do you find the time? Anyway, I do not disagree with anything you have written and you are mostly correct. But the truth of the matter is I have seen this argument going on for more than 35 years now since I first set foot in Japan way back when. I faced a little of it throughout the 70's and 80's when I lived there full-time and still nothing has changed save for minor changes here and there. It has been discussed by panels of foreigners on TV many times and still it exists with the same arguments by both foreigners and Japanese.

And, this is still no reason not to stop fighting it. I think you have accepted that point, too.

I don't like it either and when I return permanently I will do my part to help end it, but I am resigned to the fact that it does exist, always has, and probably always will to some extent in one way or another. As a resident who chooses to reside there I just come to accept it (while not condoning it by any means) as a fact of life as it really is not as bad, nor as rampant as you and Debito make it out to be.

I guess it depends on how open one's eyes are about the issue. Debito has been described as a very confrontational (in your face) sort of person when he runs into a whiff of such matters. In that sense, he is an extremist, but for the most part, he does an excellent job of recording what happens here. Since he is only one person, naturally his effect and range are limited.

As I have done previously, when I see a "No foreigners allowed" sign or am turned down for an apartment, I politely inquire, in Japanese, as to their reasons, the majority of which I understand why

You should read what a guy named Ryan posted on the Yahoo listserve ETJ Life in Japan. He owns a school and got a severe runaround from a real estate agent and landlord on who actually was trying to forbid a foreign teacher of Ryan's from getting an apartment. Here's a snippet. Bear in mind that Ryan has a Japanese wife who helped in these proceedings.

When we told the realtor we wanted the apartment and it became apparent that
it was for a foreigner, we were then refused since the apartment owner has
apparently had problems with a foreigner in the past. We found the same
apartment listed with another agent in the area who told us the same thing.
We have one of the refusals recorded. Neither agent was the main listing
agent for the apartment, however. We wanted to talk with the owner or main
agent about the situation, but we were refused the information.



On the advice of one list member who wrote privately, I went to the
houmukyoku to find the registered owner of the apartment, and my wife and I
gave him a visit Thursday evening. We were very polite and asked him if we
could talk to him about the problems he had previously had with foreigners,
but he said he has no policy against renting to foreigners and would have no
problems renting to us. He then (supposedly) called the main real estate
agent and gave us the news that someone else was already interested in the
apartment, though, telling us to check with them about the situation the
next morning. We at least got the main listing agent's name, however.



My wife, being the amazing woman she is, knew the agency and said the light
had been on when we passed it on our way to the owner's house. We hurried
into the car and got to the agency just as they were about to close. When
we told them why we were there, they said the owner had refused us and there
was nothing they could do. They were extremely surprised to learn we had
just spoken to the owner, leading us to believe the owner had just been
pretending to be on the phone. They then said someone else was interested
in the apartment, so we would have to wait for their decision. We made it
very clear, however, that we had made our decision a full week-and-a-half
prior and considered ourselves ahead of any other possible renters. To make
an even longer story a little shorter, they kept giving us the runaround
until we had countered all of their "reasons" for our not being able to rent
to us and essentially trapped themselves in their own excuses and twisted
logic. We recorded the exchanges with both the landlord and real estate
office and I would love to post them sometime, as they are absolutely
mind-boggling. In the end, though, they ran out of even semi-plausible
excuses and we got the apartment.

 

[Taiko666]

It's very depressing to see so many people here defending legalised racism, which is what 'no foreigner' signs amount to.

What would be the harm if Japan joined the rest of the civilized world in enacting anti-racism laws?

A question for those defending this racism: Would you bar somebody from your business on the grounds of their race? If the answer is "yes", or "I'd like to but it's illegal" you're a racist. If a simple "no"... why do you defend Japanese people's rights to be racist?

It seems many posters think that Japan has some sort of unique right to preserve its 'culture' of racism.

 

[ifjames]

There are cultural differences and there is racism: Australia had a "White Australia Policy" (TRUE) for many decades; that didn't allow non-Caucasians to emigrate to Australia: Japan allows "foreign" emigration, or at least long-term residency: there may be a difference between this and true racism in terms of "foreigners only" establishments due to cultural traditions, which need to be respected by those not of the original culture.

 

[centrajapan]

A question for those defending this racism: Would you bar somebody from your business on the grounds of their race? If the answer is "yes", or "I'd like to but it's illegal" you're a racist. If a simple "no"... why do you defend Japanese people's rights to be racist?

Say if a groupf Ku Klux Klan members came into your establishment or a group of Neo Nazis. Would you want to serve to your new customers? It is about personal freedom. People have a right to be racist and people should have a right to serve to who ever they please.

I said maybe 90% of establishments. I would say closew to 99% of all establishments do not have any kinds of racial discrimination.

Then you have not read anything on www.debito.org

These Japan signs are not everywhere. I have lived in Japan for almost 20 years. I can read and speak Japanese. You would think these signs are all over the place. They are not. Its mostly brothels and hostess clubs. Or you can say racial discrimination is probably worse in that type of industries than others.

 

[pipokun]

...
What would be the harm if Japan joined the rest of the civilized world in enacting anti-racism laws?
...

No laws do not harm anyone at all, but the content which the ruling LDP and Komeito are planning is the problem.
From the notorious 2ch lovers, liberal journalists even to Japan Communist Party, they strongly oppose it.

Just go to a JCP office nearby to ask them the reason why they are barbaric to oppose it. I would like to tell you about it here, but I am not too civilised and I think the simple dichotomy, civilised or barbaric, is meaningless.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

You would think these signs are all over the place. They are not. Its mostly brothels and hostess clubs. Or you can say racial discrimination is probably worse in that type of industries than others.

Centrajapan, once again I think you are a little of cue here.

I have visited many of the hostess bars, brothels and strip clubs, I did not have a problem nor did my mates..

We had some good night's out.

I found that a healthy load in Kyoto actually preferred foreigners as did the girls LOL..

Were you refused entry or is your information simply from walking past the joints?

 

[Glenski]

Japan allows "foreign" emigration, or at least long-term residency: there may be a difference between this and true racism in terms of "foreigners only" establishments due to cultural traditions,

Yes, there most certainly is a difference!

which need to be respected by those not of the original culture.

I don't understand. "Foreigners only"????? We are talking about signs that read "NO foreigners".


centrajapan wrote:

These Japan signs are not everywhere. I have lived in Japan for almost 20 years. I can read and speak Japanese. You would think these signs are all over the place. They are not. Its mostly brothels and hostess clubs.

You are way out of touch with reality. Where exactly have you kept to yourself in the last 20 years? PLEASE look at that list on the Rogue's Gallery! It is clear that you have not. Those signs, collected by just one person, mind you, stretch from Okinawa to Wakkanai (Hokkaido ).

Or you can say racial discrimination is probably worse in that type of industries than others.

Yes, you could, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

Say if a groupf Ku Klux Klan members came into your establishment or a group of Neo Nazis.

centrajapan, you are so far out of touch that it is astonishing! We are not talking about known (and somehow easily recognizable) members of violent racist groups patronizing one's establishment. We are talking about normal human beings. Wake up.

pipokun wrote:

No laws do not harm anyone at all, but the content which the ruling LDP and Komeito are planning is the problem.

Enlighten me. What exactly is it they are planning? I have seen zero in the way of anti-discrimination legislation proposed (in the English media, anyway).

 

[centrajapan]

You are way out of touch with reality. Where exactly have you kept to yourself in the last 20 years? PLEASE look at that list on the Rogue's Gallery!

I know where I have been the last 20 years. I was in Tokyo and Yokohama. There is little racism in Azabu 10ban. No one cares except defensive gaijins. His rouge gallery is like the 70s feminist movement. Im sure it has a role to play in society but lets not blow this out of proportions.

 

[ArmandV]

It doesn't really matter what kind of business establishment it is, even one "no foreigners" sign is one too many.

 

[Taiko666]

Say if a groupf Ku Klux Klan members came into your establishment or a group of Neo Nazis

Of course I wouldn't serve them. But that's NOT RACISM! People can choose their political persuasions/prejudices and take the consequences. You cannot choose your race. Don't you see the difference?

People have a right to be racist

What? Is that a typo? I really can't believe you wrote that.

It seems that when some people discuss Japan, normally accepted moral standards are set aside.

 

[Taiko666]

There is little racism in Azabu 10ban.

No one cares

You mean you don't care... you've already stated your opinion that being racist is a right.

except defensive gaijins.

Because they're the ones suffering the racism perhaps?

His rouge gallery is like the 70s feminist movemen

Is this a good or bad thing? I don't understand your point.

there may be a difference between this and true racism in terms of "foreigners only" establishments due to cultural traditions, which need to be respected by those not of the original culture.

A racist tradition should not be respected.

 

[Glenski]

I know where I have been the last 20 years. I was in Tokyo and Yokohama. There is little racism in Azabu 10ban. No one cares except defensive gaijins. His rouge gallery is like the 70s feminist movement. Im sure it has a role to play in society but lets not blow this out of proportions.

Ah, Azabu, the oasis of tranquility. Let's have all of the millions of foreigners move there, ok?

Get out more. Even the Rogue's Gallery has postings for Tokyo. Open your eyes.

But, it is clear you don't give a hoot about this issue.

 

[Glenski]

For anyone who truly, honestly believes there is no racism in Japan, just thought you should read this. Please take the time. 5 minutes will do.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071218zg.html

 

[karlyboo]

For anyone who truly, honestly believes there is no racism in Japan, just thought you should read this. Please take the time. 5 minutes will do.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071218zg.html

An excellent article :122: