I really want to be a good ambassador of my country when I visit Japan. I have heard there are places that don't allow foreiners, what types of places are these?
I have been trying really hard to make sure I don't infringe on the Japanese people's way of life. I just saw a Tom Green special on when he went to Japan, and it really made me sick to see some of the stuff he did.
Just being aware of yourself is probably the biggest step towards being a good guest. Too many people forget themselves and misbehave, so it's a good sign that you're already concerned about this. There really aren't any places that don't allow foreigners, so don't worry too much about that. The only places I've heard of that turn foreigners away, I wouldn't care to go to anyways.
I really want to be a good ambassador of my country when I visit Japan. I have heard there are places that don't allow foreiners, what types of places are these?
I have been trying really hard to make sure I don't infringe on the Japanese people's way of life. I just saw a Tom Green special on when he went to Japan, and it really made me sick to see some of the stuff he did.
The rouge gallery on debito.org. 90% or so is just hostess bars. As much as I think it is important that some people point out the issue of discrimination which does happen in Japan and in that sense I applaud Debito but having read through his internet page. I'm not quite sure what to think of him.
I have once been denied renting a flat just for the reason of not having a Japanese citizenship. It was a quite shocking experience. When that said I think in Europe they will discriminate you in a more subtle manner. If you are from an African country I'm sure they have a harder time finding a place to stay. But I doubt anyone in Europe will say straight to the face of an African and say. You can not rent this flat because you are not European.
That would be on the front page of the news paper. In that sense Japan is a backward country.
People have been denied apartments in Japan because of their nationality, and sometimes even despite having a Japanese spouse! One person (Korean) sued and won.
90% or so hostess bars? You should really read that listing more carefully.
onsens
bars
bath houses
restaurants
pachinko parlors
stores
internet cafe
eyeglasses store
apartment
billiard hall
The Rogues' Gallery on debito.org is not his only listing of places that discriminate. Do a search on the blog. He recently wrote about discrimination at a Toyoko Inn. Look at the link labeled Dejima Awards. You'll find foreigner-free universities and exclusion from a high school footrace.
I really hope this issue doesnt come up when I am over there but I was glad to become awhere of it. I am just nervous I will walk into a place and be yelled at and asked to leave. I hardly know the language as it is, man that would just be embarrissing.
But be careful when you use your credit card in some red light districts.
As you can find a warning somewhere here, the rip-off stuff is nothing Japanese-only now.
And if you are brave, just shoot photos of English-friendly pimps in Kabukicho and fake Bape shops in Harajuku. I am such a coward that I just expect you to upload them here.
The Tom Green special was just really embarrissing for americans. You can search youtube I believe for "Tom Green Japan" and the videos should come up, i think there are 5 total.
In one part he laid down on the top of the stairs at a busy subway and people had to walk over him and he just kept laying there until police arrived.
Glenski-san. No, you are right. I should have looked more carefully. Maybe it is me who just focused more on the hostess bars. haha.
Most of the time when there are signs like that it is because they have langauge problems or because they have had bad experience in the past with gaikokujins. I don't like those signs at all however there is a part of me which says, well if they don't want to let in gaikokujins then it should be up to that establishment to decide.
I know of this one bar in Japan which is owned by an American. It's a nice place and I used to go there quite often. A very nice American man who has been living in Japan for ages. He has a sign in both languages, forgot the exact wording but it said something like.
We reserve the right to not serve to people who we don't want to serve to. It said in both Japanese and English.
I watched a Japanese program taking the BBC program before and it told us how the weirdness was broadcasted in the UK. But no war that the HG should be only in Japan, though I do not often see him on TV now.
centrajapan,
All the politeness and multilingualism in any sign barring people because of their nationality is no right to do so. You think that people should have the right to bar whomever, including various nationalities? I don't. It's just plain wrong.
Had a bad experience with a foreigner? Get over it. We are not all like that one person.
Have a language problem with a foreigner? You run a business open to everyone. Try harder, or you will lose that part of your business (and more if word gets around).
You're right I should say North Americans. But I have talked with a few Chinese, Koren, Vietamise and Japanese people that really don't distinguish between Canadians and Americans. Plus he is/was on American tv.
centrajapan,
All the politeness and multilingualism in any sign barring people because of their nationality is no right to do so. You think that people should have the right to bar whomever, including various nationalities? I don't. It's just plain wrong.
Had a bad experience with a foreigner? Get over it. We are not all like that one person.
Have a language problem with a foreigner? You run a business open to everyone. Try harder, or you will lose that part of your business (and more if word gets around).
Like it or not, businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. Especially in Japan. Don't like it...use another service, it is not like the entire country is out to get you. I have seen the signs, and I still went into the places. Once inside I did not have any problem. I have heard people with varying stories...but my personal experience is that I have not had a problem in these places...just as I have not had a problem with my tatoos when going to an onsen.
Should it be up to the business or should the government make a law banning it? THough I don't like the concept of Japanese only I lean towards the decision that it should not be government call. Every bar, public bath can have the right to maintain their laws which fit them the most.
I really want to be a good ambassador of my country when I visit Japan. I have heard there are places that don't allow foreiners, what types of places are these?
I have been trying really hard to make sure I don't infringe on the Japanese people's way of life.
Just go and be yourself. From the looks of some of the posts here you'd think there was a "No Foreigners!" sign on every other store or bar when the fact of the matter is that it is a rare sight indeed!
DoctorP said:
Glenski said:
centrajapan, All the politeness and multilingualism in any sign barring people because of their nationality is no right to do so. You think that people should have the right to bar whomever, including various nationalities? I don't. It's just plain wrong. Had a bad experience with a foreigner? Get over it. We are not all like that one person. Have a language problem with a foreigner? You run a business open to everyone. Try harder, or you will lose that part of your business (and more if word gets around).
Like it or not, businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. Especially in Japan. Don't like it...use another service, it is not like the entire country is out to get you. I have seen the signs, and I still went into the places. Once inside I did not have any problem. I have heard people with varying stories...but my personal experience is that I have not had a problem in these places...just as I have not had a problem with my tatoos when going to an onsen.
I agree with the Doctor here. As business and landowners they have every right to refuse service to anyone they please weather it be in a bar or for housing. They are doing it based on previous bad experience.
Like the Doctor I also have been into the rare place that has a sign up with absolutely no problem. When I questioned them about it, they said it was to keep out the drunks and trouble makers who do not know the language and customs. It did not impact their business at all. After all there are some places that even refuse entry to or rent to Japanese people based on their age and looks, etc.
It may be "wrong" in some peoples' opinions, but this is Japan and that's the way they do things. It's not as if discrimination against foreigners is rampent in every other buisiness establishment. It is rare and usually there is a reason for it.
If foreigners want this discrimination to decrease, maybe they should learn how to conduct themselves in public or in their apartments/houses and learn a little about the customs and languages. Then and ONLY then may change take place. After all, who would want to lose business and money even from foreigners? It is only based on their experience that they probably realize that they will lose more money and customers by allowing the rowdy and rude foreigner in. It's a matter oif business.
No, they don't have any "right" to refuse service to people for just any reason they choose, especially based on nationality! Hotels, for example, cannot refuse a customer except on very specific grounds: a health issue involving contagious disease, a clear and present endangerment of public morals, or because all rooms are full.
Businesses are not lawmakers and cannot reserve any nonexistent rights.
Have you guys never heard of the Otaru bathhouse case?
If a specific person has caused problems, as pachipro wrote, then that would be the only case of an acceptable ban. But in the case of the Otaru bathhouse, the owner banned all foreigners after having problems only with Russians. He lost.
After all there are some places that even refuse entry to or rent to Japanese people based on their age and looks, etc.
I really want to be a good ambassador of my country when I visit Japan. I have heard there are places that don't allow foreiners, what types of places are these?
I have been trying really hard to make sure I don't infringe on the Japanese people's way of life. I just saw a Tom Green special on when he went to Japan, and it really made me sick to see some of the stuff he did.
I doubt you will have any problems. But if it does happen, don't be embarrassed. You have nothing to be embarrassed about.
I wouldn't want to give my money to any business who do not really want me in their establishment. By knowing up front at least you avoid getting bad service or have someone in the back spitting in your food.
No, they don't have any "right" to refuse service to people for just any reason they choose, especially based on nationality! Hotels, for example, cannot refuse a customer except on very specific grounds: a health issue involving contagious disease, a clear and present endangerment of public morals, or because all rooms are full.
Businesses are not lawmakers and cannot reserve any nonexistent rights.
Have you guys never heard of the Otaru bathhouse case?
If a specific person has caused problems, as pachipro wrote, then that would be the only case of an acceptable ban. But in the case of the Otaru bathhouse, the owner banned all foreigners after having problems only with Russians. He lost.
That doesn't make it right or acceptable. What are your examples, anyway (aside from the legal drinking age)?
And it should not be tolerated because the country signed a non-discrimination treaty.
Poor reasons at best. Can you show me good ones? And, it is not as rare as you make it out to be.
You can not legislate out racism. You can't change peoples feelings through laws. Let the racist hang their signs, wear costumes or whatever to make them identifiable. At least that way I know where/whom to avoid.
The plaintiffs, presumably they are happy to live here even as a political/cultural supporter or dissident, are the good example that no serious hate crime is here.
Glenski, you are also the good example.
I am just curious what would happen if Tom Brown or whoever did the same things in neighboring countries of Japan. I heard Kim Jong-il loves to watch Japanese comedy shows, though.
This sign is very common in the U.S. So, to play Devil's Advocate, who are we (Americans) to complain about Japanese discriminatory practices?
"Two wrongs don't make a right. They make two wrongs."
I didn't see too many establishments in Tokyo that didn't allow foreigners (just a few bars in Ueno). The place where I really saw a lot of "no foreigners" or "Japanese only" signs was in Sendai (again, mainly bars and nightclubs). If a foreigner happens to live in a community with such signs, it can get petty dull very fast on Friday or Saturday nights with few options open to them.
Then, as Tokapi mentioned above, how do you explain the signs in US establishments that say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone? It is their right as business owners IMO.
Have you guys never heard of the Otaru bathhouse case?...they banned all foreigners.
Of course I have. Hasn't anyone with an interest in these things? To stop further trouble, it is probably best that they ban all foreigners as many do not understand the customs. Again, I say it is their right. So what if they lost? Big deal. I wouldn't patronize that place anyway. It's not as if that's the only onsen in Hokkaido .
And it should not be tolerated because the country signed a non-discrimination treaty.
So what? The US, among many others, signed the Geneva Convention and still torture goes on. Many countries have signed many things and still discrimination, or whatever exists. Signatures on treaties mean nothing these days. Besides, as Nisei88 said, "you cannot legislate out racism." It exists in every country, in every corner of the world, always has and always will.
Name one country on the face of the planet that does not discriminate in one way or another. One just has to learn to live with it as it will never be erased as long as there are differing nationalities and skin color no matter what laws are made, outside of execution.
I do not deny that it exists in Japan. I accept it, rare that it is, as a fact of life there, just as blacks and other nationalities understand that it exists here in the US also. They also learn to live around it. It's funny how the white man, who receives the least discrimination of all the races, cries bloody hell when he experiences it in a foreign country and demands that they change while denying that it exists in his own country or that a treaty was signed. (I'm not pointing a finger at you Glenski).
That doesn't make it right or acceptable. What are your examples, anyway (aside from the legal drinking age)?
I've seen places/signs that refuse entry to ANYONE wearing a tatoo. I know of business establishments that will refuse service to people under 30 or to other than salarymen; I know of apartment complexes that will refuse to rent to college students. It exists in Japan for the Japanese also if you look hard enough.
Poor reasons at best. Can you show me good ones? And, it is not as rare as you make it out to be.
Well I'm going to Japan again this weekend for two weeks. I will make a concerted effort to find and photograph any place in my neighborhood, Shinjuku, Shibuya, Yokohama, (places I will visit and party) etc., that have these signs and will post them here. I will also enter more than few bars, Snacks, etc on my own, and with a fellow foreign friend, and will report on my experiences. I also made my own reservation, in my own gaijin name, at an Onsen in Atami in English (and not one that foreigners frequent) and had no problem. Based on past experience, I doubt I will have much, if anything to report.
Glenski, I find it very interesting and revealing how you pick and choose things to argue about while completely ignoring and not commenting on the other aspects of the debate that one makes, such as my last paragraph above:
Pachipro said:
If foreigners want this discrimination to decrease, maybe they should learn how to conduct themselves in public or in their apartments/houses and learn a little about the customs and languages. Then and ONLY then may change take place. After all, who would want to lose business and money even from foreigners? It is only based on their experience that they probably realize that they will lose more money (in the long run) and customers by allowing the rowdy and rude foreigner in. It's a matter of business.
It makes you seem one sided with one point of view when you only pick and choose your arguments from a post. Do you not agree with what I've written or is it too close to the truth?
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