Koseki + passport + marriage question...

[Eight888]

Hello all, I've been lurking here for a while looking for an answer to my problem...
...and I just wrote a lengthy post about my current circumstance but it failed to save and post so I am rewriting this again but as a shorter version...

Basic info...

Im 30 y.o. Japanese male (parents both Japanese), born in Canada, moved to the USA 15 years ago, just got naturalized as a US citizen just recently as a Japanese citizen, since I only had a Japanese Passport (since age 21). I do not have a Canadian Passport yet. Currently living in the US.

The problem is...

I've recently got married to a Japanese women who my parents really disapproves of (long story), and they say that they will never accept her in to our family koseki tohon, (this is my first time hearing about this koseki tohon thing) and I was fine with it.
As long as my wife and I were together and since we got our marriage certificate in the US everything seemed alright, until she needed to change her last name on her Japanese Passport.

It seems like my wife needs to be registered under my family koseki, in order to change her last name to mine on the Japanese Passport... and without this change she will definitely get caught at immigration since her Passport name will not match her Green Card name which is already changed to my last name.

Since I got married despite the fact that my parents were strongly against it, I do want to respect their wish of excluding her form the family koseki, my wife doesn't mind either.

I've called the consulate about this, and they were less than willing to help me out, since they now know I have dual citizenship which is illegal in Japan. They said the only option i have is to forfeit my Japanese Passport and make her register her marriage as marring an American, which I will as a last resort. but I would be open for a way to keep my dual citizenship since I might want to live in japan in the future.
(and I will be calling a different consulate once I get all the info needed)

Are there other options to get her passport name change without changing the koseki tohon???

Ive heard I can make an independent koseki tohon which will not be connected to my family koseki tohon, is this true and how would it work? Would I have to go to japan to do this?

or can she get her marriage registered as marrying an American since I'm technically a American citizen without telling the consulate I'm Japanese? I'm sure there are nisei, sansei Japanese who have no koseki i think..

Thanks in advance!

 

[undrentide]

Maybe your parents' idea of koseki is obsolete. Under the current law, only one couple (husband and wife) can be shown in one koseki. That means when you get married, you cannot stay in your family (you parents') koseki any more, you'll have a separate koseki of your own. Your wife will have no chance to be included in your parents koseki in the first place - the only exception is when she's adapted as a daughter of your parents, which usually does not happen. She'll be included in your koseki, only you and your wife as long as you have no children.
Contact the city hall where your family koseki is registered, ask the process how to register your marriage.

 

[undrentide]

By the way, koseki tohon is a name of a document. Family registeration is called 戸籍 (koseki).
There are two kinds of documents to prove your koseki, 戸籍謄本 (koseki tohon) is a document showing all the family members registered under the koseki, and 戸籍抄本 (koseki shohon) is a document showing only a particular member of the family.
Basically following documents are required to get a passport.
(1) 一般旅券発給申請書 ippanryoken hakkyu shinseisho (application form for issuance of general passport) x 2
(2) 戸籍謄本 koseki tohon or 戸籍抄本 koseki shohon (issued within 6 months of applying date for passport) x 1
(3) 住民票 juuminhyo (certificate of residence) x 1 *Not required for those living outside Japan
(4) Document to prove your ID
(5) Photo x 1
You should ask Japanese consulate for details especially (4) and (5) before applying.

If you marry her as an American citizen, then your name will not be in koseki, but shall be mentioned as her spouse in her koseki, I believe.
She should be able to change her family name once she register the marriage, then she can change her family name on her passport.
There are many members here of international marriage (one of them Japanese national), they would be able to give you more accurate and up to date information.

 

[Eight888]

Hey thanks for replying, and clarifying what koseki tohon is...

I'm searching like crazy to find any info about this..

Yes, my parents are very old school, and they like to keep traditions....

So I guess it a matter of me having a child or not, that decides if my wife will be added to the koseki...

 

[undrentide]

No, I'm afraid you got it wrong,.
If you are a Japanese national and registered in your parent koseki as their child, and when you get married, you will be removed from their koseki. Instead you'll get a new koseki of your own. And Your wife will be shown in your koseki, it has nothing to do with your parents' koseki.

You stated that your parents do not want her to be in their koseki, but under the current law, it will never happen anyway unless they adopt your wife as their daughter.

Your wife will be added to your own koseki, having a child or not does not matter.

Maybe my previous posts were not very clear. Hope this time my explanation is clear enough.

 

[Eight888]

Oh ok so when i get married. I get a brand new koseki in my name with no relation to my parents, im gonna look into that. Thanks.

Is there any other way to skip this koseki and get registered? cant i just get by as a US citizen as if i didnt have a koseki?

Everything was so easy to change in The States but its so complicated in japanese...

Thanks again

 

[undrentide]

Is there any other way to skip this koseki and get registered? cant i just get by as a US citizen as if i didnt have a koseki?

Didn't you read the latter part of my post #3?

 

[Glenski]

Your first post was very confusing.

What nationality do you hold now?

If you are American, you go on her koseki as spouse (but she remains head of household on it, and you will never be able to attain that status as a foreigner).
If you are Japanese, you get your own koseki, she goes on it as a wife, and you do whatever the hell you please. If you choose not to put her on your koseki, you risk what you've already been told.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

If Eight888 was naturalized as an American citizen as he claims, then he is an American citizen and has implicitly renounced his Japanese citizenship by Japanese law.

Apparently, he doesn't want to accept that he did that and wants a dual citizenship even though that's not possible.

 

[Petaris]

I'm not sure that is accurate SomeCallMeChris. He would have had to renounced it at the Japanese consulate/embassy, or so I have always understood.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

According to Japanese nationality law - Wikipedia ,
"A Japanese national is assumed to have renounced their nationality upon naturalization in any foreign country",
although the section does go on to say it's not -quite- as strict as that in practical application; it seems that if you didn't actively renounce your Japanese nationality, you still have a chance to retain it by renouncing your second nationality.

In any case, it's not going to be possible to get help as a citizen of both countries since Japan doesn't recognize that status. The best he can get if he persists is a chance to renounce his American citizenship before his loss of Japanese nationality becomes official. If the embassy brushes him off and leaves him in the gray area, that's actually doing him a favor if he might want to reclaim that nationality later.

(Oh, also, if he was born in Canada he may have Canadian citizenship already, and if he didn't renounce that citizenship and assert his Japanese citizenship by age 21 he may already not be a Japanese citizen. I'm not really sure how Canada treats immigrant birth and citizenship.)

 

[FrustratedDave]

According to Japanese nationality law - Wikipedia ,
"A Japanese national is assumed to have renounced their nationality upon naturalization in any foreign country",
although the section does go on to say it's not -quite- as strict as that in practical application; it seems that if you didn't actively renounce your Japanese nationality, you still have a chance to retain it by renouncing your second nationality.
In any case, it's not going to be possible to get help as a citizen of both countries since Japan doesn't recognize that status. The best he can get if he persists is a chance to renounce his American citizenship before his loss of Japanese nationality becomes official. If the embassy brushes him off and leaves him in the gray area, that's actually doing him a favor if he might want to reclaim that nationality later.
(Oh, also, if he was born in Canada he may have Canadian citizenship already, and if he didn't renounce that citizenship and assert his Japanese citizenship by age 21 he may already not be a Japanese citizen. I'm not really sure how Canada treats immigrant birth and citizenship.)

Not true.
The keys words here are "assumed". You have to literally make the declaration of which nationality you want. I know quite a few people with dual citizenship who are Japanese. And there is no way of them finding out if you only use your Japanese passport in Japan.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Not true.
The keys words here are "assumed". You have to literally make the declaration of which nationality you want. I know quite a few people with dual citizenship who are Japanese. And there is no way of them finding out if you only use your Japanese passport in Japan.

No, you don't have to make a declaration. I don't know what meaning you think 'assumed' takes in this sentence, but I read it as 'it is implicitly understood by the Japanese government that a former Japanese national has abandon his nationality when he naturalizes to another nationality.'

If the Japanese government notices that you have both citizenships (for example by asking the embassy how to do things as a dual citizen), they -could- demand that you make a choice. If you don't make a choice, after 30 days you lose your Japanese nationality.

The born-on-foreign soil case is probably simply automatic, though I don't know if it's relevant in this case. The Japanese government would know perfectly well that the child of two Japanese citizens residing in the U.S.A. would be given a citizenship by the U.S.A., and their laws ask for such a child to renounce his non-Japanese citizenship before age 21. Simply failing to bring by proof of renouncing his citizenship before age 21 is all it takes then. But, I don't know if that's true in Canada.

I don't doubt that it's possible to (illegally) exercise the benefits of two citizenships, as long as you stay under the radar. If the Japanese government doesn't -know- that you've naturalized to another nation then they won't know to do anything.

However, it's not smart to call up the embassy and ask how to handle your illegal dual citizenship. If they decide to ask the 30-day question and you -don't answer-, then you are assumed by inaction to have chosen the other country, and once they know that you have that other citizenship, paperwork can be filed accordingly to make it all official, without anyone ever explicitly renouncing citizenship.

 

[FrustratedDave]

No, you have to make a declaration, it is not automatic. Please do not comment on something you are clearly ill-informed about.
You have to submit a "日本国籍離脱届".
The procedure to do this is here,
窶邸窶督ｱﾂ湘按：ﾂ坂?伉静絶?板｣窶僞窶堙娯?愿債出

All what you have said is well and good, but it is very difficult (for the Government) to know if someone has dual citizenship even if they were born in another country, partly due to the fact that some countries do not automatically give citizenship to those born there. This also applies with America, not all babies born on US soil will become US citizens. As, for babies born here, some people don't get dual citizenship for their kids, so there is nothing to renounce and the government cannot just assume that all babies born in Japan will have dual citizenship. See where I am going with this? So as I said before, it is virtually impossible for the government to know precisely (And they need to know for sure before any action is taken) if someone has dual citezenship.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

I'm not saying there isn't a procedure to make a declaration. The existence of the procedure doesn't mean there aren't other ways to lose your citizenship.

And perhaps I am ill-informed. All I've done is carefully read the wiki page on the matter. If you think the wiki page is erroneous and misrepresents the actual laws and procedures, then bring it to them, I don't really care enough to comment again.

Edit, postscript: Also, you seem to be ill-informed about U.S. citizenship. Yes, essentially all babies born on U.S. soil do become U.S. citizens, even the children of illegal immigrants are legal citizens. You don't have to do anything, it's automatic. Of course you can renounce it upon reaching legal age. Canada seems to be the same it turns out.
Apparently there's an exception for foreign diplomats, but of course, the Japanese government knows who they've sent here as a diplomat.
Automatic Birthright Citizenship: Who is an American?

 

[FrustratedDave]

I'm not saying there isn't a procedure to make a declaration. The existence of the procedure doesn't mean there aren't other ways to lose your citizenship.
And perhaps I am ill-informed. All I've done is carefully read the wiki page on the matter. If you think the wiki page is erroneous and misrepresents the actual laws and procedures, then bring it to them, I don't really care enough to comment again.

Sorry, in the context that we are now discussing you stated that you don't have to make a declaration, that statement is false as the law states that you do. Your words,
"No, you don't have to make a declaration. I don't know what meaning you think 'assumed' takes in this sentence, but I read it as 'it is implicitly understood by the Japanese government that a former Japanese national has abandon his nationality when he naturalizes to another nationality.'"

Edit, postscript: Also, you seem to be ill-informed about U.S. citizenship. Yes, essentially all babies born on U.S. soil do become U.S. citizens, even the children of illegal immigrants are legal citizens. You don't have to do anything, it's automatic. Of course you can renounce it upon reaching legal age. Canada seems to be the same it turns out.
Apparently there's an exception for foreign diplomats, but of course, the Japanese government knows who they've sent here as a diplomat.
Automatic Birthright Citizenship: Who is an American? | Dominique Daniel - Academia.edu

Oh, I am fully aware of the law Jus_soli. I am just replying to the statement you made that the Japanese government will know you have two citizenship's if you were born overseas, not all people(parents) will choose to have their baby have US citizenship even if it was born on US soil. My point being that there is no absolute way for the government to really know what your status is unless you tell them.