Need help with translating a sentence

Lee Shane · 21 Mar 2020

I've come across a sentence that I can't seem to understand.

父親が女性のような生き方だったため, 好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に.

My translation:

Because her father's way of life was like a woman's, her favorite male tended to prefer people like those called "men among men."

I know I'm somewhat close, but how did I do?

SomeCallMeChris · 21 Mar 2020

Lee Shane said:
Because her father's way of life was like a woman's, her favorite male tended to prefer people like those called "men among men."

That's not quite right. I won't say 好みの男性 can never mean that... 好み can work that way with some things （好みのＴシャツ）, but if 好みの男性 can be used that way, it would take a specific context. In a sentence like this "the guy she likes" would mostly likely be 好きな男（/人/男の人）

The way you have it would mean there is a man she likes, and that man likes manly men ('men among men').

In this case, 好みの男性 means "taste in men" and is only about subject's preferences.

Majestic · 21 Mar 2020

I would suggest: "A man's man"

Lee Shane · 21 Mar 2020

SomeCallMeChris said:
In this case, 好みの男性 means "taste in men" and is only about subject's preferences.

Ok, so the sentence would be this:

Because her father's way of life was like a woman's, her taste in men tended to prefer people like those called "men among men."

But that makes no sense, either; it's redundant. Shouldn't it either be just taste in men or tended to prefer? So it would be either:

Her taste in men are ~~people like~~ those called "men among men." or She tended to prefer people like those called "men among men."

Is this right or am I looking at it wrong?

SomeCallMeChris · 21 Mar 2020

Majestic said:
I would suggest: "A man's man"

I mean, that is a turn of phrase that is used. However, I haven't heard it used for the plain meaning in years, maybe decades, but only as a double-meaning for a gay man. (Which was clever twenty years ago, but a little tired by now).

Lee Shane said:
Her taste in men are ~~people like~~ those called "men among men." or She tended to prefer people like those called "men among men."

This seems about right.

"Tended to prefer people" is a little odd and might not clearly mean romantic preference. I don't know why you put a line through "people like"; that meaning is in the Japanese. You can drop it either or both of "those called" or "people like" in natural English translation, but that is included in the most literal meaning of the sentence.

好みの男性は = "Her taste in men", the topic.
「男の中の男」という様な方 = (literally) "persons who are like those called 'men among men'" ⇒ (naturally) "very manly men".
～方を好む＝ "liking the persons ~"
傾向に : short for 傾向にある, "have a tendency to".

"Her taste in men tends towards liking the sort of person called 'a man among men" ⇒ (more naturally) "Her preferences lean toward the very manly type."

Lee Shane · 21 Mar 2020

SomeCallMeChris said:
I don't know why you put a line through "people like"; that meaning is in the Japanese.

I put a line through it because, although it's in the Japanese writing, it seems weird in English IMO.

Anyway, thanks for the help! I understand the sentence, now.

Toritoribe · 22 Mar 2020

There is no problem with 好みの男性. It's commonly used as 好みのタイプの男性.

Actually, the problem is in the original clause 好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に. It should be

男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に
or
好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方である/になる傾向に.

Thus, the initial translation in this thread is correct. The original sentence exactly means so, which is obviously not the one the writer intended.

SomeCallMeChris · 22 Mar 2020

Oh. It didn't occur to me that the author might be wrong. Thank you, Toritoribe-san.

So, in summary, for the intended meaning,

✖好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に
◎好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方である傾向に
◎好みの男性は"男の中の男"という様な方になる傾向に
◎男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に

But, what about,
(edit: adding batsu/maru according to answer)
✖好みは「男の中の男」というような方を好む傾向に
○好みは「男の中の男」というような方である傾向に
○好みは「男の中の男」というような方になる傾向に

Toritoribe · 22 Mar 2020

The problem is in 好み（の男性）は～を好む. This is illogical since taste/favorite male is not the subject of "to prefer". Thus, the last two ones are OK.

As for 男性は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に, 男性は is interpreted as 男性（の中）では, not the subject.

bentenmusume · 22 Mar 2020

This is mainly for my own enlightenment (I realize that the question is mostly academic), but I'll ask anyway.

Given the "loose binding" nature of は and the fact that the topic it marks does not strictly need to be the grammatical subject, can one say that the sentence is actually grammatically incorrect for what it's trying to say? I realize it's not particularly well written, and could be expressed in a better sense, but it strikes me that the author intended something like:

好みの男性（に関して）は、（彼女は）男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向に…

It's somewhat awkward, yes, but my understanding has always been that は does not dictate the grammatical function of the topic it marks to the extent that one could say that 好みの男性 _must_ be interpreted as the grammatical subject of 好む in the original sentence.

Toritoribe · 22 Mar 2020

It would be barely acceptable to say 好みの男性（について/関して）は"男の中の男"という様な方を好む傾向にあります for instance, when listing favorite things in self-introduction.
e.g.
好きな食べ物は～です。好きな映画は…です。好きな本（について/関して）は推理小説が好きです。
(Hmm, sounds childish...)

However, 父親が女性のような生き方だったため is also the problem for this interpretation. This clause is for cause/reason, so 好みの男性 refers to the ones caused by this reason, and the following clause is about the favorite male, i.e., it ends with ～だ/である/になる. Probably this is not only the problem of grammatical structure, but also the problem of the collocation or commonness where 好みの～は…を好む is almost never used as 好みの～は…です. There must be limitation for the looseness of binding of は.

bentenmusume · 23 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
Probably this is not only the problem of grammatical structure, but also the problem of the collocation or commonness where 好みの～は…を好む is almost never used as 好みの～は…です. There must be limitation for the looseness of binding of は.

Interesting. That makes sense. 好みのXは…を好む is definitely awkwardly and redundantly written, but the notion that the construction specifically implied that 好むのX had to be the subject of 好む (rather than it just being a slightly awkward sentence that could still be interpreted the way the author meant it due to context and loose binding of は) was interesting to me. I'm trying to think of other patterns where a similar sort of redundancy could exist, and I'm also kind of curious what the original sentence came from and if there are other examples of poorly written or incorrect Japanese exist in it.

Toritoribe · 23 Mar 2020

I think it's just a mistake of the writer.

The structure 好みの～は…を好む only works well in a context "especially", e.g., 好きな本の中では、推理小説が（特に）好きです. I think at least で is necessary for this meaning (i.e. 好きな本では) to avoid being misinterpreted.

Need help with translating a sentence

Lee Shane

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SomeCallMeChris

先輩

Majestic

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Lee Shane

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SomeCallMeChris

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Lee Shane

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

SomeCallMeChris

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

bentenmusume

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Toritoribe

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bentenmusume

原点回帰

Toritoribe

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