Question Lesson 9 & 10: The End

[Zizka]

(1)に/へ destination
(2)から after
(3)の connector between classes and afternoon.
(4)I don't know this one. Unless the classes is the direct object of 終わる (を).
(5)まで until
(6)と and
(7)が indicates the subject of the action
(8)に adverbial as in "study separately". It could also describe the manner the action is done with で.
(9)で where the action takes place
Comments:
(4)was は but I don't know why. Likely topical.
(7)は contrastive.
(8)の connector: separate building. I didn't know you could connect an adjective with a noun with の.
*
Some further explanations about why it's が/は here would really be helpful. Since it's still my pet peeve.

 

[Zizka]

(1)の connector
(2)は topical Silly mistake, "her" name so it's possessive.
(3)が new information (not sure about this one, likely wrong) So は topical of course.
(4)と called...
(5)の So is this a case where I link my adjective with の again like in the previous sentence with ''separate/different'' building? I'll go with that as it worked in the previous sentence so logically it should work in this one.

 

[Zizka]

(1)の connector to 文法, "grammar"
(2) の connector to 授業, "class"
(3) は topical
(4)に indicates when an action takes place.
(5)に indicates the frequency of an action. も Don't know why.
(6)が existence of something. も Don't know why.

 

[Zizka]

(1)の connector
(2)で composition に...? As in what?
(3)は topical
(4)(5)(6)と and... や... this makes no sense to me whatsoever. How am I suppose to tell from the sentence that the list is non-exhaustive? It could be an inclusive list: In my class there are x, y, z and that's it. How am I suppose to guess that there are other nationalities as well thus making it non-exhaustive? There's just no way at first glance.
(7)も and also Chinese

 

[Zizka]

(1)の connector
(2)の connector. Here I was tempted to put を but then it struck me that this is likely a case of of 「勉強するクラス」being just one single self-defined noun. No, it was を.
(3)(4)では seems like the right choice.
(5) と and...
(6)と normally we don't end up a list with と but I can't think of anything else here. の is the right answer as in the study of flower arrangement and tea ceremony.
(7) を this one reminds me of this:

勉強する is a -suru verb, so takes the object which is indicates by を. On the other hand, 勉強 also can be a noun, so there can be another expression 勉強をする in the same meaning. する is a verb here. 勉強 is a noun in 勉強をする, so の is needed to connect 日本語 and 勉強. It's like "to study Japanese" vs. "to do study of Japanese" in English.

(8)の possessive
(9)は contrastive
(10)の connector of "flower arrangement" and "teacher".
(11)から cause/reason
(12)は constrastive (now it'd better not be が for new information).
That one went well, I'm pleased.I can understand (6) but not so much (2), I thought my reasoning was good there.

 

[Zizka]

(1) の: connector
(2) を: this is the same as the previous exercise so I'll get it this time.
(3)(4)には: where the action takes place and topical. I hesitated with the answer で for this one, the place where the action takes place. Should've followed my instinct I guess!
(5)の I'd say connector as in "about the Meiji restoration".
(6)ついて, I've seen that before. It's the same as in #10. So I'll go with the same answer. に. It was the reverse: に and の. So の to connect the "book" and "about" for (6). And に after 明治維新 as in? Don't know. It's weird, I thought it was the exact same thing as #10 as both had ついて followed by a blank.
(7)を: direct object of 読んでいます.

 

[Zizka]

(1)に: time when an action take place. は: topical
(2)の: connector
(3)で: indicate where the action of eating takes place.
(4)と: with
(5)に: I think that's a set phrase: 一緒に.
(6)と: and も although I thought saying "and also" would be grammatically correct to be honest.
(7)も: also/both

 

[Zizka]

(1)に: time when action takes place
(2)は: topical, same thing as in #7. が as it turns out, go figure.
(3)まで: I'm tempted to use まで as in "until"... と... no clue why.
(4)と: and...
(5)は: topical と so this time we were suppose to make the full list with と. I guess you need to take a wild guess with that situation.
(6)に: together
(7) へ/に: destination

 

[Zizka]

I'll leave this one here and finish later in case someone has an advice as to how to take this one on.

 

[bentenmusume]

For #7...

(4)was は but I don't know why. Likely topical.

Are you sure this isn't が? は doesn't quite seem right here, as it would "rule" the entire sentence, where this seems like a simple clause.

(Incidentally, in the phrase "until class ends," "class" is not the direct object of "end.")

(7)は contrastive.

More likely to be a simple topic. There is no sense that 私ときみ子さん are being contrasted with other students.

(8)の connector: separate building. I didn't know you could connect an adjective with a noun with の.

別々 isn't really an "adjective", though it's serving an adjectival function here. This usage is kind of similar to 他の that you saw elsewhere. You can consider them "adjectival nouns" of a sort that connect to nouns with の.

(5)の So is this a case where I link my adjective with の again like in the previous sentence with ''separate/different'' building? I'll go with that as it worked in the previous sentence so logically it should work in this one.

Yes, though again, 女 is a noun, not an adjective.
The usage is closer to apposition, I'd say, but it would be better to just think of 女の人 (like 男の人） that you saw before as a set phrase meaning "a woman."

(5)に indicates the frequency of an action.

週に五時間にあります is not valid.

You're already marking the period "when" with 週に. 五時間 is describing an extent, not specifying when something occurs. The valid particles here are no particle (similar to 本を3冊買いました "I bought three books", in which "book" is marked as the direct object of "buy") or も, which can follow a number/counter to indicate that that quantity is a lot (i.e. 本を１０冊も買いました "I bought TEN WHOLE BOOKS! (implying that that's a lot of books)"

(6)が existence of something. も Don't know why.

が suggests that something is exhaustive. Since this is explicitly about having one type of class and then having another *too, も makes more sense here.

(2)で composition に...? As in what?

で marks the location of an action. います (to exist） is not considered an action.

(4)(5)(6)と and... や... this makes no sense to me whatsoever. How am I suppose to tell from the sentence that the list is non-exhaustive? It could be an inclusive list: In my class there are x, y, z and that's it.

I think you mean "exhaustive", not "inclusive."
The given translation says "whose nationalities include," which implies that there are other nationalities as well, not "there are these, and that's it." (If you said, "My favorite types of Japanese food include sushi and tempura", would that mean that you don't like any other Japanese dishes?)

(2)の connector. Here I was tempted to put を but then it struck me that this is likely a case of of 「勉強するクラス」being just one single self-defined noun. No, it was を.

This is the same construction as the example you cite for (7). You can say 文化を勉強する or 文化の勉強をする, and this is the latter.

文化の勉強する is not valid (if anything, in a relative clause that would be equivalent to 文化が勉強する, "Culture studies something", which makes no sense.)

I'll try to get to the rest after unless someone else gets to them first.

 

[Zizka]

(1)は: the usual は+...です structure.
(2)の: possessive.
(3)は: contrastive
(4)が: this is new information
(5)から: after as it's used with the ～て form of the verb.
(6)に: time when an action takes place.
(7)から: from...
(8)の: possessive as in "visitors from a foreign country".
(9)を: direct object of 会って
(10)から: reason/cause
...
I'll go with that for now and I'll come back to finish it as jt_ just posted a reply which I want to read.

 

[bentenmusume]

(3)(4)には: where the action takes place

"Where the action takes place" isn't に.
It's 図書館で本を読みました, not 図書館に本を読みました.

Even with the double particle, the rule governing に vs. で still applies.

(5)の I'd say connector as in "about the Meiji restoration".

のついて is not valid. As I might have mentioned before, you can think of ～について as a compound particle meaning "about". You won't see any other particles before ついて in this usage.

(6)ついて, I've seen that before. It's the same as in #10. So I'll go with the same answer. に. It was the reverse: に and の. So の to connect the "book" and "about" for (6). And に after 明治維新 as in? Don't know. It's weird, I thought it was the exact same thing as #10 as both had ついて followed by a blank.

It's not weird. に connects 明治維新 with ついて (as above, you can consider ～について as a single compound particle). If you want to connect the modifying phrase 明治維新について to the noun 本 the answer has to be の. This is similar to 日本での生活 ("[my] life in Japan") and other constructions you've seen before, where a noun/particle combination is modifying another noun.

(1)に: time when an action take place. は: topical

お昼に isn't necessarily invalid when talking about time, but this is essentially using お昼 as a stand-in for 昼ご飯. It's talking about lunch as a meal, so は is more natural (it's also the topic of everything that follows, so it makes sense that it's the widely "ruling" は rather than a more strictly binding particle like に)

(6)と: and も although I thought saying "and also" would be grammatically correct to be honest.

と is not necessarily invalid, but note that the nuance is different.

In AもBもあって , both A and B are marked by も as the subjects of ある, meaning "There's both A and B..." (with a nuance emphasizing the variety).

In AとBもあって, the noun phrase AとB is being marked with も, so it specifically means "There is also A and B (in addition to other things)."

If you wanted to say "The cafeteria serves mostly Japanese food, but there's also Western and Chinese food (i.e. in addition to Japanese)" then that would be 洋食と中華もあって.

(2)は: topical, same thing as in #7. が as it turns out, go figure.

This goes back to what Toritoribeさん said about the topic "ruling" the entire sentence. If you make this は, it implies the entire sentence is talking about class. But it isn't; after the comma, class's role in the sentence is done, and the topic is completely something else. So "class" is simply the grammatical subject of 終わる (hence が).

(3)まで: I'm tempted to use まで as in "until"... と... no clue why.

I'm a bit surprised that your book is springing this on you here, because this is a completely different use of ～と that is considered a conditional. Maybe look up と in your Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and read up on the conditional usage where と follows a plain form verb.

Note that if it were まで, that would mean something like "Until class ends at 4 o'clock, Kimiko and I go home," which doesn't really make sense at all.

(5)は: topical と so this time we were suppose to make the full list with と. I guess you need to take a wild guess with that situation.

Honestly, きみ子さんと私は一緒にうちに帰ります is perfectly valid and sounds more natural to me than きみ子さんと私とうちに帰ります。

Are you sure your answer key says that both (4) and (5) have to be と?

 

[Zizka]

#7 was が, you're right.
#14(5) was は I misread the answer so I was right too.

I'm a bit surprised that your book is springing this on you here, because this is a completely different use of ～と that is considered a conditional. Maybe look up と in your Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and read up on the conditional usage where と follows a plain form verb.

I've read something about that before. The exercise difficulty is pretty inconsistent I find. Like the question with the classes *including* such and such nationalities which I felt was a bit of a trap more than anything else.

I want to discuss this before moving on to the rest of your explanations.

This goes back to what Toritoribeさん said about the topic "ruling" the entire sentence. If you make this は, it implies the entire sentence is talking about class. But it isn't; after the comma, class's role in the sentence is done, and the topic is completely something else. So "class" is simply the grammatical subject of 終わる (hence が).

In this case the sentence wouldn't have a topical は at all. That felt out of place. I've been used to most sentences starting with は at some point in time.
So basically, if I put は at the beginning of the sentence, I need first read the whole sentence to make sure everything else is related to whatever I've associated は with? Is that what you guys are trying to say? If so, then it's simple and I understand it.

In AもBもあって , both A and B are marked by も as the subjects of ある, meaning "There's both A and B..." (with a nuance emphasizing the variety).

In AとBもあって, the noun phrase AとB is being marked with も, so it specifically means "There is also A and B (in addition to other things)."

AとBもあって = there is also that and that...
AもBもあって = the is both that and that...
The difference is really minor come to think about it.

#87jt_, Yesterday at 20:47
New
Zizka said:
(3)(4)には: where the action takes place
"Where the action takes place" isn't に.
It's 図書館で本を読みました, not 図書館に本を読みました.

Even with the double particle, the rule governing に vs. で still applies.

Zizka said:
(5)の I'd say connector as in "about the Meiji restoration".
のついて is not valid. As I might have mentioned before, you can think of ～について as a compound particle meaning "about". You won't see any other particles before ついて in this usage.

Zizka said:
(6)ついて, I've seen that before. It's the same as in #10. So I'll go with the same answer. に. It was the reverse: に and の. So の to connect the "book" and "about" for (6). And に after 明治維新 as in? Don't know. It's weird, I thought it was the exact same thing as #10 as both had ついて followed by a blank.
It's not weird. に connects 明治維新 with ついて (as above, you can consider ～について as a single compound particle).

By the way I couldn't find について anywhere in the beginner dictionary. It's not in the glossary, might be in the intermediate dictionary... and yes it is. I'll read it there.
As for the other quotes, I understand and have read them. I meant に as in direction of the action, not where the action takes place, I misspoke.

 

[Zizka]

I'm going to give this one a shot again.
(1)は: topical. I've read the rest of the sentence and it's mostly about dinner except for the middle part. Does that invalidate は as a topic? I'd like to think not.
(2)の: clear cut possessive, no question there.
(3)は: I'd say contrastive は. Hear me out: the topic stops being about dinner and starts being about the father. It's not が as in new information being provided about the initial topic (dinner) either.
(4)が: new information about the father and his situation.
(5)から: this indicates "after" since it comes right after the ～て form of the verb.
(6)に: indicates a point in time (that's the part I'm unsure of). Good answer was も. I think I'll need to read up on も as I often seem to miss the right answer with that particle.
(7)(8): から/の I wish I had been exposed more to compound particles beforehand. One of them is a connector の for sure in order to connect "guest" and "foreign". The other is から as in from foreign country. Which one comes first though! I'll go with から/の.
(9)を: direct object of 会って. That's と as in with the people. I thought I'd be "meet what➡the foreign people".
(10)から: I'd say this is the reason why he can't be at dinner.
(11)の: I looked up 普段 and the dictionary says it may take the particle の. は contrastive I guess.
(12)と: with...
(13)に: typical 「一緒に」.
(14)を: direct object of 食べること.
(15)が: I think this is part of the set phrase "there are times"=ことが+ある。It was ことは. This is also a phrase, it's mentioned in the dictionary.
Still, 11/15 is pretty good, 73%. Not bad for such a long sentence.

 

[Toritoribe]

I thought it was only with 行く but really it's with any movement verbs.

Actually, other verbs than 行く and 来る are rarely used in this expression.

Also, I don't really understand this:

Oh, sorry. My bad. I meant 会社勤めの男の人達 means (male) office workers in general.

In this case the sentence wouldn't have a topical は at all. That felt out of place.

Notice that the subject of #12 and #13 are both わたし. As I wrote previously, the topic even rules the next sentence until the the topic is changed. The topic in the last sentence of #11 わたしはいろいろ教えてもらいます still rules those sentences (i.e., the topic is still わたし also in #12 and #13).

So basically, if I put は at the beginning of the sentence, I need first read the whole sentence to make sure everything else is related to whatever I've associated は with? Is that what you guys are trying to say? If so, then it's simple and I understand it.

Think about the difference in the sentences below.

彼が部屋に入ってきたとき寝ていました。
彼は部屋に入ってきたとき寝ていました。

First of all, the subjects of the two clauses, the one who entered the room and the one who was sleeping, are not the same person since people can't enter a room while they are sleeping. In the former sentence, he entered the room and the speaker was sleeping at that time. On the other hand, he was sleeping and the speaker the room in the latter. (Another person than the speaker can be possible when it's obvious from the context, of course.) Thus, the topic is usually the subject of the main verb at the end of the sentence, unless the subject or new topic is stated, just like 会社の車が迎えに来ます。 or 秘書が会社の車で迎えに来ます。.

There are exceptions, though. For instance, the subject of 思います is the speaker in 彼は来ると思います. See the following post.
筆者は友人と話... / 自分はなぜ... / も / 玲姉 | Japan Forum

 

[Zizka]

(1)の: possessive
(2)は: topical
(8)に: the usual, no need to comment on this one anymore.
(9)を: direct object of "drinking".
*
Ok, @Toritoribe has replied so I'll go study/read his reply and come back to this later.

 

[Toritoribe]

#15-3
It's more likely just the topic marker.

4
It's the subject marker. This is a verb sentence, so が is 中立叙述の"が".

 

[Zizka]

Notice that the subject of #12 and #13 are both わたし. As I wrote previously, the topic even rules the next sentence until the the topic is changed. The topic in the last sentence of #11 わたしはいろいろ教えてもらいます still rules those sentences (i.e., the topic is still わたし also in #12 and #13).

So that's why. Makes sense.
Regarding は/が explanation, I guess time will tell if I've understood the explanation.

 

[Zizka]

Could I get a hint regarding the compound particle (3)(4) please?

 

[Toritoribe]

夜九時ごろ is the time the father returns home. What is the particle to indicate this kind of time? Another particle that can be attached to the first one is not so many.
e.g.
は: for topic or contrasting
日本の歴史を勉強するクラスでは

も: too/also
アメリカにもあります

の: to connect to a noun that follows it
外国からのお客さん

と/や: for listing examples
京都からと大阪からと
中国からやインドからや

だけ/しか: meaning "only"
日本にだけある
彼からしか手紙が来ない

より: meaning "than"
大阪までの距離は京都までより近い

Think what is appropriate there. (Notice that うち is not a particles there, as you might already know.)

 

[Zizka]

Well, に is to indicate when the action takes place.
As for the rest, I'm really not sure. The rest of the sentence isn't about the 「夜九時ごろ」so it's not は.
It's not と or や either, no examples here.
It's not も as in also either. It doesn't work here either.
It's not だけ/しか either.
It's not より either, there's no comparison either.
うち means house so there's no の connection here either.
So I'm still unsure.

 

[Toritoribe]

The answer is は as a contrastive marker. The main topic きみ子さんのお父さん is already stated, so this is actually the sub-topic, as same as わたしは日本は初めてですが in #4.
Question - Lesson 9 & 10: The End | Japan Forum

As I wrote there, the sub-topic often has a contrastive nuance. It emphasizes that he returns home not so late, so they can drink tea or eat sweets together.

 

[Zizka]

Is there a way to better identify subtopics? I often misunderstand them. Is there anything I should look for? I thought that は ruled a sentence unless another は stated otherwise but it doesn't seem to be the case in that sentence so I'm sincerely confused and any hints would be very useful to me.

 

[Toritoribe]

The main topic is often a person, or thing that can be a subject. The sub-topic also can be a person when it's compared with another parson(s), but it's often time or location or like that. See #12 日本の歴史を勉強するクラスでは and #13 お昼はたいてい学校の食堂でお友達と一緒に食べます。. The subjects of these sentence are わたし, as I already explained, so actually 日本の歴史を勉強するクラスでは and お昼は are sub-topics, and the main topic わたし is omitted since it's obvious from the context.

#12 （わたしは）日本の歴史を勉強するクラスでは、明治維新についての本を読んでいます。
#13 （わたしは）お昼はたいてい学校の食堂でお友達と一緒に食べます。

 

[Zizka]

but it's often time or location or like that.

So that's what I should probably focus on. A subtopic は=contrastive は and they are often used for time and location. That's one way to set it apart I imagine.

To get back at my sentence.
(1)の: possessive
(2)は: topical
(3)(4)には
(5)へ/に: destination
(7)で: みんな seems to be as much as a set phrase as 「一緒に」.
(8)に: the usual, no need to comment on this one anymore.
(9)を: direct object of "drinking".
*
(6) I think the answer is "after", as in after he returns home we do so and so. When から is preceded by a ~て form of a verb, it expresses the meaning of "after". In this case however the verbal phrase is:
帰って来ます。Can I still pull off the meaning of after in that circumstance?