Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?

[Emoni]

I'm posing this question to you all here as I've found the quality of the posters has really gone up the last few years here and I've found some awfully good comments and topics lately on the board.

For those who have studied in Japan we've seen at the very least major issues with the college system. Students sleeping in class, not really studying anywhere near the level of a typical American college student, and generally not quite matching the scale of an American University. I'm talking in generalizations here, as I also know Japanese students in college who study way more than some Americans as well. (Plus, it isn't considering the entrance exams which are a whole issue in and of itself, and other situations for grad school prep)

Many of us I assume have seen the specials about Japan trying to teach "creativity" in schools and using more western based teaching methods. Universities such as Waseda have opened up certain departments which are radically different than previous college departments in that they are more interdisciplinary as well as use new teaching methods.

Is it really "creativity" that is a major problem with Japanese education, or even education in Asia in general? I've come to wonder if it isn't creativity, but actually critical thinking skills.

I've seen many classes taught in Japan (including in China and South Korea which tend to be similar in many ways), I've read the books, I've taken the college classes (the regular Japanese ones, not just international student sectioned off ones), and the method and focus of classes is pretty much: here is the material memorize and know this. Once again, this is speaking in generalizations, and of course America shares this to some degree as well. However, I do want to point out that there seems to be a much stronger focus on critical thinking skills in United States colleges than Japanese ones.

With the linear teaching methods, one track history, rigid system, and overall opposition to uniqueness and "contrary thought," this almost creates a environment that punishes those who consider thinking and evaluating information rather than simply absorbing information.

What are your thoughts on this? Yes, this has some strong generalizations here and I'm posting late in the morning, but I'm curious as to how you all might view this aspect of Japanese education.

(Glenski posted this link below. I wanted to include it at the top as it covers exactly the sort of questions that this thread relates to: http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquir.../davidson.html) [in the event of failure, try this ]

 

[caster51]

"creativity" ?

I think Japanese kids have creativity more than western world in certain fields

I think Japanese kids realized what they need ....
Amazon product ASIN 4480863303
it is mysterious why the result doesn't go out oppositely in western education system

 

[JimmySeal]

Japanese children are very creative, but they are placed in an educational system largely designed to stifle individuality and individual thought.

 

[caster51]

Japanese children are very creative, but they are placed in an educational system largely designed to stifle individuality and individual thought

I dont know what individual thought means?
who does not have it:?

 

[Glenski]

Creativity is stifled in Japan. Yes, kids have ingenious ideas about building robots (as the specials on TV will show you) and about some other things, but when it comes to overall original thinking and creativity, Japan is very poor at that. Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that, and they often urge Japanese students to go abroad to learn creativity.

This should really be a very short thread.

 

[caster51]

Japan is very poor at that. Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that, and they often urge Japanese students to go abroad to learn creativity.

???
dont say thet like child. I think it is really poor thought.

how much difference in that?
The difference in sience field is a little even in art ,and by politics

if I did the critical thinking to western world, I would do more than you guys like korean issue

it is easy to criticize others.
however The foreigner like you is not good at the self-criticism.

 

[pipokun]

...
Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that
...

It is true that the US, UK, Germany and France are great countries in terms of the Nobel prize, but I cannot say the rest of countries lack creativity.

The attachment shows how the Japanese loves something practical/unpractical.

World Skills Competition
Patent
Paper, not toilet ones, but scientific ones
Nobel Prize
Math-related prizes
Ig Nobel Prize!

Not that good, not that bad.

 

[Emoni]

The foreigner like you is not good at the self-criticism.

This isn't a thread meant to criticize and insult anyone, any culture, or any nation, and I've made it clear that these are generalizations. Keep in mind though the "creativity" issue and teaching it comes out of Japan NOT the US criticizing.

Mostly I'm asking if this focus on "creativity" is misguided and that critical thinking skills are what needs to be considered. Looking at the way education is taught (and in some aspects this shares with American education in pre-college), things are ultimately very linear and one track. History is taught as fact, memorization is key, but analytical skills, questioning, and combination of data with a new focus based on "facts" seems to be rather lacking.

 

[Glenski]

caster,
I am only telling you the facts. It's just too bad that you are the one to act like a child by disbelieving them. Look it up. Japanese Nobel prize winners are sparse, and they have recently made the claims I cited. They did, not me.

The difference in sience field is a little even in art ,and by politics

Yes, of course, but very little, if any, critical thinking is needed in art, so that is an unfair thing to bring up. As for politics, well, I think their poor track record at accomplishing anything speaks for itself. They can't agree on anything right now, and they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

It is true that the US, UK, Germany and France are great countries in terms of the Nobel prize, but I cannot say the rest of countries lack creativity.

I thought this thread was about Japan.

 

[caster51]

critical thinking skills are what needs to be considered. Looking at the way education is taught (and in some aspects this shares with American education in pre-college), things are ultimately very linear and one track. History is taught as fact, memorization is key, but analytical skills, questioning, and combination of data with a new focus based on "facts" seems to be rather lacking

in my critical thinking, it is an arrogance based on ignorance ....
for example, in whaling problem, some historical issue about Nanking, ....
where is an objective evidence?
I think it is easy for you to be brainwashed.
at first , you should doubt youself using your favorite critical thinking

How could Jesus revive?

btw
many Japanese are surely not good at discussion by some reasons.
it is defferent from critical thinking..

 

[caster51]

they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

i dont think it is important for them?
did Japanese language education in other country get along well?
as far as Japanese landuage is prohibited, even if everthing are changed by your favorite critical thinking and you, it would not change it in certain limit period

am only telling you the facts. It's just too bad that you are the one to act like a child by disbelieving them. Look it up. Japanese Nobel prize winners are sparse, and they have recently made the claims I cited. They did, not me

i will tell you the fact. can you get Nobel prize by your "creativity"
if there was a Japanese Nobel prize, how could get their creativity?..

 

[Emoni]

This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...

 

[JimmySeal]

I dont know what individual thought means?
who does not have it:?

Individual thought is the act of forming thoughts and opinions without being taught how to do so, or opinions that are different from the pre-accepted ideas of a group.
Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
ﾂ出窶堙ｩ窶堋ｭ窶堋｢窶堙坂?佚??堋ｽ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ


This is at the heart of the reason why Engish education is failing so poorly in Japan. Teachers don't believe that students can think for themselves and as a result, spoon-feed them every single little bit of information, in triplicate.
The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.
Then some of these students grow up to be English teachers, and the vicious cycle continues.

 

[Mike Cash]

Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
ﾂ出窶堙ｩ窶堋ｭ窶堋｢窶堙坂?佚??堋ｽ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ

I have found that in daily life situations, particularly at work, the English expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies very strongly in Japan. Odd, since it seems to contradict the well-known and oft-cited expression you mentioned.

This is at the heart of the reason why Engish education is failing so poorly in Japan. Teachers don't believe that students can think for themselves and as a result, spoon-feed them every single little bit of information, in triplicate.
The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.

And as many who have taught English conversation in Japan can attest, it also leads a great many to believe that plopping down in front of a teacher is the beginning and end of what is required in order to learn.

 

[Glenski]

This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...

Yes, I figured that. Caster's remarks are completely incomprehensible to me, as usual. Doesn't help, does it?

I strongly suggest that if you want to keep this thread, you'd better monitor it often and ask some very specific questions, otherwise you're only going to get this sort of stuff. I highly recommend distinguishing between creativity and critical thinking, for one. Japan has artists, musicians, living national treasures, etc. that all show Japan's own brand of creativity. However, when you look at "Japan, Inc." and its tradition of copycat production and work until karoshi, well, where is the creativity?

Now, Emoni, you started the thread not looking at artists or Japan, Inc., but instead naming this thread "Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?" You then mention some (few?) places that apparently try to instill creativity in the classrooms. I can throw Future University at you as one example. I hope you can come up with others. From there, we might actually have something that responds to what you want to discuss, but I think in general, Japan's education system is still archaic. Two examples: English prep which is changing only ever so slowly yet largely remains fixed on college entrance exams, and the classroom chaos that is growing as a result of the teaching attitudes that refuse to budge.

To make an attempt (futile, but whatever) to reply to caster:

they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

i dont think it is important for them?

What isn't important? English education in Japan or critical thinking? I assume you mean the former, but look at the Koizumi adminstration to contradict what you just wrote. There is no critical thinking involved in deciding whether to teach English properly here. All dinosauric thinking.

did Japanese language education in other country get along well?

Better than what Japan does with English, but that is not the point, is it? Please don't confuse the issue.

as far as Japanese landuage is prohibited

Where did this random thought come from? Your own lack of critical evaluation skills seem to have brought this up, caster. I'm lost.

i will tell you the fact. can you get Nobel prize by your "creativity"

I will assume you are asking me personally. The answer is maybe. But, then again, that is not the point here. And, the fact that you have to invent a "Japanese Nobel Prize" only goes to show how badly you lost this argument. (In case you think I didn't know, there actually is something akin to that, called the Kyoto Prize. Foreigners have won it, too, including cell biologists, Jane Goodall, Noam Chomsky, etc. Mount Sinai scientist wins Kyoto Prize and 京都賞 and http://www.kyotoprize.org/prizewinners.htm ). Japanese winners are actually in the minority (and have produced zero winners in the categores of Information Science and Thought & Ethics). So much for elitism.

btw
many Japanese are surely not good at discussion by some reasons.
it is defferent from critical thinking..

No, it is not, but that shows again how poorly you even perceive this issue.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Yes, I figured that. Caster's remarks are completely incomprehensible to me, as usual. Doesn't help, does it?

Glenski, however much I do not agree with alot of casters remarks, don't ridicule him for not being able to convey what he wants to. I suggest caster write in Japanese if he were really wanting to be understood.

 

[pipokun]

...
However, when you look at "Japan, Inc." and its tradition of copycat production and work until karoshi, well, where is the creativity?

The thread is about the college education in Japan...

And, the fact that you have to invent a "Japanese Nobel Prize" only goes to show how badly you lost this argument.

Right. So I attached the interesting source above.

 

[Emoni]

I suggest caster write in Japanese if he were really wanting to be understood.

There is a chance that there is a language problem here I guess. I'm not following caster's logic either.

Caster, if you could, feel free to post in Japanese if you think that would express what you are trying to say better. I know I can't say everything I want in Japanese... not even close.

 

[Glenski]

Yes, this is a thread about college education and the lack of creativity/critical thinking skills it fosters. Fosters, hence, I wrote about the end results (Japan, Inc. being one of them). It is not off topic, pipokun.

Dave,
I am not ridiculing caster. I deal with poorly written English every day in the university where I work (and I handled even worse in the 4 years I taught HS here). I simply cannot grasp what he says, and moreover he seems to persist in an elitist sort of attitude about Japan. It is the latter I am more calling him out for. Clearer posts would help, of course, but I think there is more to it than that.

As for writing in Japanese, please, I urge you NOT to do that! There are plenty of people here who could contribute but cannot read Japanese at all. The forum is largely in English, and we have a separate forum for Japanese. I suggest the mods take a stand here, re: language to be used vs. replies that do not stay on topic.

 

[Emoni]

I see nothing wrong with an explanation in Japanese that might assist in expressing what he is trying to say. Especially if he gives a summary in English below. It is up to him of course, but limiting the venues for communication never help.

Caster, it would be helpful if you make a CLEAR and concise post about what your point is. I'm sorry but the posts above are confusing and quite unfocused. They ultimately come off nationalistic and almost baiting an argument and flame war rather than discussing the issue I mentioned regarding critical thinking in Japanese schools. If the post in Japanese language would help, I don't see a problem. However, for the sake of others who can't read it consider posting a summary of what you said in Japanese in English too.

Thanks.

 

[Glenski]

Emoni, if he cannot give a clear Englsh explanation, how is it going to help? He can't seem to do it now WITHOUT the Japanese, so (as I wrote in my recent PM to you), someone is going to have to translate.

Oh, just read this very nice article (supported with references, a good sign of critical thinking) on the topic you want to discuss. I suggest everyone reads it.
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html

 

[butakun]

Why do people keep discussing English education and Nobel laureates is beyond me. Very few of Japanese Nobel laureates were educated outside Japan. I wonder how they got their creativity. Perhaps that's also what caster was trying to say above.

My higher education was in the US. I work in a very European environment, but frequently deal with Japanese and Indian engineers as well. I simply don't see any difference in creativity/critical thinking. What I notice often is in fact young graduates from anywhere lack severely critical thinking.

Perhaps Japanese individuals are highly creative, yet they get buried in a big organizational scale?

 

[Emoni]

Oh, just read this very nice article (supported with references, a good sign of critical thinking) on the topic you want to discuss. I suggest everyone reads it.
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html

Just started reading this and even at a glance this is exactly the sort of material I was hoping for. VERY good find...

(Half way through, I'm going to put this link in the top main thread post above as it is EXACTLY the sort of topic I was hoping to cover. Thanks Glenski.)

 

[caster51]

JimmySeal

Individual thought is the act of forming thoughts and opinions without being taught how to do so, or opinions that are different from the pre-accepted ideas of a group.
Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
ﾂ出窶堙ｩ窶堋ｭ窶堋｢窶堙坂?佚??堋ｽ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ

individual thought has a nothing to do with ﾂ出窶堙ｩ窶堋ｭ窶堋｢窶堙坂?佚??堋ｽ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ.

The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.
Then some of these students grow up to be English teachers, and the vicious cycle continues

I don understand that.
I can say it is just your poor imagination.

 

[Emoni]

caster, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but with everything you just posted right now you've lost that from me. I was told by another poster that they sometimes wonder if you are simply trolling threads like this and I am now seriously considering that as a possibility.

You are providing no argument for your statements, you are making claims that are entirely unrelated, and insulting others while seemingly trying to provoke a flame war. I've been under a lot of stress lately so I guess I was more naive than usual in regards to this behavior.

I'm simply going to ask that you respectfully stop posting in such a way and derailing this thread. I suggest you read the article Glenski posted and also sit back for a few days and think about the posts you have put up here.