Sorry, that was meant to be 人間関係。 This is getting to be too much work for one sentence....hope the actual problem is easier for you both !Mikawa Ossan said:It seems rather redundant to have 問題 in there twice like that.
By the way, I believe that 関係 is an "oyaji kotoba". I'll leave what it means to your imagination....
Fuumei said:Ok, I know there are a quite a few posts here about "Passive" grammar. Because of that, I don't believe I'll have to ask you all to explain yourselves again (for the most part). In this chapter of my book, I am learning the "Passive Form", or at least touching on the subject with the endings "押される" as opposed to "押す".
私は後ろのひとに押されたんです
So in this sentence, it would be grammatically incorrect to use "押したん"? ...and that is because "押された" means something like "has pushed"? At this point I'm not exactly clear on what the new passive form ending is supposed to mean. How should I look at it?
Fuumei said:Also, 皆に画を褒められました. <- I thought during a passive sentence, you couldn't use a direct object marker unless it was a "Suffering Passive" as in you regretted an action. In this sentence, I don't believe someone or anyone is insinuated to be there regretting anything.
Fuumei said:冬 雪が降られると.....
What would be the best way to interpret the passive form of "furu=to fall" in this sentence? "In winter, when the snow 'was going to be falling'... "
いいんですか ☝
You are correct, I put the wrong particle in there.undrentide said:I think the original sentence should read
冬、雪に降られると....
This is the "suffering passive".
undrentide said:By the way, didn't you ask a question in your previous post? I did not have enough time to reply yesterday. If it is already solved, it is OK but if you still need further explanation, please don't hesitate to ask.
I forgot to ask you more clearly about this one. What part of that sentence makes you say the "rareru" ending causes the translation to mean "have snow" and not just "the snow is going to end up falling"? That should about do it I think for awhile. Tons of thanks in advance.undrentide said:雪に降られる
We have the snow fallen. (We have snow.)
Kyoko_desu said:We don't really say anything particular when someone sneezes.
Sometimes "daijyoubu"? cus sneezing is sometimes a sign that he(she)'s caught a cold.
Fuumei said:They were questions that really didn't need to be asked, so I'll give you two real ones in hopes that you'll keep doing a beautiful job with your brackets and such (also forgive me for lack to kanji with this post, I'm not at the same computer at the moment):
Fuumei said:1. keikosan wa johnsonsan kara hana o okuraremashita.
This is the "Suffering Passive" form that is more of a Reward Passive, correct?
Fuumei said:2. shinju no yubiwa o toraremashita
"He took a pearl ring". This example is "Suffering Passive" because it takes the particle "o" and not "ga" correct?
Fuumei said:3. ... iwarete imasu (passive form of iu (say, speak)). In this situation "has been said" would be fine correct? What would happen to the translation if it were "iwarete ita"?
Fuumei said:Finally 4:
undrentide said:雪に降られる
We have the snow fallen. (We have snow.)
I forgot to ask you more clearly about this one. What part of that sentence makes you say the "rareru" ending causes the translation to mean "have snow" and not just "the snow is going to end up falling"? That should about do it I think for awhile. Tons of thanks in advance.
undrentide said:雪に降られる
means "we have snow/it snows (when we don't want any snow/when the snow is to give us problems/cause inconvenince).
Fuumei said:Ok, I understand this type of sentence now (I beileve). By using "に" and these special types of verbs "furu" for instance, you can't translate it as "i fall by snow". But "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" it just signifies the object/person doing the regrettable action(which in this case, always ends in the passive form."られる/られた")
So in short, I believe I have learned that the passive does not take a direct object "o" unless it is what we've been calling it "Suffering/Reward". Or have I yet again thought too hard?
Fuumei said:Two final things:
雪が降られる <- this is not grammatically correct unless it was in the past tense form "rareta", correct?
Fuumei said:The best interpretation for "Iwarete ite" and "tsukurarete ite" would be "has been said" and "has been made/has been being made" correct?
Fuumei said:Ok, sorry for making you type out a novel undrentide. It's late and I hope I made myself clear by what I typed.
I mean sentences like:undrentide said:Hmmm, I think you got it right...
I'm not sure "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" part,
undrentide said:To me, it looks incorrect whatever the tense is.
It sounds as if something other than snow is falling and doing some "harm" to the snow...
雪に降られる if it followed the standard rules of a passive formation where inanimate actors take the で particle （電話で起こされる） would naturally come out 雪で降られる。But ふる is a common exception and the usage is identical in English to adversely "Be snowed on" or idiomatically are/will be "caught in the snow." 雪が降られる and 雪を降られる neither make sense to me as long as the snow cannot fall onto itself or something else fall onto the snow.雪が降られる
Sorry to come back to this awful sentence again..
Is this because in the sentence: 雪が降られる that the particles "Ga" and "o" are interchangeable? Just trying to wrap my head around these particles gives me headaches.
There is no set construction that depends on only the past being acceptable that I'm familiar with.Two final things:
雪が降られる <- this is not grammatically correct unless it was in the past tense form "rareta", correct?
My book hasn't touched much on the subject of "Transitive/Intransitive" verbs. I know transitive can use a direct object, and the Intransitive can't.Elizabeth said:Does this make the English you feel should be behind 雪が降られる any clearer or more translatable ? Otherwise, sorry for such a lame attempt...
Glenn said:Yes, your "pushing" sentences are right.
The ga-phrase of a passive comes from the object position of an active sentence, and 降る isn't a transitive verb, so it doesn't take objects. Therefore, there is no such sentence as 雨が降られた, unless for some reason you are showing respect to the rain, in which case it would probably be お雨が降られた anyway. Does that straighten things out?
The first - "Was scolded"Glenn said:I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.
I think "I am scolded by my teacher" is more parallel to the structure of the first one (English example), but other than that it looks fine. Maybe 先生によく叱られる would be more natural a sentence, but that's a different issue.
That was always the presentation in my texts too. No other organization is meaningful or logical. Transitive/Intransitive in chapters 7 or 8 and passives in 15 or 16.Glenn said:I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.
Glenn said:I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.
Elizabeth said:The first - "Was scolded"
Second I think is most naturally "Will be scolded"
Hopefully you can clarify this for me:Elizabeth said:The first - "Was scolded"
Second I think is most naturally "Will be scolded"