Maybe I will just forget japanese

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Like I said I guess some people might learn better from textbooks, my no know. *shrugs* But I know what works for me and what has worked for people I know that are fluent in other languages.

 

[Elizabeth]

Like I said I guess some people might learn better from textbooks, my no know. *shrugs* But I know what works for me and what has worked for people I know that are fluent in other languages.

Please help us out in the Japanese forum if you get a chance and let us know how it's going.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

I can't see Japanese characters on my computer (*mutter*mutter*mutter*) so I'm not sure I'd be too much help. And I'm also STILL not very good at reading yet...eh heh must needs work on that

 

[DoctorP]

Hyde...I wasn't saying that it couldn't be done, I was just reiterating that using your way coupled with either a class or a book or both would be best. Especially when we are speaking of someone who doesn't have great access to native speakers. Now, if you are immersed in the culture/society, as many of us are, then your way becomes much easier.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Dude, I don't really have access to native speakers either. I've learned through movies, Anime, TV, music etc. I only know one Japanese woman (whom I don't see often) and one second gen. half Japanese girl who's not completely fluent...and I don't talk to her much anyway.

 

[Mike Cash]

A couple more points:

Learning solely through your method, especially when you don't have access to the other half of the correction feedback loop (native speakers with whom you interact), one picks up quite a bit which one quite naturally thinks has been picked up and is being used correctly, while having no real way to know if it is or not. After all, if you thought you were doing something wrong you wouldn't do it. Having no check on it it means that one gets some stuff right and into the mix has a fair amount of incorrectly grokked self-created mishmash of misunderstood constructions.

Also, on what criteria do you base your self-assessment of what degree of success you have had picking up Japanese this way?

Keep in mind that, as Elizabeth pointed out, it's a great way to pick up on vocabulary and pronunciation, but it is much more difficult to pick up grammatical structures. Many people tend to want to gloss over or blow off entirely grammatical elements. By the time they come to realize that their lack of syntax not only makes them sound stupid but also makes their speech hard to decipher and engenders many misunderstandings their bad habits are usually so firmly entrenched that they couldn't be blasted out with dynamite.

Some of the more typical problems among those learning Japanese this way are serious trouble with particles and verb tenses, problems with active/passive verb choice, inability to adjust speech levels to the situation, and the idea that throwing lots of slang and dialect into their speech will cover their defects like frosting covers a birthday cake.

 

[Duo]

From my personal experience i shall say the following... you can only learn a language through TV, movies and such only if you are very very young 5 -9 years old and are exposed to it daily. Other than that you need to be in an environment where the language is being spoken by natives so that you can be fluent.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

My Drama Treacher learned Spanish through watching the Spanish network.
I'm not saying my way is fool-proof. But honestly most of the time I can hear when I say something wrong and if not at once eventually I hear it. It just doesn't sound right. I have an audio memory. I know whole movies (both English and Japanese) by heart, my memory just seems to work through my ears. When learning lines for plays I have to record them on tapes and play them back sometimes to memorise them.
And people who think grammer isn't important have no beezwax learning a language in the first place. Grammer is VERY important. I never said otherwise. I just said tripping on it isn't pratical. And particles are actually easier to pick up from simply listening. The very IDEA of learning particles through a book makes me ill :eek2:. Tried learning Japanese particles that way once... nearly bashed my head in :banghead:
It's easier to see grammatical structure when listening to the language being spoken rather then writen but again this could just be because I learn through my ears not my eyes. *shrugs*

 

[Elizabeth]

I can't see Japanese characters on my computer (*mutter*mutter*mutter*) so I'm not sure I'd be too much help. And I'm also STILL not very good at reading yet...eh heh must needs work on that

Shinpai shinai you ni....Computer ni Japanese language support ga haitteinakute mo roomaji wo tsukatte Nihongo forum wo tetsudatte kudasaine. Keredomo kono forum sankasha no nihongoryoku wa samazama dakara, hotondo eigo demo kakikonde imasuyo. Hyde-san wa namihazureta sainou ga arumitai desune.
Douzo yoroshiku onegaiashimasu. Watashi no nihongo wa eiga, anima no serifu no you ni kikoeru no kanaaa?

 

[GoldCoinLover]

A couple more points:

Learning solely through your method, especially when you don't have access to the other half of the correction feedback loop (native speakers with whom you interact), one picks up quite a bit which one quite naturally thinks has been picked up and is being used correctly, while having no real way to know if it is or not. After all, if you thought you were doing something wrong you wouldn't do it. Having no check on it it means that one gets some stuff right and into the mix has a fair amount of incorrectly grokked self-created mishmash of misunderstood constructions.

Also, on what criteria do you base your self-assessment of what degree of success you have had picking up Japanese this way?

Keep in mind that, as Elizabeth pointed out, it's a great way to pick up on vocabulary and pronunciation, but it is much more difficult to pick up grammatical structures. Many people tend to want to gloss over or blow off entirely grammatical elements. By the time they come to realize that their lack of syntax not only makes them sound stupid but also makes their speech hard to decipher and engenders many misunderstandings their bad habits are usually so firmly entrenched that they couldn't be blasted out with dynamite.

Some of the more typical problems among those learning Japanese this way are serious trouble with particles and verb tenses, problems with active/passive verb choice, inability to adjust speech levels to the situation, and the idea that throwing lots of slang and dialect into their speech will cover their defects like frosting covers a birthday cake.

I agree particles are the hardest part. I have trouble when to use 'wa' or the object marker 'wo'.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

A basic textbook will explain to you exactly how to say these things...very easy to get them right the first time you try them if you follow the steps.

Yeah, I'm prettys ure I can prounice it correctly.

o = oh. a = ah. u = oo o = oh, r = l (but not really), etc

I believe orange in japanese is in bakakana, spelled Orenjiiro. or, perhaps orenjii, ﾆ棚ﾆ椎槌停?愴淡窶堋｢ﾂー

 

[GoldCoinLover]

Shinpai shinai you ni....Computer ni Japanese language support ga haitteinakute mo roomaji wo tsukatte Nihongo forum wo tetsudatte kudasaine. Keredomo kono forum sankasha no nihongoryoku wa samazama dakara, hotondo eigo demo kakikonde imasuyo. Hyde-san wa namihazureta sainou ga arumitai desune.
Douzo yoroshiku onegaiashimasu. Watashi no nihongo wa eiga, anima no serifu no you ni kikoeru no kanaaa?

(Please, kindly) (will you remember me?) please. My japanese movie, anime speech, will you listen to kana? Hmm. Oh well. My grammar sucks too
ﾂ心窶掏窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢you窶堙可、ﾂ ﾆ坦ﾆ停?愴致ﾆ耽窶堙俄?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪsupport窶堋ｪ窶堙坂?堋｢窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙遺?堋ｭ窶堙??堙?ﾆ陳債ーﾆ筑ﾆ淡窶堙ｰﾂ浸窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堙
窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪBBS窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃｨ窶彖窶堙≫?堙??堋ｭ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｳ窶堋｢窶堙仰。ﾂ蹴窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?窶堋ｱ窶堙沓BS窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ窶堙｡窶堙娯?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｫ窶堙ｦ窶堋ｭ窶堙坂?堋ｳ窶堙懌?堋ｴ窶堙懌?堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶堙吮?堙??堙ｱ窶堙??ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶堙??堙?ﾂ鞘?倪?堋ｫﾂ最ｾ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。Hydte窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堙坂?｢ﾃ?ﾅ?O窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽﾂ催銀?拿窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙昶?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。ﾂ。窶堙??堋､窶堋ｼ窶堙ｦ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｨ窶堙銀?堋ｪ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙坂?ｰf窶ｰﾃｦﾂ、窶堋?窶堙俄?堙懌?堙娯?佚､ﾅｽﾅ停?堙軽ou窶堙俄?｢ﾂｷ窶堋ｱ窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?ｰﾂｼ窶督ｼﾂ？

 

[doinkies]

Actually that sentence is more like "I wonder, does my Japanese sound like lines from a movie or from an anime?" When かな is at the end of a sentence like that, it means something similar to "I wonder". Elizabeth's post would be written in Japanese like this:
心配しないように．．．コンピュータに日本語サポートが
入っていなくてもローマ字を使って日本語フォーラムを手伝ってくださいね。
けれどもこのフォーラム参加者の日本語力は様々だから、
ほとんど英語でも書き込んでいますよ。
Hydeさんは並外れた才能があるみたいですね。
どうぞよろしくおねがいします。
私の日本語は映画、アニメのセリフのように聞こえるのかな？

 

[GoldCoinLover]

Wow, that is confusing! I will be still more persistant!

 

[Gaijin 06]

Grammer is VERY important.

What about speeling?

 

[Mike Cash]

As someone who is a member of what apparently was the last generation of Americans to be taught spelling in elementary school, I find the spelling I encounter on the internet to be appalling. It's almost enough to move one to tears.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

You'd have to be stupid to think basic things such as spelling and grammer are not improtant. They are very important. I just think learning them should be put off 'til one knows a good amount of the spoken language. Children don't learn to spell in their mother tongue for YEARS after they learn to speak. I think a foriegn language should always be treated the same as a mother language. It is natural and makes sense...to me, anyway.

And yes, I know, my spelling is God-awful in English. Honestly, I can spell better in Romaji then English. It's sad.

I agree particles are the hardest part. I have trouble when to use 'wa' or the object marker 'wo'.

I get "wa" and "no" mixed up for some reason. I'm always saying "Watashi no" instead of "wa" and "wa" instead of "no". I blame Gackt and "Vanilla" for this. But honestly, "Boku wa kimi no Vanilla" It makes my head hurt. I swear, it's the chorus that got the words mixed up in my head. Damn, you Gackt! *shakes fist at Gackt*
But in all serious-ness, particles are a PAIN in the @$$ no matter which "method" you use to learn them.

 

[Elizabeth]

I get "wa" and "no" mixed up for some reason. I'm always saying "Watashi no" instead of "wa" and "wa" instead of "no". I blame Gackt and "Vanilla" for this. But honestly, "Boku wa kimi no Vanilla" It makes my head hurt. I swear, it's the chorus that got the words mixed up in my head. Damn, you Gackt! *shakes fist at Gackt*
But in all serious-ness, particles are a PAIN in the @$$ no matter which "method" you use to learn them.

The most obvious trap in picking them up this way, though, is of course the extent to which particles are dropped in daily life and conversation is only inferrable through context. Simply memorizing and parroting back chunks of text from a movie or anime is going to make absolute nonsense (or no sense) outside of the original setting and dialogue. I'm not saying that is how you sound, it's just a very real danger area.

 

[Mike Cash]

".....basic things such as spelling and grammer....."

That, my friend, is priceless.

 

[Elizabeth]

Japanese kids start learning spelling, and kanji, in kindergarten or first grade, as do Americans by which time they can also for the most part speak grammatically -- through constant feedback and real world practice. Even if they sat in front of the television most of the day, and learned it a la Hyde, they would still be surrounded by it both visually and aurally and learn it without making mistakes like confusing 'wa' and 'no' that are completely distinct in the spoken or written language.

 

[ArmandV]

And yes, I know, my spelling is God-awful in English.

Well, at least you admit it.

"Highly inteliegent persinel on dooty to serve you."

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

The most obvious trap in picking them up this way, though, is of course the extent to which particles are dropped in daily life and conversation is only inferrable through context. Simply memorizing and parroting back chunks of text from a movie or anime is going to make absolute nonsense (or no sense) outside of the original setting and dialogue. I'm not saying that is how you sound, it's just a very real danger area.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't "quote" when speaking in Japanese. I learn words through hearing them (in the context of film/Anime/music 'tis true) but I construct my own sentences out of them. It's no different then how you learn your mother tongue. Sure you might end up saying a line from a film/Anime in response to someone because it's either the only thing you can say or apropriate. Quite frankly there aren't enough words out there to make it possible to NEVER quote or say something that someone before you has already said.

Japanese kids start learning spelling, and kanji, in kindergarten or first grade, as do Americans by which time they can also for the most part speak grammatically -- through constant feedback and real world practice. Even if they sat in front of the television most of the day, and learned it a la Hyde, they would still be surrounded by it both visually and aurally and learn it without making mistakes like confusing 'wa' and 'no' that are completely distinct in the spoken or written language

No matter what the language it's easy to ge things mixed up, even things that have nothing to with/sound like each other.

 

[Damicci]

Mike I would not be concerned with spelling on the internet. Everybody makes mistakes such as mistyping and what not. I find myself making foreigner mistakes now mixing whole and hole or patients and patience in sentences.

I got some cd's for learning Japanese, Yan-san and The people of Japan. Old school stuff but very good. PM your address GCL and I can send you a copy on DVD.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

".....basic things such as spelling and grammer....."

That, my friend, is priceless.

I can't help it that English may as well be my second language. Me talk pretty one day.

 

[Damicci]

I think you misunderstand me. I don't "quote" when speaking in Japanese. I learn words through hearing them (in the context of film/Anime/music 'tis true) but I construct my own sentences out of them. It's no different then how you learn your mother tongue. Sure you might end up saying a line from a film/Anime in response to someone because it's either the only thing you can say or apropriate. Quite frankly there aren't enough words out there to make it possible to NEVER quote or say something that someone before you has already said.

I've found in Japanese there many ways to say things, I think even more so than in english. That in itself is one HUGE obstacle for learning Japanese. A common and usual way to say anything.