Japanese War Crimes Against Humanity

[Apollo]

Well, about Solidarity been rooted in the Catholic region is true.
But...I don't agree entirely with you on other points regarding the end of Cold War...but let us skip this, ok? There are several interpretations and some points can be weighed more important depending on historian...

Anyway, we agree on one point here:
Unit 731 should have gone to trial, as their crimes can be considered "crime against humanity." We had a thread about the biological and germ experiments in China conducted by Japanese during WW2.
"nullem crimen sine lege, nulla poena sine lege" = unless there is law, there can be no crime; unless there is law, there can be no punishment.
This is very interesting, regarding war crimes in general. Do you agree with this?
Any points anyone?

 

[Jopok]

Thank you for your posts, Kochiso. A lot of us Coreans really appreciate your efforts. I know my Chinese friends feel the same way too. Nonetheless, this is a Japan-friendly forum. Judging from their joining dates, most of the people who replied to your posts are long-term members, and they are not going to say anything [BAD] about Japan either because they have Japanese blood/ they have Japanese wives/ their Japanese friends know their real identity/ they want to make some Japanese friends/ they are living in Japan and other various reasons.

Then again, if you take this subject to other more neutral website, I bet most of the people will agree to your opinions, but not this Japan forum.

At any rate, thank you very much.

@Miss Apollo
Koizumi had apologized to Korea? What took the Japanese government so long? Was it because Japan feared that North-Korea might launch an attack on Japan some day that Japan had to make friend with the other Korea? We Coreans don窶冲 want to accept any forced/insincere apology from Japan. This a majority opinion in South Korea. If you don窶冲 believe me, do some research.

 

[TwistedMac]

Then again, if you take this subject to other more neutral website, I bet most of the people will agree to your opinions, but not this Japan forum.

doesn't that go without saying?

ofcourse our opinions will be biased.. for whatever reason we have decided to like Japan, and we're allowed to do that, just like you're allowed to dislike it.. but this is a forum for people that like Japan, so if you don't.. what are you doing here?

 

[King of Tokyo]

I really wish Koreans would stop coming to a Japan Forum and making ignorant comments. I have Korean friends and I always have liked Korea, but members like Jopok are really giving me a negative image of Koreans.. Why don't we just ban members like this? All they do is start trouble and never contribute anything useful. Go to a Pro-Korea Anti-Japan Forum if you feel so strongly about it, Please don't give your fellow Koreans bad names.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Oh no. Here we go again.

 

[canadian_kor]

I really wish Koreans would stop coming to a Japan Forum and making ignorant comments. I have Korean friends and I always have liked Korea, but members like Jopok are really giving me a negative image of Koreans.. Why don't we just ban members like this? All they do is start trouble and never contribute anything useful. Go to a Pro-Korea Anti-Japan Forum if you feel so strongly about it, Please don't give your fellow Koreans bad names.

I agree KoT. It makes the more sensible Koreans look like a bunch of ignorant buffoons.

To jopok. You know, you should really be proud of yourself. Calling yourself a punk and complaining about how too many people here are "Japan-friendly." What makes you so special? Is your life only revolved around how much money you can make? Do you even contribute positively in any way to the world? You know, there is more to life than your sorry complaints and how far your can move up the economic ladder.

Don't think there is any conspiracy at work here. It has nothing to do with any left/right distinction. In the US, German (and to a lesser extent Japanese) wartime atrocities are so well-known and documented because The US fought a massive war against those countries, uncovered the evidence of their atrocities and tried and convicted those responsible for them. Russian, Chinese and Cambodian atrocities may recieve relatively less attention because the US has never been at war with them and there has never been any need to propogandize their bad behaviour. Well, there has been some need to do it, but not as much. Plus most of the millions killed by Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin died of starvation and disease as opposed to being gassed or burned alive in ovens like the Nazis did. Not that it would make much difference to the victims, but saying millions were gassed to death is much more headline grabbing than saying they were starved to death. Additionally, Stalin and Mao didn't deliberately set out to kill millions, most of the deaths were the bi-products of land redistribution schemes which interrupted the food supplies and led to massive malnutrition among some segments of the population. The Nazis, on the other hand, deliberately set out to exterminate an entire religious group from the face of the planet, an act of barbarity which really sets them out from the rest.

Hmm...I don't know about that. Ever heard of Stalin's purges and his systematic starvation of the Ukrainians? Ever heard about Mao's Cultural Revolution (from what I've read it killed more people than the Holocaust)? Ever heard of Pol Pot's crazed systematic killing of all those who didn't look like "workers" or "peasants"? The leftists didn't just kill because of "bad policies", there were more things going on than what the media makes it out to be.

 

[kochisho]

Don't attack Jopok, communicate first. He/She has real gripes and has the right of her opinion. IMHO Maybe it's me but I didn't see Jopok's post an attack on Japan. The Koreans got a right to be heard too. Hey, I don't like all the anti american rallies in South korea after 36,000 american died for the creation of a free south korea. Everyone's got a voive. It's the beauty of humanity.

On Subject, anyone ever think how sick these people were who did these experiments? Cutting open little chinese girls while alive. Injecting infants and toddlers with chemical agents. I can't see how anyone can deney evil.

One thing, My point about this thread was to discuss Japanese war crimes and what they will / should do to have positive relations. Whoever posted Japan has political relationships with any other Asia Country is Wrong. Japans best allies are America, Canada, Australia,and Britain. Japan and Korea just began comminication a short time ago but Korea still has no ties with Japan.
IMHO, You can't ignore the fact this hatred still stems. What will it take for Japan to have relations with their neighbors?

I been to Korea 3 times. I never see a japanese car there once.

 

[Jopok]

Really? We Coreans are not alone. Chinese people hte Japanese too. And a lot of POWs still do.

"To jopok. You know, you should really be proud of yourself. Calling yourself a punk and complaining about how too many people here are "Japan-friendly." What makes you so special? Is your life only revolved around how much money you can make? Do you even contribute positively in any way to the world? You know, there is more to life than your sorry complaints and how far your can move up the economic ladder." by Canadaian_Kor

 

[King of Tokyo]

Yes ofcourse, Chinese people hate Japan too, I can see how you are authorized to speak on behalf of an entire race of people. I am not denying that Japan has done some not so great things in the past, but that is over now and I do not believe it is intelligent to come onto a Japan Forum and talk about how "Koreans and Chinese all hate Japanese". And at the same time of doing this, you are giving alot of Non-ignorant sounding Koreans a bad name. Like I said before, I do believe you may be more comfortable somewhere that this kind of Japan hating is encouraged, like an Ihatejapanforum.com or something of the sort.

 

[TwistedMac]

http://www.antijapan.com

here, go hang out with the other koreans...

 

[Jopok]

Do you own this website? Why? I am not allowed to express my opinions? I am not even swearing at any Japanese here. Why are you getting so hostile? Are you Chinese? Are you Corean? Why are you speaking on behalf of them? Why do you think they are offended by me? Did you talk to each one of them?

To tell you the truth. They are not! Both of my Chinese and Corean friends sooooooo approve of MY OPINIONS.

You have a lot of Korean friends?. Why don't you ask them to come on this forum to chat with me? We can chat in Corean!

 

[Apollo]

@Miss Apollo
Koizumi had apologized to Korea? What took the Japanese government so long? Was it because Japan feared that North-Korea might launch an attack on Japan some day that Japan had to make friend with the other Korea? We Coreans don窶冲 want to accept any forced/insincere apology from Japan. This a majority opinion in South Korea. If you don窶冲 believe me, do some research.

@Jopok:
Hi Jopok,
you asked me what took them soo long to apologise. Hmm...how should I know....I don't know Koizumi nor the government (I wish I met him in person to ask him). Anyway, you don't have to be so hostile - apparently you are.
If you re-read my post in which I refer to the BBC-article about Koizumi's apology, you can see that I ONLY referred to it...I never said anything bad about Koreans.
I referred to it, because the link belongs in this thread, and it was worth discussing....(in a humane way!).

The apology to South Korea took long, I know, sometimes apologies take generations (which history has shown in other contxts, which I don't want to elaborate on too deeply, but here is one concerning Japanese and Koreans: e.g. in late 1980s, Reagan apologised to Japanese due to the internments of Japanese and Korean people living in U.S. during WW2. - A big step and a good step!! :hurray: ) Cool Reagan, (thumbs up)!
PEACE!

 

[kirei_na_me]

Jopok, just face it. You want to come in here to start trouble--nothing else. The people on this forum have absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened 60+ years ago. Most of the people who were around then are not even around now! Why did it take Japan so long to make a formal apology? We do not know! Besides, what has been done has been done and there's nothing anyone can do to change it. Not even a formal apology can change what happened! Times have changed. Japan is a different country now. The U.S. came in, took over, and changed a lot of things about Japan. As one of my friends said, the U.S. "neutered" Japan, in a way. I don't think anyone has to worry about them repeating what happened over a half century ago!

 

[bossel]

Judging from their joining dates, most of the people who replied to your posts are long-term members, and they are not going to say anything [BAD] about Japan

Actually, if you would look around a bit you would find several Japan-critical threads. But contrary to what you do generally, the contained criticism is usually constructive.

On Subject, anyone ever think how sick these people were who did these experiments? Cutting open little chinese girls while alive. Injecting infants and toddlers with chemical agents. I can't see how anyone can deney evil.

Evil? Not necessarily. I agree that there may have been quite a number of perverts in Unit 731 & similar institutions all over the world, but most people who did these experiments probably just "did their job". There has been done extensive research in that field & for what I remember, the outcome was that as long as people have some superior who issues orders (or who they could blame), many if not most would do anything, no matter how horrible.

Whoever posted Japan has political relationships with any other Asia Country is Wrong. Japans best allies are America, Canada, Australia,and Britain.

Japan has political relationships with a lot of Asian countries. Here is a list of Japanese embassies in Asia. Having an embassy usually means having a diplomatic relationship. If you are thinking in the way of good/bad relations, I don't think you're right, either. Except China & NK, Japanese foreign relations are quite normal.

 

[kochisho]

Having an embassy says you have polite political ties in a Country? We had an embassy in Moscow the entire cold war...lol
Have you been to other Asian Countries beside Japan? Can you name these allies of Japan in Asia and how they are allied?

 

[canadian_kor]

Do you own this website? Why? I am not allowed to express my opinions? I am not even swearing at any Japanese here. Why are you getting so hostile? Are you Chinese? Are you Corean? Why are you speaking on behalf of them? Why do you think they are offended by me? Did you talk to each one of them?

To tell you the truth. They are not! Both of my Chinese and Corean friends sooooooo approve of MY OPINIONS.

You have a lot of Korean friends?. Why don't you ask them to come on this forum to chat with me? We can chat in Corean!

The problem with you is that you're just here to cause trouble. You're not here for constructive discussion, but just to vent your frustrations. Your friends may approve of your "opinions" but here we don't really give a rat's behind.

 

[senseiman]

Hmm...I don't know about that. Ever heard of Stalin's purges and his systematic starvation of the Ukrainians? Ever heard about Mao's Cultural Revolution (from what I've read it killed more people than the Holocaust)? Ever heard of Pol Pot's crazed systematic killing of all those who didn't look like "workers" or "peasants"? The leftists didn't just kill because of "bad policies", there were more things going on than what the media makes it out to be.

Don't get me wrong here. In terms of numbers, those killed during Mao's cultural revolution or Stalin's 5 year plans were at least as numerous, if not more so, than those killed during the holocaust (about 9 million). That is certainly true and those acts are equally horrible and deserving of condemnation. I was just trying to offer some explanation as to why they aren't as fussed over as the crimes of nazi germany. The biggest reason is, as I stated above, the fact that the US fought a war against Nazi Germany and not China and Russia. Plus there is a very large Jewish population in the US and many of them lost relatives in the holocaust, whereas the number of Ukranian or Chinese who lost relatives under Stalin or Mao in the US is very small. I really think it has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler being a right wing lunatic (kind of meaningless today anyway, given that most of his policies would be considered left-wing today) whereas Stalin and Mao were lefties.

Having an embassy says you have polite political ties in a Country? We had an embassy in Moscow the entire cold war...lol
Have you been to other Asian Countries beside Japan? Can you name these allies of Japan in Asia and how they are allied?

If you want to be a historian you are going to have to learn the meaning of the words you use, otherwise you will just end up looking like you have no idea what you are talking about all the time.

You said Japan had no relations with other Asian countries, which in diplomatic terms means that Japan has no embassies in those countries. Yet Japan has embassies in just about every Asian country except for North Korea, so that is false. "Polite political ties" doesn't really mean anything special as all diplomatic relations, even those between enemies, are conducted in polite terms.

Your errors in vocabulary aside, Japan has extensive ties to pretty much all of its neighbors. Trade between Japan and China and South Korea is at an all time high and increasing year by year. Japan is a member of several regional economic organizations and the amount of foreign aid sent abroad by Japan is considerably higher than most countries (including the US), with most of that money going to its Asian neighbors.

The only source of political friction between Japan and its neighbors (not counting North Korea) is its wartime past. Japan certainly hasn't addressed this issue very well and the Prime Minister is a total *** for visiting the Yasakuni Jinja every year, but this isn't anywhere near important enough to have any major impact on Japan's relations with these countries. The Chinese raise a fuss (and rightly so) whenever Koizumi says or does something insensitive in the hopes of gaining some leverage during negotiations on other issues, while Koizumi and Ishihara continue to act like jerks in the hopes of gaining political support among their right wing power base. Its just politics as usual.

 

[kochisho]

If you want to be a historian you are going to have to learn the meaning of the words you use, otherwise you will just end up looking like you have no idea what you are talking about all the time.

????????? errr...ok...sensi Do I look like a typer? lol And no I'm not aiming to become a historian. I have my own business. I just self educate my self by different means

You said Japan had no relations with other Asian countries, which in diplomatic terms means that Japan has no embassies in those countries. Yet Japan has embassies in just about every Asian country except for North Korea, so that is false. "Polite political ties" doesn't really mean anything special as all diplomatic relations, even those between enemies, are conducted in polite terms.

Your errors in vocabulary aside, Japan has extensive ties to pretty much all of its neighbors. Trade between Japan and China and South Korea is at an all time high and increasing year by year. Japan is a member of several regional economic organizations and the amount of foreign aid sent abroad by Japan is considerably higher than most countries (including the US), with most of that money going to its Asian neighbors.

The only source of political friction between Japan and its neighbors (not counting North Korea) is its wartime past. Japan certainly hasn't addressed this issue very well and the Prime Minister is a total *** for visiting the Yasakuni Jinja every year, but this isn't anywhere near important enough to have any major impact on Japan's relations with these countries. The Chinese raise a fuss (and rightly so) whenever Koizumi says or does something insensitive in the hopes of gaining some leverage during negotiations on other issues, while Koizumi and Ishihara continue to act like jerks in the hopes of gaining political support among their right wing power base. Its just politics as usual.

I guess my post was too complex for you to understand or I was just anticipating you be knowlegable. of course there are some diplomat and economic ties between japan and the rest of Asia, but it's minimal. Again I ask you if you ever ever been to other asian countries?
and its not only a lack of apology but honoring its fallen soliders that the rest of asia see as war criminals.

 

[bossel]

Having an embassy says you have polite political ties in a Country? We had an embassy in Moscow the entire cold war...lol
Have you been to other Asian Countries beside Japan? Can you name these allies of Japan in Asia and how they are allied?

I was not talking of "allies", but of political/diplomatic relationships & of good/bad relations. Good relations seem to exist with eg. India, Pakistan & Thailand.

The US of course had political relations to the SU, that's the easiest way to negotiate.

 

[kochisho]

yeah, but that was cut off completley under reagans first term. All the soviet leaders were dying and the soviets wanted us to stop star wars and the u.s refused.

 

[senseiman]

????????? errr...ok...sensi Do I look like a typer? lol And no I'm not aiming to become a historian. I have my own business. I just self educate my self by different means

Sorry, just assumed that a history major like yourself was aiming to become a historian. By "self educate my self" do you mean that you just study stuff on your own and are not, in fact, a history major at an actual university?

I guess my post was too complex for you to understand or I was just anticipating you be knowlegable. of course there are some diplomat and economic ties between japan and the rest of Asia, but it's minimal. Again I ask you if you ever ever been to other asian countries?
and its not only a lack of apology but honoring its fallen soliders that the rest of asia see as war criminals.

Well, it is a bit difficult to understand an argument put forward by someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the words they are using. Glad to see that you are now admitting that Japan does in fact have relations with other Asian countries. Please explain what you mean by "minimal" though. In addition to full diplomatic ties with most nations, Japan's two biggest trading partners outside of the US are China and South Korea.

In answer to your question, No I have not travelled to China, South Korea or any of the other countries in question (except of course Japan). But that is 100% irrelevant to this discussion. I've never been to Iraq either, but that in no way prevents me from voicing my opinion on facts that are readily available to anyone who reads the papers.

The main issue today isn't any request for the Japanese government to apologize (several prime ministers have done so in the past), it is (as I mentioned above) Koizumi's continual official visits to the Yasakuni Jinja, where Japan's war dead (including war criminals) are enshrined. If you are saying that the Prime minister should halt this activity then I am in 100% agreement with you. But I think you are way over exaggerating the importance of this. While it does cause some diplomatic damage to Japan's reputation, when it comes to important issues (trade, security, etc.) it has absolutely no impact on Japan's relations with its neighbors.

 

[kochisho]

Sorry, just assumed that a history major like yourself was aiming to become a historian. By "self educate my self" do you mean that you just study stuff on your own and are not, in fact, a history major at an actual university?

Oh I do grasshopper. I have a major in History from the University of San Diego. I studied there while stationed there. I make money through my restaurant business. That doesn't mean I am not still studing....by "Many" means.

Well, it is a bit difficult to understand an argument put forward by someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the words they are using. Glad to see that you are now admitting that Japan does in fact have relations with other Asian countries. Please explain what you mean by "minimal" though. In addition to full diplomatic ties with most nations, Japan's two biggest trading partners outside of the US are China and South Korea.

Trading doesn't make you friends. Ok, maybe thats a better word. Who is Japans "Friend" in Asia?
And i might be a bit incoherent from medication now but I still think you don't get what I mean about Japan and its relations with other Asian Countries. You are playing spin doctor.

In answer to your question, No I have not travelled to China, South Korea or any of the other countries in question (except of course Japan). But that is 100% irrelevant to this discussion.

Oh is it? Go to China, Korea, Taiwan and do a poll on public opinion about the Japanese. I bet its a negative landslide

I've never been to Iraq either, but that in no way prevents me from voicing my opinion on facts that are readily available to anyone who reads the papers.

Read the papers? of course bad news is the only news being broadcast out of Iraq. While 90 percent of the Country is peaceful and thriving. I know Marines in Iraq now. My cousin being one of them. I believe what they see then what I read in a socialist rag like the NY Times

The main issue today isn't any request for the Japanese government to apologize (several prime ministers have done so in the past), it is (as I mentioned above) Koizumi's continual official visits to the Yasakuni Jinja, where Japan's war dead (including war criminals) are enshrined. If you are saying that the Prime minister should halt this activity then I am in 100% agreement with you. But I think you are way over exaggerating the importance of this. While it does cause some diplomatic damage to Japan's reputation, when it comes to important issues (trade, security, etc.) it has absolutely no impact on Japan's relations with its neighbors.

I agree about the honoring of the war dead is wrong, i mentioned it above but disagree with you about it not being important.
Japan needs Asia Allies more than ever. Japan didn't have much competition in Asia because other Countries didn't practice capitalism. Not any more.
If you think public opinion isn't important then the Saudi's wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on radio ads in the united states promoting they are America's friend and a partner in the war on terror.

 

[bossel]

Who is Japans "Friend" in Asia?

See my post above, there are nations in Asia with friendly relations to Japan.

Oh is it? Go to China, Korea, Taiwan and do a poll on public opinion about the Japanese. I bet its a negative landslide

It may surprise you, but Asia is more than Japan, China, Korea & Taiwan. Although, if you really have such a limited view of Asia, that would explain why you aren't able to recognize Asian countries with positive relations to Japan.

While 90 percent of the Country is peaceful and thriving.

Peaceful? Oh well, that probably depends on the definition of peace.
Thriving? Do you actually have any economical data to back that up? For what I know, Iraqi economy is partially growing, but for the most part it's still below pre-occupation figures.

 

[senseiman]

Trading doesn't make you friends. Ok, maybe thats a better word. Who is Japans "Friend" in Asia?
And i might be a bit incoherent from medication now but I still think you don't get what I mean about Japan and its relations with other Asian Countries. You are playing spin doctor.

Oh is it? Go to China, Korea, Taiwan and do a poll on public opinion about the Japanese. I bet its a negative landslide

You don't need to go to a country to do that, lots of companies do public opinion polls. I wouldn't be at all suprised if a lot of people in countries occupied by Japan during the war had negative views about Japan. They have a right to be. There have been a lot of anti-Japan demonstrations in China recently, but in other countries like South Korea relations are much better and improving year by year.

Read the papers? of course bad news is the only news being broadcast out of Iraq. While 90 percent of the Country is peaceful and thriving. I know Marines in Iraq now. My cousin being one of them. I believe what they see then what I read in a socialist rag like the NY Times

I wasn't really interested in debating Iraq, I was just using that as an example to illustrate the point that travel to a country isn't a prerequisite to voicing one's opinion on it. I highly doubt that 90% of the country is peaceful and thriving though. I don't read the socialist press, but even the conservative papers like the wall street journal admit that unemployment is sky high, reconstruction has been ground to a halt by kidnappings of foreign workers and Iraq's main source of income, oil revenue, has been slashed by continual rebel attacks on pipelines. Hard to see what is thriving about all that.

I agree about the honoring of the war dead is wrong, i mentioned it above but disagree with you about it not being important.
Japan needs Asia Allies more than ever. Japan didn't have much competition in Asia because other Countries didn't practice capitalism. Not any more.
If you think public opinion isn't important then the Saudi's wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on radio ads in the united states promoting they are America's friend and a partner in the war on terror.

I don't think there is anything wrong with honoring war dead, I just think the honoring of war criminals is wrong. If public opinion were that important, the US would have invaded Iraq alone because the publics in every member of the 'coalition of the willing' were overwhelmingly against the war, including Japan and South Korea. As it is, I think Japan does have an interest in improving its relations with its foreign neighbors mainly because, as you implied, the economies in those countries are growing at a high rate. Koizumi is an idiot for not trying to do so, but in the end I don't think its going to matter in the long run. The generation that can remember Japanese atrocities will be dead within the next decade or two and presumably no government is going to let memories of events that happened more than half a century ago stand in the way of their national interests.

 

[Apollo]

For the people who want a good, although a short summary of the Tokyo War Crimes Trials, here is a link:
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/warcrimesvid.htm

Although it is an old introductory film, (pictures can be unclear) it serves good as an introduction and point of discussion I thought.

The Emperor Hirohito being excluded as a war criminal is still discussed today. Many books have recounted his imperial role in the events of the Second World War and his transformation after the war from "living god" to meek marine biologist and family man.

Recently, (well...in 2000), the professor of history at the State University of New York, Herbert Bix, came out with a book called "Hirohito - and the Making of Modern Japan, in which blame is put upon the Emperor Hirohito. Bix argues that the Emperor was leading participant in, and remains a key to understanding the major political and military events of Japan in the 20th century. Bix's main target is the post-war American -Japanese joint production of Hirohito's image as a constitutional figurehead who reigned but did not rule, like a "puppet."

Oh, I didn't mean to come with a looooong summary, it was just as an "appetizer" if someone here wanted to know about the question of the emperor in this period....

It was a controversial book (and still is) when it came out, and I would definately recommend this book!! A very good read!