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Learning English and its problems

Your 2nd explanation is correct, the 1st falls a bit short, I think. We can only guess what she actually said, but I suppose it was "I want to eat ... in tomorrow's party."
(I would have guessed it should be "at the party", but googling taught me that in, on & at are possible).

Based on her original statement, the sentence in reported speech should be as above because the introduction sentence is in the past which leads to a backshift in the reported speech:

Backshift: if introduction sentence is in
Simple Past (He said)
Past Perfect (He had said)
Future II (He will have said)
Conditional I (He would say)
Conditional II (He would have said)

example: He said, ﾂ"I talk.ﾂ" – He said that he talked.
direct / indirect speech
Simple Present / Simple Past
Simple Past / Simple Past oder Past Perfect
Present Perfect, Past Perfect / Past Perfect
Future I, Conditional I / Conditional I
Future II, Conditional II / Conditional II

That's what I teach my pupils. If it's wrong, I'm damned for eternity.

According to the explanation above, the sentence as posed is wrong, while your "acceptable" solution is the correct one. Although, judging from my German experience, the sentence as posed may be acceptable in colloquial communication.
 
Well, just thought I'd drop by to see what's going on. Please excuse my interruption.

As far as I know, you are teaching your students correctly bossel. The backshift works that way technically--but as you mentioned, in conversational situations, things don't always flow according to the rules.

The basic purpose of the backshift, as I have learned, is simply time agreement/identification. (but who knows really--I have seen some papers on English grammer which had lead me to the conclusion that some of the 'whys' and 'how it happens' can sometimes, to some degree be made up as one goes along.)

My students have the same problems as mentioned above by Kyoko_desu and a few others. Also, Past conditional is very hard for them, and extremely few of my private, adult students get it locked in--(here at the uni, never in my wildest dreams.)
 
bossel said:
(I would have guessed it should be "at the party", but googling taught me that in, on & at are possible).
Click to expand...

That's interesting, because your guess ("at") is the only one that sounds right to me. The others sound wrong.
 
Glenn said:
That's interesting, because your guess ("at") is the only one that sounds right to me. The others sound wrong.
Click to expand...
I think "in" and "on" sound wrong, too. Are they correct? If so, in what situations?

Regarding Google, I don't place blind trust in it. What is found in the search is not necessary correct. This is very true for Japanese. Writers are not necessarily native speakers, and native speakers are not necessarily right all the time. It very often only shows "trends" in mistakes and statistical data on "what is probably right."
 
The first page of google results for "in the party" all have a different meaning for "party" -- political group with similar interests and ideals. Also, they all refer to movement, like promotion or changing position of some kind.

"On the party" all show some sort of dependence or attack -- "an attack on the party," "we can't depend on the party," etc., and "party" is pretty similar in meaning to the "in the party" versions.

So it looks to me like in the context of a get together where people hang out, dance, drink, eat, and have fun, "on the party" and "in the party" are both ungrammatical.
 
A quickie: Regarding the preposition, IMHO, 'at' would be the truest, if not the only choice when the referent for the word 'party' is that occasion when people come together to have a good time or celebrate something. . .Can you celebrate. . .(sorry, just had to do that...hee, hee...)

Having said that much though, that very preposition is most commonly used for points in space and time--the party'll be at seven, at Mars Man's place--so why 'eat BBQ and drink good beer AT the party? The party itself is neither a location nor a time point--although it could be being seen as a time point here. Hummmm...interesting. MM
 
Glenn said:
So it looks to me like in the context of a get together where people hang out, dance, drink, eat, and have fun, "on the party" and "in the party" are both ungrammatical.
Click to expand...
That's what you get when you only look at the numbers & not at the content. You're obviously right. Sorry for that!
 
Don't worry -- I've been a victim of that too.
 
I don't know exactly what type of issues a native Japanese speaker would have when learning English --even though anime already gives me an idea-- but I can speak from personal experience (and by "personal experience" I also include what I see from others around me as non-natives).

I think that English when compared to other languages is not extremely hard. That, and the fact many countries have adopted the language as the official "secondary language to be taught at school" not mention the constant exposure to English terms.

The hardest part of English, I'd say, is the accent. By "accent" I am not specifically referring to "american accent" or "british accent" but rather a neutral accent that natives are able to understand. In my experience I lived in the states for 2 years and a half, plus I've worked for an american company in my native country (outsourcing) talking to americans via telephone 6 hours a day. It's fairly easy to be acquainted with new vocabulary or terms: just turn on the TV, play videogames, use the Internet, etc. However, how to pronounce them is an entirely different matter.

This is the reason why I love written English (the amount of foreign vocabulary incorporated is very entertaining, such as french or latin words) but spoken English can sometimes be a *****. It takes a lot of practice in English environments to achieve a decent diction for us that are not naturally talented learners.
 
what's choco-pa, btw??
 
,
I'd like to say Arigato to everybody for trying to hlep with my Mondai-ten with Fukusuu-ke/Tansuu-kei and Kako-kei/Genzai-kei. And please read following Nihogo and English.
ﾂ「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?認窶傳窶堙窟ﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ（窶堋ｱ窶堙固ｽﾅｾ窶彑窶堙?、Aﾅｽq窶堙最陳ｻﾂ催昶?堙?ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堙ｰﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堋ｩ窶堙坂?｢s窶督ｾﾂ。ﾂ）
'Yesterday, my friend, A-ko said she wanted to eat choco-pa at tomorrow's party.'
ﾂ「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?認窶傳Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?催?鞘?ｰﾂ、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾅ津｣窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ（窶堋ｱ窶堙固ｽﾅｾ窶彑窶堙?、Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙??堙?窶堋､ﾂ、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堙債食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堋ｭﾂ、窶ｹC窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾃ鞘?堙ｭ窶堙≫?堙?、ﾂ債｡窶堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ。ﾂ）
'Yesterday, my friend A-ko said she first wanted to eat choco-paﾂ but after then she wants to eat chocolate cake at tomorrow's party.
ﾂ「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?認窶傳Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堋ｪﾂ終窶堙ｭ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾅ津｣窶堙?、窶怒窶懌?凪?堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ、窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ（ﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙娯?楼窶堙??堙債、Aﾅｽq窶堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?ﾂ、窶怒窶懌?凪?堙債、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ）
'Yesterday, she said she wanted to eat choco-pa at tomorow's party but after the party she said she had wanted to eat chocolate cake at the party.'
****************************************
I think there are some mistakes in my English translation above. Can somebody please help me correct them?
Thanks!
 
Just my two yen:
(ATTN: Other members, please correct me if I'm wrong )
ﾂ「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?認窶傳Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?催?鞘?ｰﾂ、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾅ津｣窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎 ﾂーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ（窶堋ｱ窶堙固ｽﾅｾ窶彑窶堙?、Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙??堙?窶堋､ﾂ、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堙債食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堋ｭﾂ、窶ｹC窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾃ鞘?堙ｭ窶堙≫?堙?、 ﾂ債｡窶堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ。ﾂ）
'Yesterday, my friend A-ko said she first wanted to eat choco-paﾂ but after then she wants to eat chocolate cake at tomorrow's party.
(a) I think "after then" should be replaced by "later."
(b) "after then she wants" -> "later she said she wanted..."
(c) Add "change her mind" for greater clarity.
"Yesterday, my friend A-ko said she wanted to eat choco-pa at tomorrow's party. However, she changed her mind later and said she wanted to eat chocolate cake."
(I am assuming that the party hasn't taken place yet.)

ﾂ「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?認窶傳Aﾅｽq窶堙坂?督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堋ｪﾂ終窶堙ｭ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾅ津｣窶堙?、窶怒窶懌?凪?堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ、窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ（ﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙娯?楼窶堙??堙債、Aﾅｽq窶堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪあ ﾃ??堙?ﾂ、窶怒窶懌?凪?堙債、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ）
'Yesterday, she said she wanted to eat choco-pa at tomorow's party but after the party she said she had wanted to eat chocolate cake at the party.'
(1) The party has already taken place, so "tomorrow" is incorrect, I think?

All comments welcome!
 
#2) I couldn't come up with anything that was just one sentence like the original and made sense in English, so I say go with epigene's sentence for that one. It feels like a wierd sentence to me, though. Yesterday at some place that wasn't the party she said she wanted to eat choco-pa at first, but then she ate chocolate cake? So she changed her mind and ate something at the party before it took place? Or did she say it at the party? Or is the whole thing not quoted? I'm confused about this sentence, because the time sequence seems to be off.

#3) "Yesterday my friend A-ko said that she wanted to eat choco-pa at the party today, but after it ended she said what she really wanted was chocolate cake."
 
窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?｢ﾂｶﾂ湘坂?堙個湘ｳ窶ｹﾂｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??堙債、ﾂ「ﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙坂?堙懌?堋ｾﾂ、ﾂ行窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ」ﾂ湘ｳ窶佚披?堙??堋ｷﾂ。A-ﾅｽq窶堋ｪﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾋ彙窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶冓ﾅ?K窶堙?、ﾂ「ﾂ催?鞘?ｰﾂ、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ恥窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶ｹC窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾃ鞘?堙ｭ窶堙≫?堙?、ﾆ蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾅｽ窶凪?堙ｰﾅ陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙?、窶堙懌?堋ｾﾆ恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堋ｪﾂ行窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙娯?堙?、Party host窶堙哉蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堙ｰ窶敕楪鞘?披?堙娯?堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?廃ﾋ?凪?堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙や?堙?窶堙ｨ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。窶堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、Can I say; "A-ko said to me that she wanted to Choko-pa and now she wants to chocolate cake at the party tomorrow." A-ﾅｽq窶堙債債｡窶堙?ﾂ、窶督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙?蛋ﾆ停?｡ﾆ坦ﾆ椎陳ーﾆ暖ﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈窶堋ｪﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ。A-ﾅｽq窶堙債、窶督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達窶堙姑断ﾆ旦ﾂーﾆ暖窶堙固?ﾃｳ窶転ﾂ（ﾆ椎?ﾆ誰ﾆ竪ﾆ湛ﾆ暖ﾂ）窶堙俄?堙や?堋｢窶堙?、ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙架彙窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾅｽﾅｾﾂ青ｧ窶堙娯?禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。ﾋ彙窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙債「ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺﾂ」窶堙?、ﾋ彙窶堙娯?愿?窶覇窶堙債「窶督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堙姑恥ﾂーﾆ弾ﾆ達ﾂ」窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。 If I say 'wanted to eat choko-pa' and 'wanted to eat chocolate cake', this could mean that she doesn't want to eat both of them at the party tomorrow. But I just wonder if it's OK to say 'wants to eat chokolate cake' in the present tense since she still wants to eat chocolate cake tomorrow at the party even it was told yesterday by A-ko. It's because I remember that my English teacher told(many many years ago) in the class that if the speaker use the 窶慊ｮﾅｽﾅ in the 窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽﾅ蛋 the followingﾂ 窶慊ｮﾅｽﾅ should be in 窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽﾅ蛋 orﾂ 窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽﾅ?ﾂｮ窶板ｹﾅ蛋ﾂ。
ﾆ但ﾆ檀ﾆ弛ﾆ辰ﾆ湛窶堙ｰ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､ﾂ！
 

Well it depends on your experiences and the environment you grow up in. I am originally from Malaysia before I become an Australian and now I live in France. My husband can only understand English spoken by Europeans, or if spoken by Asians it must be fluent like Michelle Yeoh's English. He can't understand Singlish, the English Taiwanese people speak or strong Indian accented ones...etc. I on the other hand understand all sorts of English; I had to translate when he doesn't understand.
 
Minty said:
My husband can only understand English spoken by Europeans, or if spoken by Asians it must be fluent like Michelle Yeoh's English.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is very typical, at least, from my experience with americans. English with an accent is very difficult to understand for some people. Then again, unlike other languages, English is not spoken as it is read (like in Japanese, or Spanish), therefore accent is crucial, as redudant as this may sound (because obviously all languages have their own accent).
 
Fehrant is correct about the "neutral accent", but I wouldn't call it that. I think it would be more correct to think of it as instinct, native speakers can identify patterns in spoken english without giving it a thought. I'm sure other languages have the respective spoken patterns that native speakers just know.
 
I just realized what confused me. There's a missing い on that 食べたい before と言った. It says 「昨日、私の友達A子は明日のパーティで最初、チョコパが食べたかったが、後でチョコレ ートケーキが食べたと言った。」, but I think it should be 「昨日、私の友達A子は明日のパーティで最初、チョコパが食べたかったが、後でチョコレ ートケーキが食べたいと言った。」, right?

I would say "Yesterday, my friend A-ko first said she wanted to eat choco-pa at today's party, but then she said she wanted to eat chocolate cake."

Note that this is an indirect quote, so you have to change the "tomorrow" to "today," and you're right about the past tense.
 

That too, osistlk. However, I was referring to neutral accent, in the sense that some native speakers will not understand a word as simple as "car" if you don't have a neutral (meaning, not necessarily American, English, etc, but still something they can understand) accent.
 
So you mean like understanding the base of the language...?...
 
Not quite. You might not understand because you are american (or at least that's what your flag says) but for a non-native that has never had any actual experience speaking English with a native, and the only source of English is what he/she learns at high school (which is the case of the majority), the pronounciation is going to be way off.

Neutral accent refers to an accent that while you can tell the person is not american, you still manage to understand what's being said. On a greater scale, you understand the person, you realize he has an accent, but cannot tell from where.

I hope I'm being clear this time.
 
I'm a native speaker, but I frequently have contact with people that have Spanish as a native language. They tell me one of the harder aspects of learning English is the inconsistency of pronunciation.

Examples:
The a in hat is not pronounced the same way as the a in father.
The c in ice is not pronounced the same way as the c in cart.
The ti in tin is not pronounced the same way as the ti in action.

Others tell me silent e will trip them up once in a while. I think English is the only language where vowels can be silent.
 
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