Learning Japanese through Translation

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

Zizka said:
Ah so the り is not really part of the conjugation, it's more like a particle that's used in combination with the -ta form.

Actually, たり is a particle (接続助詞 conjunctive particle). This is a bit confusing, but たり is originally from a classical auxiliary verb たり, and this auxiliary verb is also the etymology of た in the past form. In the grammar taught in Japanese school(国文法/学校文法), which is different from the one non-native learners usually learn, きい is treated as a conjugation form(連用形) of きく. It's better for non-native learners to remember "the past form of verb/adjective + り" as a special expression, so your understanding "a particle that's used in combination with the -ta form" is not so bad, even though り is actually not a particle.

Zizka said:
How can I be sure about the meaning of きく? It can even mean "to ask", "to follow", "to learn". Those are quite distinct verbs.

Check the pattern of each definition. Specifically, in what definition "personにきく" can be used.

Zizka · 31 May 2018

(1) always use dictionaries that provide example sentences (as Toritoribe-san emphasized above), so you're not just seeing an English word and assuming the Japanese word has the same range of meanings

I do have the habit of just checking one-word definitions instead of taking the time to look how it fits in context. I'll work on that.

Actually, たり is a particle

I was about to say it's not in my dictionary but I just looked in my particle book and it is there. "Describes simultaneous or consecutive actions".
So:
「オレわからないことがあると
ときどきそこのフランクリ先生にきいたりするんだ」
"If I don't understand something, I'll sometimes ask this Frankly professor for explanations [and things like that]."
Should I add: "and things like that" to convey the たり construction? (Inexhaustive listing of actions or states)

Zizka · 31 May 2018

Another one:

「赤色のクスリは
一番右にはおかない」
赤色：red color
くすり：medicine
は：topic particle
一番：first
右：right
には：に+は particle
おかない：negative of 置く, "to put"
"Don't put the red medicine on the first [spot] on the right."

「青色のくすりは
赤色のくすりのとなりにあく」
I'll just add the new vocabulary here:
青色：blue color
となり：next to
"Put the blue color medicine goes next to the red color medicine"

「みどり色のくすりと
赤色のくすりのあいだには
２つのくすりをおく」
みどり色: green color
あいだ：between
"Put 2 medicine between the green medicine and the red medicine"

「黄色のくすりは青色のくすりとみどり色のくすりのあいだにおく」
黄色：yellow
"Put the yellow medicine between the blue and the green medicine."

「ビーカーがとまった場所の
ぼたんをおしてやっとせした
くすりをそそいでください」
ビーカ：beaker
が：助詞 (in order to avoid repeating the same thing over and over, I'll just write 助詞 if it's a particle I've identified before.)
とまった：past of "止まる".
場所：place, spot
の：助詞
ボタン：button
を：助詞
おして：ーて form of 押す, "to push".
やっとせした：This one is giving trouble. I think 「やっと」 is finally. Is せした some sort of past inflection?
くすり：medicine
そそいて：ーて form of 注ぐ, "to pour"
ください：please

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

Zizka said:
「オレわからないことがあると
ときどきそこのフランクリ先生にきいたりするんだ」
"If I don't understand something, I'll sometimes ask this Frankly professor for explanations [and things like that]."

と conditional expresses habit or repeatedly occurred things, so the nuance is closer to "when" than "if" there.
e.g.
春になると、花が咲きます。
When spring comes, flowers bloom.

For confirmation, is the speaker (or the person he is speaking to) talking about a place (or school) right before the sentence? If so, そこ refers to the place.

Zizka said:
Should I add: "and things like that" to convey the たり construction? (Inexhaustive listing of actions or states)

You can omit it for natural translation, if you already get the nuance of たり.

Zizka said:
一番：first

"Don't put the red medicine on the first [spot] on the right."

一番 is an adverb there. Look up another meaning in the dictionary.

Zizka · 31 May 2018

一番 is an adverb there. Look up another meaning in the dictionary.

The definitions I have for 一番 are:

The first one on the right is about the only way I can see this one translated to be honest based on the definitions I have.

I'm going to post this again as it was edited in my previous message:

「ビーカーがとまった 場所の
ぼたんをおしてやっとせした
くすりをそそいでください」
ビーカ：beaker
が：助詞 (in order to avoid repeating the same thing over and over, I'll just write 助詞 if it's a particle I've identified before.)
とまった：past of "止まる".
場所：place, spot
の：助詞
ボタン：button
を：助詞
おして：ーて form of 押す, "to push".
やっとせした：This one is giving trouble. I think 「やっと」 is finally. Is せした some sort of past inflection?
くすり：medicine
そそいて：ーて form of 注ぐ, "to pour"
ください：please

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

一番
Adverb
2. best; most
一番 - Jisho.org

いちばん【一番】
2 〔最も〕
一番奥の
innermost

一番外の
outermost

一番残念なのは彼の署名入りの写真をなくしたことです
The thing I regret most is that I lost his autographed photograph.

日本で一番南の港はどこですか
What is the southernmost port in Japan?
一番を英語で訳す - goo辞書英和和英

Thus, 一番右 means "the rightmost/the right end".

How about そこの in my previous post?

Zizka said:
やっとせした：This one is giving trouble. I think 「やっと」 is finally. Is せした some sort of past inflection?

セットサレタ＝セットされた

Notice that you read や, せ and し as hiragana, but that sentence is written all in katakana.

Zizka said:
そそいて：ーて form of 注ぐ, "to pour"

そそいで (this is just a typo)

Zizka · 31 May 2018

So my dictionary software is incomplete then... hrm. I like to have something offline when I don't have access to the internet, that's the thing.
Thanks for the info about 一番. Now I know it can be used with directions to indicate "-most".

How about そこの in my previous post?

He wasn't talking about anything else. It was his initial comment. So I guess it just means Frankly's place then.

セットサレタ＝セットされた

Ahhhh! Ok. That's the thing when everything is in かたかな, it makes it difficult to figure out 外来語.
So it's セット+する... like "making a set".
Which inflection of する is that by the way?
「ビーカーがとまった 場所の
バトンをおして ~~やっとせした~~ セットされた くすりをそそいでください」
"Press the button where the beaker has stopped in order to pour the medicine"
I know I'm making to "to make a set" here but I don't see how it fits in.

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

Zizka said:
He wasn't talking about anything else. It was his initial comment.

I see. Then, そこ means "there". Probably the speaker is saying it with pointing to the place or doing like that. In this case, そこの means そこに住んでいる "living there".

Zizka said:
So it's セット+する... like "making a set".

セット is a noun in Japanese, so セットする works as a verb "to set".

Zizka said:
Which inflection of する is that by the way?

I believe you can get it by yourself. :emoji_wink:

Zizka said:
"Press the button where the beaker has stopped in order to pour the medicine"

The -te form is used to connect clauses in the temporal order, thus ボタンをおして、くすりをそそいでください means "Press the button and pour the medicine".

Zizka said:
I know I'm making to "to make a set" here but I don't see how it fits in.

セットされた modifies くすり.

Zizka · 31 May 2018

Ok, let me try again.
「ビーカーがとまった 場所の
バトンをおしてセットされたくすりをそそいでください」
"When the beaker has stopped at a place, push the button and set (?) to pour the medicine please."

「おしてセットされた」
Regarding the ーて form there, DBJG says:
"The ーて form functions, in part, to link sentence. That is, if the last element of the predicate of a clause is the ーて form, it means that the close is not the end of the sentence and that another predicate or clause follows it."
and:
"The meaning of the -te form varies according to context, but generally, it corresponds to and or -ing in participial constructions"
Which comes back to:

The -te form is used to connect clauses in the temporal order

Zizka · 31 May 2018

Could された be the past passive?
(される in the past?)

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

Zizka said:
Could された be the past passive?
(される in the past?)

Exactly.:emoji_thumbsup:

Your initial interpretation "the button where the beaker has stopped" for ビーカーがとまった場所のボタン is correct.

As I wrote, セットされた modifies くすり, as same as とまった場所. Notice that された is not the -te form, thus, this is not an action the reader should do.

Zizka · 31 May 2018

Yes!

What I can't manage right now is this:
「おしてセットされた」
Push "and" was set (past passive). How do I relate this with the button and the medicine in a coherent sentence?

セットされた modifies くすり.

So push the button and the medicine was set...? It doesn't make sense.

EDIT:

As I wrote, セットされた modifies くすり, as same as とまった場所.

So push the button where the medicine was set? Doesn't make sense either.

Toritoribe · 31 May 2018

The core of the sentence is ボタンをおして、くすりをそそいでください "Please press the button, and pour the medicine".

ビーカーがとまった modifies 場所, so ビーカーがとまった場所 means (the place) where the beaker has stopped", as you translated correctly. In the same manner, セットされた modifies くすり, thus, it's "the medicine that was set", not "the medicine was set". Two interpretation can be possible for セットされた here, "to be put previously" and "to be compounded".

Zizka · 31 May 2018

I think the Japanese passive is still unclear to me. I've just skimmed through ADJG and read the passages about the passives but I'm not 100% on it yet. Need more practice!

Speaking of which, another one:

"To be honest, continue the investigation/search and return and then I will accept that you're not some kind of criminal."
ずばっと：without hesitation, frankly.
さがして：ーて form of 探す, "to search". So here I had my doubt that this was some kind of construction (with くる) I mean and I was right. So basically, continue your investigation and return
くる：来る：to continue here I think
のです：explanation
そうしたら：and then
キミ：you
が：助詞
犯人: criminal
でない：not to be
こと：intangible thing again perhaps?
を：助詞
みとめ：認め：普通名詞：acceptance
ましょう：polite, "let's do something", "we will do something"

joadbres · 31 May 2018

Based on the confusion you have demonstrated in your last few posts, it seems that you have forgotten what "modifies" means.

Here is an old comment from @Toritoribe, from far back in this thread, to refresh your memory:

かいだんをのぼった先にある modifies トビラ.

This is an important concept that you need to understand.

joadbres · 31 May 2018

In your most recent post, みとめ is not a noun, as you have listed. Something else is going on in that part of the sentence. Try to figure out what it is.

Zizka · 31 May 2018

I'll deal with your first comment to begin:
Well, I haven't really forgotten I don't think. I think the challenge for me is finding what is the core that's being modified.
「ビーカーが とまった 場所の
バトンをおしてセットされたくすりをそそいでください」
What I had to do last time with the door at the top of the stairs was to identify the "core" which I understood then as the main noun that's being described by clauses preceding clauses as well as the main verb.
If I were to guess, I would say 「くすり」is described by [とまった 場所のバトンをおしてセットされた]. In other words, [とまった 場所のバトンをおしてセットされた] would act as one big attributive clauses qualifying くすり. 注ぐ is the main verb.

"Please press the button and pour the medicine where the beaker stopped [and was set.]"
Still doesn't work for me. Sorry guys! Really trying here!

In your most recent post, みとめ is not a noun, as you have listed.

Ah yes, of course it's not. It's the polite form of 認める, isn't ("to recognize)?

Toritoribe · 1 Jun 2018

The structure is;
ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして、セットされたくすりをそそいでください

ビーカーがとまった場所の modifies ボタン.
セットされた modifies くすり.
ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして doesn't modify くすり.

You are repeatedly using a typo バトン for ボタン, by the way.

Zizka said:
ずばっと：without hesitation, frankly.

ズバッと is more likely "clearly/with no doubt" here.

Zizka said:
さがして：ーて form of 探す, "to search". So here I had my doubt that this was some kind of construction (with くる) I mean and I was right. So basically, continue your investigation and return

～てくる can have two meanings; "to continue doing" and "to do and then return". However, it can't have these two meanings at the same time, thus, "continue your investigation and return" can't be correct. Actually, it's "to search and return".
Note that when ～てくる means "to continue doing", it's basically used for an action/movement from the past to the present, therefore the past form ～てきた is used in most cases. When taking about future like your example, ～ていく is used instead.

Zizka said:
こと：intangible thing again perhaps?

It's a nominalizer.

mdchachi · 1 Jun 2018

Zizka said:
Ah yes, of course it's not. It's the polite form of 認める, isn't ("to recognize)?

It's the polite form of the volitional form.

Zizka · 1 Jun 2018

It's a nominalizer.

1. So just to be sure:

こと：nominalizes 犯人でない. So a person who isn't a criminal.
2. In this:
ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして、セットされたくすりをそそいでください
So basically the ーて of 押して links two clauses namely:
「ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして」
Press the button at the place where the beaker has stopped
&
「セットされたくすりをそそいでください」
Pour the medicine in the medicine that was set.
Correct? You were able to parse the two clauses that way by being able to figure out what was the main verb in both clauses I understand. If that's what it is, then I understand.

continue your investigation and return" can't be correct. Actually, it's "to search and return".

if I wrote:
食べてくる would it mean "eat and return" then? As in -te form+kuru?
Another try:
「ずばっとさがしてくるのです
そうしたらキミが犯人でないことを
みとめましょう」
"Search and return and then we'll no doubt recognize you as person who doesn't commit crimes/as not a criminal."
Better?

mdchachi · 1 Jun 2018

Zizka said:
if I wrote:
食べてくる would it mean "eat and return" then? As in -te form+kuru?

Yes. This is common phrasing to say something like "I'm going to lunch."
Also extremely common is: 行ってきます~
to mean something like "I'll be right back" or "I'm going out."
I hear this form pretty much every day in my house. Either me saying it or somebody else.

Zizka said:
「ずばっとさがしてくるのです
そうしたらキミが犯人でないことを
みとめましょう」
"Search and return and then we'll no doubt recognize you as person who doesn't commit crimes/as not a criminal."
Better?

These are two separate sentences and it appears you're mixing them up.
I'm not sure why toritoribe-san intepreted ずばっと as "clearly."
Doesn't that belong to the first sentence i.e. "[I'll] go looking right away"?

Toritoribe · 1 Jun 2018

Zizka said:
1. So just to be sure:
こと：nominalizes 犯人でない. So a person who isn't a criminal.

こと nominalizes the clause キミが犯人でない. Remember that を is attached to nouns, so you need to nominalize it in order to use as the object of 認める. It's like "I recognize that [a clause]" in English.

"Who isn't a criminal" in "a person who isn't a criminal" is a relative clause, thus, it's 犯人でないキミ.

Zizka said:
2. In this:
ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして、セットされたくすりをそそいでください
So basically the ーて of 押して links two clauses namely:
「ビーカーがとまった場所のボタンをおして」
Press the button at the place where the beaker has stopped
&
「セットされたくすりをそそいでください」
Pour the medicine in the medicine that was set.
Correct? You were able to parse the two clauses that way by being able to figure out what was the main verb in both clauses I understand. If that's what it is, then I understand.

That's right. Your understanding is correct.
As for セットされた, it means "to be put". It refers the instruction how to put/set colorful medicines in your previous quote. That action is セットする.

Zizka said:
Another try:
「ずばっとさがしてくるのです
そうしたらキミが犯人でないことを
みとめましょう」
"Search and return and then we'll no doubt recognize you as person who doesn't commit crimes/as not a criminal."
Better?

ズバッと modifies さがしてくる, not みとめましょう, as already pointed out. "Unerringly" might be more appropriate there.

Zizka · 1 Jun 2018

@mdchachi: Wow, you have a house in Japan? Did you win the lottery? : When I was in Japan I couldn't sit in my tub.

ズバッと modifies さがしてくる, not みとめましょう

Yeah I know but I couldn't figure out how to plug ズバッと in the first sentence which is why:

Just nickpicking here, but wouldn't ''without hesitation'' be a viable translation for ズバッと here as in: ''Don't waste time to investigate and then return''?

こと nominalizes a clause キミが犯人でない. Remember that を is attached to nouns, so you need to nominalize it in order to use as the object of 認める.

So the こと here is really just to be grammatically correct so that it's accordance with the purpose of を.
*
Another one:

「なに？
チケットをもってない人がいるですと？！」
"What? There are some people without tickets?!"
なに：what
チケット: ticket
を：d.o.
もってない人: a person who doesn't have. How would you define もってない here? It's like verb which qualifies a noun.
が：助詞
いる: to exist (animate)
です: is
と: 助詞：does the 「と」there have a specific meaning since it's a final particle or is it the usual 「と」that just so happens to be at the end of a sentence?

mdchachi · 1 Jun 2018

Zizka said:
@mdchachi: Wow, you have a house in Japan? Did you win the lottery? : When I was in Japan I couldn't sit in my tub.

No, I didn't say I lived in Japan.
But I don't think home ownership in Japan is that difficult. It's probably more affordable than Toronto.

Zizka said:
So the こと here is really just to be grammatically correct so that it's accordance with the purpose of を.

That's a strange way to put it. It's there to make the sentence comprehensible and usually the best way to do that is to follow the rules of grammar.
For a sentence like "Look at the boy that is wearing red."
And you ask me what the function of that is. I wouldn't say it's there just to be grammatically correct in order to follow the rules of prepositional phrases...

mdchachi · 1 Jun 2018

Zizka said:
もってない人: a person who doesn't have. How would you define もってない here? It's like verb which qualifies a noun.

I thought you said you read Tae Kim's guide twice.
Progressive Tense – Learn Japanese
As for qualifying a noun, it's the exact same discussion up above.
のぼったかいだん、あること etc.

Zizka said:
"What? There are some people without tickets?!"

Note, you can't tell if it's plural people or singular somebody from this sentence alone.

Zizka said:
と: 助詞：does the 「と」there have a specific meaning since it's a final particle or is it the usual 「と」that just so happens to be at the end of a sentence?

It's the quotative と. It should be in your grammar or particle dictionary.

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