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Question Lesson 9 & 10: The End

Toritoribe

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It's "because". It should be 帰って来てから to mean "after", as you already know. The logic behind it is that the father comes home, so we can drink or eat together. It's not so strongly expresses the reason/cause.
e.g.
隣にいますから、用があったら呼んでください。
I'm in the next room, so please call me when you want me.
 

Zizka

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Well I was wondering if it could still work if there was 来ます there in a non-~て form but I wasn't sure so this clears that one up.
Regarding (10), I'd say を as 菓子 is the direct object of "to eat".
Only the thing is that the translation says: "and" so I'm wondering if it'd be ok. I considered も but you don't eat tea so it wouldn't work.
Does the だら that follows "drink" and "eat" play the role of "and" is some way?
 

Toritoribe

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Not だら but だり.
~たり/だり is used listing verbs/adjectives as same as と or や for nouns, so the examples in the list are two actions "お茶を飲む" and "お菓子を食べる". If the list is for the objects of 食べる, も/や can be used (e.g. 果物やお菓子も食べたり).
However, お菓子も食べたり actually works perfectly fine there, since も can have another meaning "even". In fact, も is sometimes used when there is no other example than the mentioned one in real conversations (and it sometimes doesn't even have a nuance of "even" so strongly).
 

Zizka

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Strangely enough, I'm not getting the "even" tone from the translation.
upload_2018-7-28_12-8-38-png.27184

upload_2018-7-28_12-10-41-png.27185

(10) も (or を)? Could both work?
(11)の: The issue here is to understand how こと works in conjunction with 学校. I looked up こと in my dictionary and found out that の can be used with こと to express: "about"
(12)と . So the verb here is 「話します」. 学校のこと is what is being discussed. Could it be a direct object of 「話します」. It somehow doesn't feel quite right. I think it's と as in the quotation と.
(13)の: We've talk about he particle used to relate younger. I brothers/sisters... etc... If I recall correctly, it was に. I couldn't find anything about this in my dictionary however. I think here it's の because it relates the younger brother of Kimiko. Not sure though!
(14)は: contrastive
Comments:
upload_2018-7-29_13-19-13.png

(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)(9)(10)(11)(13): I got right.
(12)I didn't get this right although I got it in the first place. Should've followed my instincts!
(14)Again... も. Here it makes sense however as in "even the younger brother participated".
 

Zizka

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upload_2018-7-29_13-29-26.png

upload_2018-7-29_13-29-47.png

(1)に as in frequency...
(2)と: with/and...
(3)は: topical

(4)まで: until...
Comments:
が、も、も、for the first three. I don't get it at all. が I can somehow imagine. も, も however... not so much. How do you determine when "and" becomes "too"?
 

Zizka

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upload_2018-7-29_13-39-9.png

upload_2018-7-29_13-39-28.png

(1)は: topical.
(2)を: direct object.
(3)に: time when an action takes place.
(4)は: contrastive
(5)が: see here the topic remains the same, it's just new information so this should be right.
(6)を: direct object.
(7)に: time when an action takes place.
(8)?
*Actually I'm not sure here, could I get a hint please?
 

Zizka

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So let's think about that for a minute. The sentence can be broken down into two independent clauses.
Clause A:
upload_2018-7-29_15-54-37.png

Let's start with clause A then.
(1)は: topical, the sentence is about 「きみ子さん」.
(2)が:英語, or "English" in English, seems like the direct object of わかる, "to understand". I looked up sample sentences and found out that を is never used with わかる. Instead, I decided to use が.
(3)に:when an action takes place, in this case, when きみ子さん doesn't understand English.
(4)は: it's say contrastive. This time around, there's a topic switch going from きみ子さん➡わたし.
Clause (B):
upload_2018-7-29_16-3-42.png

(5)が: I hesitated between が and は.
(6)が: same reason as in Clause A.

(7)に: same thing as in Clause A.
(8)も: because she too teaches the speaker.

Comments:
upload_2018-7-29_16-7-47.png

(1),(3),(4),(7),(8) were all incorrect. This is a sentence which will require further discussion for sure.
 

bentenmusume

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Starting with #16:

Zizka said:
Strangely enough, I'm not getting the "even" tone from the translation.
Could you explain what you mean by this?

But I agree that the translation is not perfect. As Toritoribe-san says, から is the best fit for (6), but the translation kind of obscures this by saying "*when* Kimiko's father comes home."

Zizka said:
(11)の: The issue here is to understand how こと works in conjunction with 学校. I looked up こと in my dictionary and found out that の can be used with こと to express: "about"
Yes. You can think of this as "things about (or related to) school" if you want to mentally distinguish it from について and connect it to other meanings of こと.

Zizka said:
(12)と . So the verb here is 「話します」. 学校のこと is what is being discussed. Could it be a direct object of 「話します」. It somehow doesn't feel quite right. I think it's と as in the quotation と.

(12)I didn't get this right although I got it in the first place. Should've followed my instincts!

Yes, your initial feeling was correct. It's a direct object, not quotative.

These are examples of the quotative:

行くと言っていました。
(He) said he would go. (indirect quote)
「はい」と言っていました。
(He) said, "yes." (direct quote)
ジョンと言います。
I'm called John./My name is John.
行こうと思っています。
I think I'll go (lit. "I'm thinking, 'why don't I go.'") (volitional "quoted" with と)

You can probably find more in your Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar.

In 学校のことを話します, 学校のこと is the direct object of 話す.
If you use と with 話す, it would be interpreted as the "with" meaning, e.g. きみ子のお父さんと学校のことを話しました.

Zizka said:
(14)Again... も. Here it makes sense however as in "even the younger brother participated".
Yes, note that the translation says "(Shinji chats with us) too." This is explicitly stating that it's not a contrastive nuance (i.e. "Shinji chats with us, but others don't.")

Moving on to question #17...

Zizka said:
(1)に as in frequency...
Remember, particles mark the noun they follow. Here, に is marking 宿題, and 宿題 is not a frequency.

Also remember that "relative" time expressions like 毎日, 毎月, 来週, etc. take no particle.

If the question read 毎日(0)宿題(1)たくさんあるので, the answer for (0) would be "no particle."

Zizka said:
(About #1) が I can somehow imagine.
Do you understand why now? The explanation is quite simple, but I'd rather see if you understand it before I outright explain it.

Zizka said:
も, も however... not so much.
Your initial response of と…は is also valid (and certainly not ungrammatical in any way).

This is another case where the question is rather unclear and problematic. If they wanted to elicit も…も as the sole correct answer, they should have given the English translation as "...both Kimiko and I study until..."

Finally, #18...

Zizka said:
(1)は: topical.
Unlikely to be topical, since note that "Kimiko" doesn't rule the whole sentence (that is to say, "When Kimiko doesn't understand English" is a single noun clause.)

Note that "When Kimiko doesn't understand English," and "When I don't understand Japanese" are parallel structures with similar roles in the sentence.

Zizka said:
(2)を: direct object.
The way the English verb "understand" works, with "I understand (X)", X is considered the direct object of "understand", but in Japanese, the thing that you understand is marked with が, not を (for contrastive/inclusive meanings, は/も are also valid). The literal meaning of the verb is closer to "X becomes/is clear". This is why the natural way of saying "I get it." or "Understood." to someone who has just explained something to you is 「分かりました」

I have to run for a bit, but hopefully this gives you something to chew on until Toritoribe-san or I can get to the rest.

(edit--whoops, fixed the formatting, which was all messed up due to an unclosed quote. Also, I just wanted to note that even though my post appears below your latest one, I hadn't refreshed and thus didn't see it until after I posted my response, which is why I explained some things in #18 like ~が分かる that it seems you already managed to figure out by yourself. Good job with that! I'll try to get back and respond to your latest reply after, unless Toritoribeさん gets to it before me.)
 
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Zizka

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Could you explain what you mean by this?
I meant that I didn't get the tone of even as in: "We even eat sweets", I didn't get that meaning at all which is why も didn't feel like the right answer.
The way the English verb "understand" works, with "I understand (X)", X is considered the direct object of "understand", but in Japanese, the thing that you understand is marked with が, not を (for contrastive/inclusive meanings, は/も are also valid). The literal meaning of the verb is closer to "X becomes/is clear". This is why the natural way of saying "I get it." or "Understood." to someone who has just explained something to you is 「分かりました」
So it works like 好きです then if I'm not mistaken.
Yes. You can think of this as "things about (or related to) school" if you want to mentally distinguish it from について and connect it to other meanings of こと.
So what would be the distinction between the two expression then? They seem similar to me.
Note that "When Kimiko doesn't understand English," and "When I don't understand Japanese" are parallel structures with similar roles in the sentence.
I recall reading something about this for one of the particles. I just checked に and that's not it. Couldn't find anything about で either. So I can't really remember. Either way, I'd like to discuss this further.
 

Toritoribe

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I prefer making a new thread for each question since this thread becomes confusing already. If you don't care with this, I want to make new threads for #19 and #20, and move your questions there, especially if you want to do new exercises before getting our replies for the previous ones. Anyway,

#16-10

Strangely enough, I'm not getting the "even" tone from the translation.
I meant that I didn't get the tone of even as in: "We even eat sweets", I didn't get that meaning at all which is why も didn't feel like the right answer.
That's why を is the correct answer there. も is grammatically acceptable for 10, but it's not the standard one as in the given English translation.

13
That's の for apposition. the younger brother of Kimiko is きみ子さんの弟. Indeed it's actually きみ子さんの弟の伸二君, but this の for possession must be put before 弟. See the followings, these are the same construction: "position/explanation の proper noun".

ご主人の黒川さん
奥さんの昭子さん
弟の伸二君

14
This も is simply "too/also".

So it works like 好きです then if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, those are the same が. There is another way of interpretation for this が in Japanese grammar other than the explanation jt_-san provided. This が is used to indicate the object of specific verbs/adjectives; some kinds of state verbs, potential form of verbs, -tai form of verbs, adjectives for sense or emotion.
e.g.
日本語がわかる
英語ができる
お金が要る
英語の本が読める
フランス語が話せる
すしが食べたい
映画が見たい
時間が欲しい
彼女が好きだ
敵が憎い

In fact, が is sometimes interchangeable with を in some cases (e.g. バンザイ!君好きでよかった from lyrics of a J-pop song). This usage of を is relatively new. A famous novelist 夏目漱石, who is a person in Meiji and Taishō Period, didn't used this を.

#18-3
This is the contrastive は. The two cases "when Kimiko doesn't understand English" and "when I don't understand Japanese" are compared here, as jt_-san mentioned.

4
When は is used here as the contrastive marker, わたし is compared with someone else, i.e., it means "I teach Kimiko, but other people don't".

7
The same reason as 3.

8
Actually, も is acceptable here, emphasizing that Kimiko also teaches me (as same as I do).
 

Zizka

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I prefer making a new thread for each question since this thread becomes confusing already. If you don't care with this, I want to make new threads for #19 and #20, and move your questions there, especially if you want to do new exercises before getting our replies for the previous ones. Anyway,
Sure, I don't mind. After this is done, I'm pretty much done for particles for the time being anyways.
I got #20 right so I'm not sure if creating a thread is warranted but if you have some comments then I'd like to read them.
That's の for apposition. the younger brother of Kimiko is きみ子さんの弟. Indeed it's actually きみ子さんの弟の伸二君, but this の for possession must be put before 弟. See the followings, these are the same construction: "position/explanation の proper noun".
I'll be honest; I still don't get the apposition thing. You guys have explained many times though so I don't think it's necessary to explain it again. I'll probably just cinch in eventually. Just saying for transparency.
p.s.: do you have any suggestions as to what exercises I should do next? I have a good understanding of particles generally speaking. Verbs next?
 

Toritoribe

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I might explain this previously, but apposition の refers to the same person.

弟の伸二君
(Kimiko's) younger brother and Shinji refers to the same person, as in "her younger brother Shinji" in English.

伸二君の弟
On the other hand, 伸二君 and 弟 are not the same person here, since it means "Shinji's younger brother/younger brother of Shinji".

奥さんの昭子さん
It's the same also here. "(Kurokawa's) wife" and "Akiko" are the same person, as in "Mr. Kurokawa's wife Akiko". 昭子さんの奥さん can be valid only for same-sex marriage.


How about #17-1? Can you explain why が is used there, which jt_-san asked?

p.s.: do you have any suggestions as to what exercises I should do next? I have a good understanding of particles generally speaking. Verbs next?
I recommend learning various expressions regarding tense, aspect or mood such like ~ている/ある/おく or complex sentences (複文) such like the conditional clause or temporal clause.
 

Zizka

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弟の伸二君
(Kimiko's) younger brother and Shinji refers to the same person, as in "her younger brother Shinji" in English.
奥さんの昭子さん
It's the same also here. "(Kurokawa's) wife" and "Akiko" are the same person, as in "Mr. Kurokawa's wife Akiko". 昭子さんの奥さん can be valid only for same-sex marriage.
Ok, I think I understand now. It was pretty simple after all.
upload_2018-7-29_13-29-26-png.27187

Oops, I thought I had answered his question. Sorry about that.
Well, 毎日 isn't what's being qualified by the particle here, it's 宿題, which refers to "homework" in English.It's a simple が which indicates the existence of something which associates with ある just before the comma.
 

Toritoribe

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Ok, I think I understand now. It was pretty simple after all.
Yes, it actually is. The point you need to pay attention to is just the word order; 弟の伸二君 vs. 伸二君の弟.

Well, 毎日 isn't what's being qualified by the particle here, it's 宿題, which refers to "homework" in English.It's a simple が which indicates the existence of something which associates with ある just before the comma.
That's right.
 

Zizka

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I recommend learning various expressions regarding tense, aspect or mood such like ~ている/ある/おく or complex sentences (複文) such like the conditional clause or temporal clause.
You (and everyone else) wouldn't happen to know about a book of exercises about something like that would you?
 

Toritoribe

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Unfortunately no I don't know any. Other members who learned or are learning Japanese might know good textbooks/exercise books.
 

Zizka

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Gah I can't find anything and I'm losing precious practice time 0_p.
Maybe certain lessons from genki come to mind? I browsed through it but couldn't find anything convincing.

If anyone else is reading this, what exercises do you guys partake in?
 

Toritoribe

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How about exercises for JLPT, especially the ones for grammar section?
 

Zizka

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I'd love to do them but they're not available online. I could buy them though I suppose.
 

bentenmusume

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Sorry, I was busy and/or sick for a couple of days and wasn't able to check this forum.

Unfortunately, I can't say I've ever seen a book containing exercises similar to those you've been working on but specifcally for the sort of verb constructions that Toritoribe-san mentioned.

Genki (or any decent textbook, really) will certainly cover these constructions, and I would imagine the accompanying workbook(s) would certainly contain exercises of some sort.

Failing that, I would second Toritoribe-san's suggestion to look at JLPT (probably N5 or maybe N4 level) grammar materials, though these aren't quite as suitable as learning materials, as they're not designed to introduce/reinforce new structures with a logical progression, but rather to test a wide variety of grammar points all at once.
 

Zizka

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I've been looking through Genki ever since but all I can find are rote exercises, nothing which requires interpretation like particles which makes the whole thing tedious for me and I can't seem to bring myself to do it.
Particles offer a challenge and context, just conjugating verbs in the ~te form is really a mind-bore to me.
 

Toritoribe

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Here's an exercise from Chapter 12.

Answer the following questions.
1. 日本語の授業で何をしなければいけませんか。
2. かっこよくなりたいんです。何をしなければいけませんか。
3. 友だちが遊びに来ます。何をしなければいけませんか。
4. 明日は初めてのデートです。何をしなければいけませんか。
5. 子供の時、何をしなければいけませんでしたか。


You need to understand the Japanese questions, and choose correct nouns, verbs and its forms or particles to answer the questions. It doesn't seem to be boring to me.
 
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