Japanese Royal Tomb Opened to Scholars for First Time

tokapi · 5 May 2008

Tokis-Phoenix said:
It does have something to do with the 6th century tomb since it is important to find out how much Korean and Chinese bloodlines have a part to play in Japanese Royalty- determining the ancestory/bloodlines of the skeleton/s buried in the tomb (if there are any) and who exactly they were is very important in understanding Japanese society and Royalty.

Strong Chinese or Korean influences in the DNA of the individual/s in the tomb might help determine how much influence these countries had on each other in terms of intermarrying and politics etc- we may be able to find out new things.

So while this is just a 6th century Japanese royal tomb, it could shed important light on the origins of Japanese Royalty etc.

You're quite persistent

Ok,this is what I can tell you from reading online Japanese language sources & other NE Asia materials.

There is now a rumor circulates that one very powerful noble family during the 6th-7th centuries whose origin was Baekje Torai-jin not native Wa-jin.Through savvy political maneuverings and strong backings from court allies of Torai-jin heritage,this clan had a niece ascended to The Chrysanthemum Throne became Japan's first reigned empress.By the way,she married her own half-brother and bore 2 sons & 3 daughters.The advocators couldn't provide any substantial evidence though,so it's just a speculation until further archaelogical works.

I conceal their identities for now,because I want to wait and see if any nasty denial reactions from extreme J nationalists.

As for any credible direct Chinese bloodline,it's near 0 unless you consider Baekje's Puyo Royal House ( 夫餘族 ) & 8 noble family ( 百済八姓 ) were Chinese origin for being Yemaek ( 穢貊-Huimo is Chinese romanization of these 2 kanji ) from China's Shandong peninsula 3500 years ago.

Oh,this book ( cover photo attached ) revealed political intermarriages between Puyo Royalty & Han-Chinese military overlord family ( 公孫氏 ) during the time Han Dynasty established 4 Han commanderies included present day China's Liaoning province.

A History of Chinese Civilization

Amazon product ASIN 8933702040

caster51 · 5 May 2008

tokapi said:
A former Japanese prime minister is a direct offsping of Han-Chinese origin ( 秦氏 ) Hata clan.He did nothing to ease diplomatic tensions between Japan & China.
Tsutomu Hata - Wikipedia
So far,I haven't read any Hata ( 秦氏 ) or 西文氏 & 東漢氏 married into Yamato Royal House,except a 6th century reigned Japanese emperor was assassinated by Yamatoaya no Ataikoma ( 東漢直駒 ) of Torai-jin 東漢氏 heritage.

当時中原に住み、より東方起源と推定される殷族と西方からやってきた周族が混交し、今にいう漢民族の母胎ができあがったのだが、その母胎はすぐに秦族に撹乱された。また、春秋戦国時代の国家である楚、越も中原とは多分に異なる民族であったと考えられている。
漢民族 - Wikipedia
秦始皇の

眼の色は青かったとされ

、秦族は元々は西方の胡族であると考えられています

Hata (秦） tribe was said non-han(漢） tribe
秦 tribe was originally nomads. they had a blue eyes?

然而不盡如此，如果再往上推去，卻可以發現，從秦始皇建立秦朝以後的兩千兩百多年時間裡，漢族人當皇帝和成為統治民族的朝代只有漢朝一個，其他所有朝代全是非漢族人當皇帝執掌統治權而對漢人進行民族壓迫奴役的異族統治朝代。
比如，秦人所建秦國並由秦始皇滅亡六國而統一中國，建立中央集權的封建專制秦王朝，其秦人和秦始皇家族都不是炎黃子孫的中原華夏族人，而是原先為中原民族也就是後來所稱漢族放馬的外族人，據說他們是從格魯吉亞遷移過來的。人們在看過西安秦始皇兵馬俑後就可知道，這些秦軍將士的臉型根本不是中原人，而是地道的外族人長相。也就是說，秦始皇統一中國，實際上是非華夏中原人即非漢人武力征服漢族人而建立的外族統治王朝。也正因為外族秦人征服和統治漢族人

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:XQfxKA3tFX4J:news.epochtimes.com

caster51 · 5 May 2008

ancient chinese documents about wajin
倭・倭人関連の中国文献 - Wikipedia

夏王朝（han-chinese origine in myth)
Xia dynasty - Wikipedia
dictionary of minority races in china
http://www.tokyodoshoten.co.jp/t_shuppan/rekisi/tyugokusyosyu.htm

it is said Xia_Dynasty was found by eastern wajin 倭人( it does not means the Japanese)
so Han chinese dynasty were only han, song and ming dynasty..

秦族 had knowledge of Civil engineeringn, varoius technology such like middle east, greece and roman skill...

--------------------------
大秦 means Roman Empire
太秦 means Kyoto

tokapi · 5 May 2008

Japan's Hata clan ( 秦氏 ) ancestors were Chinese refugees when Han Dynasty destroyed Qin ( 秦 ).

The route was China's Shandong ( east of Yellow River ) > peninsula > Japan

Shandong Peninsula - Wikipedia

Through the Xia and Shang eras, the Ying clan ( founding family of Qin ) is said to have split into two branches

* an occidental one, who lived in Quanqiu (犬丘 dog hill), near modern Tianshui on the upper valley of the Wei

* an oriental one, who lived east of the Yellow River, and were the ancestors of the rulers of Zhao.

Qin (state) - Wikipedia

Who Was Qin Shihuangdi and What Was His Tomb Like?

caster51 · 5 May 2008

Book of Sui (in 636)
Book of Sui - Wikipedia
「新羅百濟皆以俀爲大國多珎物並敬仰之恒通使往來」
新羅・百濟は、みな俀を以て大国にして珍物多しとなし。並びにこれを敬い仰ぎて、恒に使いを通わせ往来す
Silla and kudara considerd WA was big country with respect.
there were so many rare articles in Japan,
they always sent a messengers to Japan
it is interesting ....

「大業三年其王多利思北孤遣使朝貢使者曰聞海西菩薩天子重興佛法故遣朝拜兼沙門數十人來學佛法」
大業三年，其の王多利思北孤，使いを遣わして朝貢す。使者曰く『海西の菩薩天子重ねて仏法を興すと聞く。故に遣わして朝拝せしめ，兼ねて沙門数十人来りて仏法を学ぶ。』と。
俀の王からの使者が来て、隋を訪問した目的を述べたことが記述されている。ここでは「海西の天子は、重ねて（熱心に）仏法を起こしていると聞いた。そのため沙門（僧侶）を送って仏法を学ぶために来たのだ」と述べている。
海西の菩薩天子とは、海の西の方の天子、すなわち、開皇11年（591年）菩薩戒により総持菩薩となった煬帝を指している。そして、この一節の直後に有名な「日出處天子致書日沒處天子無恙云云」の記述が続いている。
中国にとっても外来の教えである仏教を日本は受け入れ、仏法の超越性の概念を外交に取り入れることで、中国由来の儒教世界が描く中華と夷狄の区別や野蛮化外の地の概念に自ら縛られることなく、日本から見れば中国王朝は、「世界の中心でもなければ、中華などというものでもない。ただ（日本から見て）海の西にある国の1つなのだ、仏法を学びに来たのだ。」といわんばかりである

at that time, Japan considered chinese dynasty a Sunset emperor......

日出處天子致書日沒處天子無恙

tokapi · 5 May 2008

caster51 said:
at that time, Japan considered chinese dynasty a Sunset emperor..

It was Sui Dynasty's Emperor Yangdi ( 隋煬帝 ) referred Japan's Empress Suiko as such in earlier diplmatic correspondence as she petitioned to have 倭奴国 renamed to 日本 Japan.

* a Jref thread on " who named Japan .. Japan ? "

Who Named Japan - Japan?

I reckon someone don't respect history accuracies.

caster51 · 6 May 2008

＜国号改称記事＞

『舊唐書』卷一百九十九上列傳第一百四十九上東夷倭國日本國
「日本國者倭國之別種也以其國在日邉故以日本爲名或曰倭國自惡其名不雅改爲日本或云日本舊小國併倭國之地」
『新唐書』卷二百二十列傳第一百四十五東夷日本
「咸亨元年遣使賀平高麗後稍習夏音惡倭名更號日本使者自言國近日所出以爲名或云日本乃小國爲倭所并故冒其號使者不以情故疑焉」
『宋史』卷四九一外國伝日本國
「倭國者本倭奴國也自以其國近日所出故以日本爲名或云惡其舊名改之也」
『三国史記』「新羅本紀」文武王十年十二月
「倭國更號日本自言近日所出以爲名」

倭 - Wikipedia

after Battle of Baekgang, japan needed a new national system withTaihō Code.
according to New Book of Tang and Book of Tang....
it is written Japan where was small coutry annexed WA

and that is why it is said neme was changed befor 701

両書には「元々小国だった日本が倭国を併合した」という内容の記述もあり、これは天武天皇が弘文天皇の近江朝廷を滅亡させた壬申の乱を表していると一般的には理解されている。また、朝鮮半島の史書『三国史記』「新羅本紀」文武王十年（670年）12月条には、「倭国、号を日本に更む。自ら言う、日出づるに近きを以て名を為す」とある。

その後も日本国内では、しばらく日本を指して「倭」と呼ぶこともあったが、奈良時代中期頃（天平勝宝年間）から同音好字の「和」が併用されるようになり、次第に「和」が主流となっていった。

Battle of Baekgang - Wikipedia
Taihō Code - Wikipedia

BTW
jeju island
Jeju Island - Wikipedia
http://japanese.jeju.go.kr/contents/index.php?mid=030103&pno=0201

高麗史地理誌(第57巻)
Goryeosa - Wikipedia

神話の内容は、3人の神人が地面から吹き出ては荒地を歩きまわりながら狩りをし、その革で服を作って肉を食べながら暮している最中、子牛ㆍ子馬と五穀の種を持って来た碧浪国(一説では日本国)の3王女と結婚をして生活の場を開拓したという話である。

Jeju-do origine was three gods(aboriginal ) of jeju and Japanese Queens?

caster51 · 6 May 2008

i think wa(yamatai-koku) was in kyusyu
Yamatai - Wikipedia

Yamato(大和） Province" (in present-day Nara Prefecture) and generally for "Japan".

i dont know..
this matter is still disucussed.....

off topic
according to book of sui, wa was alo called 卑弥理国(himiri ,hibiri)
ユダヤ教を、漢字で表すと、猶太教
ユダヤ人（猶太人） Jew in chinese character 猶太
漢書の「地理誌」には、「師古曰倭音一戈反今猶有倭国
according to book of han, there was a Discussion Wa(倭） was sounded YU

古えの師が云うには、倭の音に関しては一つの論争があった、倭国有るところ、猶の音を反す

漢委奴國王印漢委奴国王印 - Wikipedia
nakoku
Nakoku - Wikipedia

奴...... han chinese knew they were slave, that is , 倭奴（ユド、ユダ）？

委 in japanese yuda neru

that is why wajin wanted to erase the shadow of yuda and chang the name?

tokapi · 6 May 2008

Tokis-Phoenix said:
The Chinese helped male the Japanese royalty as we know it today largely in the sense of its cultural influence.

"Around 400-300 BCE, the Yayoi people began to enter the Japanese islands, intermingling with the Jōmon. Most modern scholars say that the Yayoi emigrated from the southern part of the Korean peninsula to northern Kyūshū, though it has also been proposed that they came from southeastern China. [17] The Yayoi brought wet-rice farming and advanced bronze and iron technology to Japan.

Wu refugees ( 呉人 ) left present day China's Jiangsu province for southern Japan when their kingdom collapsed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(state)

* a Jref thread on " origin of Kimono - Gofuku 呉服 literally translated as Costume of Wu "

Origin of Kimono ( 呉服 )

There is positive shared *origin between modern southern Han-Chinese & a percentage of Japnese population.I could only match facial & physical similiarities between them 2 easily not so for northern Han-Chinese & Japanese,it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Hayato 隼人 & Kumaso 熊襲 were non-Yamato indigenous tribes of southern Kyūshū.They were actually *Austronesian-stock same as earliest inhabitants of southern China.

* read my posts in Jref thread on " NE Asian ALL LOOKALIKE "

Notion of ALL LOOK SAME (ALLLOOKSAME.com). Is it really true?

tokapi · 6 May 2008

Tokis-Phoenix said:
Majority Japanese originally came from Korea & China.

There are some Chinese regard those 2 NE Asian ethnicities are " basically Chinese people ".

At least one Taiwan friend said it to me,China's Shandong peninsula was the place of their origin and belonged to collective Dongyi ( 東夷 = eastern barbarians ).

Dongyi - Wikipedia

tokapi · 7 May 2008

caster51 said:
ユダヤ教を、漢字で表すと、猶太教
ユダヤ人（猶太人） Jew in chinese character 猶太
漢書の「地理誌」には、「師古曰倭音一戈反今猶有倭国

I don't know why you falsely link ancient Japanese to Jewish people or blue-eyed folks of Eurasia.:?

* U started this thread on " Ancient Japan & Jews "

Ancient Japan and the Jews

Even in modern time,many older Japanese ( very very tiny ages 70-90 ) are diminutive.They are obvious not of Semitic or Caucasian stock.

tokapi · 13 May 2008

Tokis-Phoenix said:
Other experts have suggested that the hesitation is because courtiers and conservatives fear excavation will uncover blood ties between the supposedly pure Japanese imperial line and the Asian mainland, specifically Korea.

But Walter Edwards, professor of Japanese studies at Tenri University in Nara, argues that the "Korean bones" issue is a red herring.

Japanese naturally reject half-truths stuff down their throats.

It's a lie that Japanese academic sources refused to acknowledge some of Japan's past noble families were of Baekje & Chinese origins.

Kudara no Konikishi clan - Wikipedia

Though,the fact remains Yamato Royal House paternal lineage was native Wa-jin heritage ( not foreign origin ) later interbred with Torai-jins.

caster51 · 13 May 2008

初期とくに桓武天皇の母（高野新笠）が百済系和氏であったため「百済王等者朕之外戚也。」（同二月二七日条）と厚遇を受けた。女子を桓武天皇・嵯峨天皇の後宮に入れ、天皇と私的なつながりを結んで繁栄を得た。本貫地河内国交野への天皇遊猟の記事は桓武朝以降、国史に多数見られる。

ﾋ彖人（wa-jin, Japanese)

1) afetr that ,she was killed in japan ...the story was so sad.....
do you know why I wrote like this?

and ....
★現天皇のゆかり発言で有名になった桓武天皇の母親の高野新笠の系図
武寧王[461年日本生まれ第25代百済王(在位501-523年)]
純陀太子在日１世（日本に人質に）
斯我君在日２世
法師君在日３世
雄蘇利紀君在日４世
和史宇奈羅在日５世（和氏に改名して日本に帰化）
和史粟勝在日６世
和史浄足在日７世
和史武助在日８世
和史乙継在日９世（娘を天皇家に嫁がせて高野姓を賜る）
高野朝臣新笠 在日１０世―桓武天皇[第50代天皇(在位781-806年)]

・・・つまり桓武天皇の母親の高野新笠は10代前に渡来し、6代前に日本に帰化した百済系10世なのです。
彼女の百済系の割合は1/(2^10)=0.00098。パーセントにすると0.098%となります

tokapi · 13 May 2008

It's a bigger lie that Baekje people founded Japan's Yamato Dynasty.

caster51 · 13 May 2008

It's a bigger lie that Baekje people founded Japan's Yamato Dynasty

bring a document....

平安時代は、初期とくに桓武天皇の母（高野新笠）が百済系和氏であったため「百済王等者朕之外戚也。」（同二月二七日条）と厚遇を受けた。女子を桓武天皇・嵯峨天皇の後宮に入れ、天皇と私的なつながりを結んで繁栄を得た。本貫地河内国交野への天皇遊猟の記事は桓武朝以降、国史に多数見られる。

in Heian era, kanmu said " kudara konikishi etc are my maternal relative because of Takano.
however ,takano was 10th generation of Zainich(as a Japanese) in bad luck

1st hostage was staked by Emperor
百済王族人質の歴史

蓋鹵王 (百済を高句麗の侵略から日本に守ってもらう為に日本に娘と弟を人質を送る)
池津媛 (蓋鹵王の娘。日本への人質｡雄略天皇との付き合いを拒否して他の男に付いた為火あぶり死刑)
軍君 (池津媛の変わりに送られた百済の蓋鹵王の弟)
武寧王 (軍君が人質として日本に来た時生まれた第25代百済王｡日本の島で生まれたのでSHIMA王と呼ばれる)
純陀太子在日１世（百済武寧王の子純陀太子。日本に人質として送られる）
斯我君在日２世 (百済王族の人質で純陀太子の子｡日本に定住)
法師君在日３世 (百済王族の人質子孫で斯我君の子)
雄蘇利紀君在日４世 (百済王族の人質子孫で法師君の子)
和史宇奈羅在日５世（和氏に改名して日本に帰化。日本人となりFUHITOへ地位を下げる）
和史粟勝在日６世 (日本人)
和史浄足在日７世 (日本人)
和史武助在日８世 (日本人)
和史乙継在日９世（日本人下級役人。娘を天皇家に嫁がせてTAKANOの姓を貰う）
高野新笠 在日１０世（日本人。733年、49代天皇光仁天皇の妾となるが、出身身分が低い為、死後まで皇后には成れなかった)

772年光仁天皇の本妻井上内親王と、その子他戸親王が謀反で失脚した為、後に高野新笠の子が天皇となる。これが第50代天皇・桓武天皇。

caster51 · 13 May 2008

窶佚ｩﾅｽﾃｫ窶堙坂?｢Sﾂ催鞘?堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶彖窶堙ｭ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堙?窶堋｢窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪﾂ、窶佚ｩ窶堙娯?ｰa窶堙最陳｢窶愿ｷ窶堙ｰ窶廃窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋ｽ窶堙淞、窶禿ｬ窶氾?陳｢窶堙ｰ窶徊ﾅｽE窶堋ｵ窶堙昶?堋ｸ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙個食窶廃窶堙俄?堙?窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙?窶堙娯?堙ｰ窶ｰaﾅｽﾃｦ(窶堋ｦ窶堙??堙ｨ)窶堙??堋｢窶堋｢ﾂ、ﾅ?vﾂ催猟工窶堙ｰ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙ｭ窶堋｢窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶｢Sﾂ催焦?ﾃｪ窶｢窶?窶堋ｭ窶堋ｾ窶堙ｧ窶堙娯?堙??堙鯛?堙?・ﾂ『窶板･窶氾淞』ﾂ職ﾋ?ｵ窶氾?窶堙遺?堙??堙?債ｬ窶慊ｯ窶堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙?｢q窶伉ｽ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ窶敕ｭﾂ債ｷ窶｢ﾃ岩?督ｯ窶堙固津ｪﾅ陳ｹ窶堙俄?堙遺?堙≫?堋ｽ(ﾂ『ﾂ塵窶佚慊』ﾂ。窶吮??ﾂ青｢ﾅｽj窶堙??堙坂?敕ｭﾂ債ｷ窶｢ﾃ岩?督ｯ窶堙ｰ窶伉債湘娯?堋ｵ窶堙?「窶敕ｱﾂ人ﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､)ﾂ。窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堙債、窶愿⇒?吮?堙遺?｢ﾂｶ窶ｰﾂｻ窶堙ｰ窶堙?窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶ｹA窶ｰﾂｻﾂ人窶堋ｪﾂ催昶?藩??愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堙??堙娯?佚寂?板ｧ窶堙ｰ窶敕ｰ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙淞、窶卍ｩ窶凖ｬ窶堋ｪ窶凖ｱ窶ｹﾅｸ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ「窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堋ｪﾅ停┐窶堋､ﾅｽdﾅｽ窶甜/B]ﾂ」窶堙ｰ窶露窶堙寂?堋ｴ窶堙ｩ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｦ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰﾅｽﾂｦ窶堋ｵﾂ、窶｢]窶ｰﾂｿ窶堙??堙??堙?窶堙可考窶堋ｦ窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙?窶伉ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ。

百済王氏 - Wikipedia

were they discriminated?
only kudara royalties got a Job as court official ?

Goguryeo
Goguryeo - Wikipedia
Goguryeo royalties
高麗氏 - Wikipedia
ﾂ坂?壺?ｹﾃ･窶氾ｭ窶ｰﾂ､窶伉ｰ窶堙ｰ窶歪ﾂ静ｦ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶從窶藩?地ﾅｽﾂ≫?伉ｰﾂ。ﾂ坂?壺?氾ｭ窶堙ｰﾅｽﾂ?・ﾂ青ｩﾂ（窶怒ﾂ青ｩﾂ）窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ。ﾂ青ｩﾂ（ﾆ谷ﾆ弛ﾆ値ﾂ）窶堙坂?ｰﾂ､ﾂ、窶卍ｩﾂ臣ﾂ。668窶扼窶堙個坂?壺?ｹﾃ･窶氾ｭ窶禿??鉄窶堙俄?堙ｦ窶堙ｨﾂ、窶禿ｱ1799ﾂ人窶堙個坂?壺?ｹﾃ･窶氾ｭﾂ人窶堋ｪ窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙俄?鉄窶督ｽ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ

tokapi · 13 May 2008

caster51 said:
bring a document....

I have 倭五王 ( 5 Wa Emperors 贊、珍、濟、興、武 ) refute any idiotic claim of Baekje origin for Yamato Dynasty.

* Source: Chinese 晉書 & 宋書 chronicles dated 413-478 A.D. ( 古代中國南朝史書中記載的倭國贊、珍、濟、興、武等五王 ).

I will provide English translations & links later from available reading material,bear with me.

caster51 · 14 May 2008

around 6th century, wajin and Yamato were dominated in korean peninsula...
there were many description and document in korea, japan and china.
The Emperor's origin might not be found in surveying the tomb.

at first, it should compare the tomb's size in korea and Japan..

magatama in korean tomb told that it came from Japan.
however, refugees,exile and professionals in various fields surely came to japan from korea and china.

it is said Goguryeo counting is similar with Japan more than korea

Concerning the historical connection between Japan and Manchuria – the Bokkai Alliance –
Balhae - Wikipedia

武藝啓。山河異域、國土不同。延聽風猷、但増傾仰。伏惟大王天朝受命、日本開基、奕葉重光、本枝百世。武藝忝當列國濫惣諸蕃、復高麗之舊居、有扶餘之遺俗。但以天涯路阻、海漢悠悠、音耗未通、吉凶絶問、親仁結援。庶叶前經、通使聘隣、始乎今日。謹遣寧遠將軍郎將高仁義・游將軍果毅都尉將徳周・別將舍那婁等廿四人、賚状、并附貂皮三百張、奉送。土宜雖賤用表獻芹之誠、皮幣非珍、還慚掩口之誚、主理有限、披膳未期。時嗣音徽、永敦隣好。

伏惟大王天朝受命、日本開基、奕葉重光、本枝百世
king of Balhae sent a message to Emperor seimu.
it said Balhae and Yamato were siblings ..
and it said Yamato and Balhae were same country before.

what is one country?

武藝忝當列國濫惣諸蕃、復高麗之舊居、有扶餘之遺俗。
they said "we recover the territory of Koguryo, and succeeded to the tradition of Buyeo
Buyeo - Wikipedia

China(Shang Dynasty) was a relation that had been said, "Dependancy" of Bueyo
After Qin Shi Huang had united all China, these facts were burnt.
that was, Book burning
Book burning - Wikipedia

China faked the history that surrounding
countries such as manchuria were "Dependancy or vassal state "
sinocentrism is the chinese complex..?

anyway
according to Hwandan Gogi(apocryphal book )
Hwandan Gogi - Wikipedia
夫余─┬高句麗──渤海
└南夫余─┬百済
└日本
BC 57, Emperor Sujin
Emperor Sujin - Wikipedia
he came from buyeo by way of korean peninsula...

by the way.
I think these story was not romantic.
i like takamagahara( Takaamahara, Taka-no-amahara, Takamanohara, Takamagahara) was named Takhla Makhan
Takamagahara - Wikipedia

caster51 · 14 May 2008

have 倭五王 ( 5 Wa Emperors 贊、珍、濟、興、武 ) refute any idiotic claim of Baekje origin for Yamato Dynasty

southern korean peninsula where wajins also settled.
mimana- japan government.

日本府行軍元帥 stationing naval officer as diplomatic reason?

倭五王 are not emperors

--------------------------------------------------

後漢書」の馬韓については「その北は楽浪と南は倭と接し、辰韓の東にあり」と記している。
また弁韓についても、「辰韓の南にあり、その南また倭と接す」とある。「三国志」も同じく
「馬韓は南で倭と接す」とある。さらに「弁辰は十二国のうち、讀盧（どくろ）国は倭と界を接す」
とある。

１．韓は帯方郡の南にあって、東西は海をもって境界とし、南は倭と接して
いる。韓の広さは４千里四方ほどである（韓伝）。
２．弁辰の国々から鉄を産出する。韓族・わい族・倭族が皆鉄をとっている。
どの市場の売買でも、みな鉄をもちいていて、それは中国で銭を用いるのと
同じである。（中略）男女の習俗は、ともに倭に近く、また、男女ともに文
身（いれずみ）をしている（第一弁辰伝）。
３．弁辰の涜廬国は倭と境界を接している（第二弁辰伝）。
５．帯方郡から倭にゆくには、郡を出発して、まず海岸に沿って航行し、韓族
の国をへて、しばらくは南に、しばらくは東に進んで、その北岸の拘邪韓国
に到達する。その間の距離は七千余里である（倭人伝２）。

『魏志韓伝』によれば「韓は帯方の南、東西は海を以て限となし、南は倭と接す」と
書かれてあり、朝鮮南部にも倭があったように認識されています。
同様に、かの『魏志倭人伝』でも倭の北岸は狗邪韓国、現在の金海市とされており、
弥生時代に朝鮮半島にも倭があったのは間違いがないと思われます。

「広開土王碑文」辛卯年条
広開土王が逃げる「倭」を追って「任那加羅従抜城に至」ったという記述から考えれば、
そこ（任那）が「倭」にとって逃げ帰るべき拠点であることが分かります。

一般的な認識では、「弁韓＝弁辰＝任那＝伽耶」が基本的な理解。
そして、馬韓→百済、辰韓→新羅、弁韓→任那という具合に発展したと考えられている。
ところが、実は、馬韓の北半分の国々が独立して百済が建国され、新羅も同様に一部の
国々が辰韓から独立し、一時、馬韓、辰韓、百済、新羅、任那は共存していた。
そして、任那も弁韓地方の南半分が倭の直轄地として独立したもので、弁韓と任那も
一時共存したと思われる。
安本美典氏の著書でも、半島南部の推定地図では、百済、新羅、弁辰（弁韓）、倭が
あって、弁辰国に接してその南に倭国の領土（任那）が描かれている。
そして、弁辰領内に涜廬国があって、倭との国境付近に位置づけられていた。

caster51 · 14 May 2008

It's a lie that Japanese academic sources refused to acknowledge some of Japan's past noble families were of Baekje & Chinese origins

Japan used the theory that Japan and korea was same because of
annexation . 内鮮一体

アジア歴史資料センター
国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション

tokapi · 14 May 2008

caster51 said:
倭五王 are not emperors

You're wrong

* 倭國五王贊、珍、濟、興、武
5 Emperors of Wa

Later,both academic Japanese & Chinese historians matched the 5 corresponding Kanji to the identified emperors 17th through 21th.

贊 : 履中天皇 ( Emperor Richū ) Emperor Richū - Wikipedia
珍 : 反正天皇 ( Emperor Hanzei ) Emperor Hanzei - Wikipedia
濟 : 允恭天皇 ( Emperor Ingyō ) Emperor Ingyō - Wikipedia
興 : 安康天皇 ( Emperor Ankō ) Emperor Ankō - Wikipedia
武 : 雄略天皇 ( Emperor Yūryaku ) Emperor Yūryaku - Wikipedia

* Source: Book of Song

caster51 · 14 May 2008

tokapi said:
You're wrong
* 倭國五王贊、珍、濟、興、武
5 Emperors of Wa
Later,both academic Japanese & Chinese historians matched the 5 corresponding Kanji to the identified emperors 17th through 21th.
贊 : 履中天皇 ( Emperor Richū ) Emperor Richū - Wikipedia
珍 : 反正天皇 ( Emperor Hanzei ) Emperor Hanzei - Wikipedia
濟 : 允恭天皇 ( Emperor Ingyō ) Emperor Ingyō - Wikipedia
興 : 安康天皇 ( Emperor Ankō ) Emperor Ankō - Wikipedia
武 : 雄略天皇 ( Emperor Yūryaku ) Emperor Yūryaku - Wikipedia
* Source: Book of Song

there is no discription like that in Japanese document.

「倭の五王」中の倭王武に比定されている

I think you can understand this meaning
and there is no document that they came from the direction of chinese
continental.

倭の五王の正体については今のところ不確定である。

一方、「倭の五王」の遣使の記録が『古事記』『日本書紀』に見られない[7]ことや、ヤマト王権のヤマト大王が、「倭の五王」のような讃、珍、済、興、武など一字の中国風の名を名乗ったという記録は存在しないため、「倭の五王」はヤマト王権の大王ではないとする説もある

。

倭の五王 - Wikipedia

珍.............自ら「使持節都督・百済・新羅・任那・秦韓・慕韓六国諸軍事安東太将軍倭国王」と称し、正式の任命を求める。（『宋書』倭国伝）
in 438, wajin already ruled kudara, silla...

tokapi · 17 May 2008

caster51 said:
Concerning the historical connection between Japan and Manchuria – the Bokkai Alliance –Balhae - Wikipedia

it said Balhae and Yamato were siblings .. and it said Yamato and Balhae were same country before.what is one country ?

Reckel says that Parhae ( 渤海 or Balhae ) indeed had a significant Mohe element to their population, it had to as the Tang took most of Koguryo's population and relocated them to the central plain as well as areas as remote as today's Burma. Out of the 600,000 households of the original Koguryo Kingdom, there was probably only 100,000 households left in Southern Manchuria, not enough to defend against Tang, Silla and Kihtan tribesman. The Mohe changed sides during the Tang/Koguryo wars. Traditional allies to the of Koguryo, the Mohe sided with Tang, but once they figured out that the Tang didn't really have any plans to develope or effectively rule the Northeast, they decided to revolt, using the distraction that the Khitan provided to do so. Da Go Wang ( 大祚榮 or Tae Jo Young in Korean pronounciation ) was a Mohe chieftan who was also a Koguryo general. He was ethnically Mohe, not Koguryo.

Mohe - Wikipedia

* read my posts in this thread

The Separation of the Japanese and Korean ethnic groups

Only if you believe Japan's Yamato Dynasty was founded by Baekje's Puyo clan.

A businessman turned amateur historian Mr Wontack Hong fancied such theory with his book.

http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html

Balhae Kingdom's royal family was of Puyo heritage 夫餘族 ( originally Yemaek 穢貊 from China's Shandong peninsula 3500 years ago -Huimo is Chinese romanization of these 2 kanji .)

caster51 · 18 May 2008

according to various documents, it is said
313, Nintoku( Japanese Royal Tomb Opened to Scholars for First Time )enthronement
346, wa invaded silla
364, wa retreated from silla
365 Nintoku odered to invade silla again
391. wa conguered kudara and silla.
397 kudara king sent a prince as a hostage to wa
399 Nintoku died
400, wa fought against Koguryo. wa retreated from silla again.
403 wa attacked silla with kudara again.
404 wa was defeated by Koguryo.
Empress Jingū. AD 169 - 269
.......... Legend has it that she led an army in an invasion of Korea and returned to Japan victorious after three years.............
Empress Jingū - Wikipedia
Gwanggaeto Stele
Gwanggaeto Stele - Wikipedia
these are corresponding. so is chinese document.

Chinese scholars participated in the study after 1980s. Wang Jianqun interviewed local farmers and decided the intentional fabrication did not occurred and the lime was pasted by local copy-making workers to enhance readability.[12] Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences discovered the earliest rubbed copy which was made before 1881. He also concluded that there was no evidence Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters

I think it is important where they came from because of their identity.
however, there is no such document at all
at least, they never felt that at that time.
I think today's korea is not related with Koguryo because of silla
it is sure that Japan had deepper relation with Koguryo than today's korean

A businessman turned amateur historian Mr Wontack Hong fancied such theory with his book.
http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publica.../paekch_e.html

日本学者が韓国の歴史を勝手に歪曲した文章を見ると、我慢できなかったんです

http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20030418000033
can he read hanja?

his theory is not based on those documents at all..

根拠は『日本書紀』と『古事記』、『三国史記』、『三国遺事』、中国の正史など文献記録と、考古学的遺物などだ。

I dont know what document there are ?
what ancient remains are

tokapi · 18 May 2008

caster51 said:
according to various documents, it is said

313, Nintoku( Japanese Royal Tomb Opened to Scholars for First Time )enthronement
346, wa invaded silla
364, wa retreated from silla
365 Nintoku odered to invade silla again
391. wa conguered kudara and silla.
397 kudara king sent a prince as a hostage to wa
399 Nintoku died
400, wa fought against Koguryo. wa retreated from silla again.
403 wa attacked silla with kudara again.
404 wa was defeated by Koguryo.

Empress Jingū. AD 169 - 269

.......... Legend has it that she led an army in an invasion of Korea and returned to Japan victorious after three years.............

Empress Jingū - Wikipedia

Wa Japan never successfully conquered any of peninsula's 3 kingdoms,those campaigns were merely military excursions.Colonization of 1910-1945 was the only period that Japan swallowed the entire peninsula.Well,Japan Empire had to extract it from Imperial China's iron grip.

Korea under Japanese rule - Wikipedia

Many facts point to Japan have always been military capable and also blessed by the fact there was no powerful seafaring empire on the Asia continent ( Mongols tried but failed,much thanks to shoddy built warships ) comparable to Spanish or British naval might could subjugate Japan by force,so it's silly to entertain any fantasy that Yamato or predecessor tribal Wa-jins were ever militarily conquered by Chinese or the other NE Asian in the past history ( man,I hate inflated ego out of inferiority complex ).

Empress Jingu remains a legend until concrete archaeological findings substantiate her true identity.

Japanese Royal Tomb Opened to Scholars for First Time

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