Japanese-American is first officer to refuse to go to Iraq

[RockLee]

He should at the very least receive his Other than Honorable discharge and be barred from any benefits due to him.

Agree. He knew what he signed up for. But then there is indeed the fact if this is actually a legal war :?

 

[DoctorP]

There is no such thing as a "Legal" war. War by design is illegal in that you cross another countries border and proceed to shoot them...what could be legal about it?

 

[senseiman]

At International law, there are two ways in which a war can be legally fought. One is a war in self defence, the other is a war fought with Security council authorization (like the first Gulf War).

The Iraq war really fails on both counts.

 

[ArmandV]

Agree. He knew what he signed up for. But then there is indeed the fact if this is actually a legal war :?

Soldiers aren't allowed to decide what is a legal war or not. Theirs is to follow orders.

 

[taehyun]

on CNN

Bush on Kerry remark: U.S. troops are 'plenty smart' - CNN.com
I think this comes just in place!

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I agree with others who say that it is part of the job of being a soldier to go where you are sent and except in extreme cases, following orders. The order to go to Iraq is not, from a soldier's point of view, even close to being an extreme case. It may be unwelcome, as Iraq is not the safest place one coud get stationed, but danger is part of the job.

I think that any soldier who refuses to obey orders, except in extreme cases or in cases that clearly violate the Geneva Convention, should be punished. I think that the fact he offerred to go to Afghanistan instead is beside the point.

 

[Sukotto]

At International law, there are two ways in which a war can be legally fought. One is a war in self defence, the other is a war fought with Security council authorization (like the first Gulf War).
The Iraq war really fails on both counts.

And Nuremburg said that citizens, soldiers or non-, have a responsibility to a higher power that supercedes national laws. "just following orders" was not a sufficient excuse to be not guilty in Germany 1940s

It is our failure in teaching kids not to question authority.
"Because I said so" is a poor excuse. Because I'm a cop. Because
I'm the adult. Becuase I'm the teacher. Because I can squash you
like a bug. I know, parenting is difficult, but we've just got to find another way. The above is essentially might makes right. Might does not make
moral. 'unless you say so, of course. don't hurt me'. If we removed the might from authority, could the authority still stand? Perhaps that is
a standard for justice? I don't know. I am totally b.s.ing at this point.



I hate to put it like this, because now it is serious, but back
during high school we used to joke:
"just follow orders like a good #German# ".
That was years ago and totally apolitical.

However in the real world in the 21st century responsiblity STILL lies with those the have the power/authority to order others around. It is called command responsibility and the crime against peace is the first war crime which all others follow from.

 

[Sukotto]

I do not know why Lt Watada would want to skip Iraq because it is in violation of international law and go to Afghanistan instead.

It seems the invasion of Afghanistan was illegal as well.

"my first post at jref.com"
on the thread titled:
War Crime Trial Bush-Saddam-Blair
War Crime Trial Bush-Saddam-Blair


-
'the driving force in any war is always based in greed'

 

[MajideSaiaku]

If leaders were so unaccountable we wouldnt have situations where soldiers are really struggling between their oath of alleigance to military justice and order, and their loyalty to their ethics and the rule of laws and freedom and human rights enshrined in US society.


I dunno about America but in Britain I find it really annoying when its said "When Britain went to war alongside America" or "Britain is part of the coalition" or "Britain supports the war with soldiers".

This is because the vast Majority of britons opposed the war and wanted nothing to do with it, and despite big marches and a massive no, Blair went and committed us to a war Britain infact didnt support and didnt want it, and honestly, it makes me so angry how he just blatantly disregarded the majority opinion of his people.

He should have been lynched there and then but he keeps getting away with it, probably because Britain isnt like other countries where you could get deposed for such deplorable actions.

Blair kept talknig about struggling with his morals and ethics and all that, SCREW THAT, wether to invade a country or not on false grounds has nothing to do with your touchy feely feelings, its got to do with the majority will, wether you agree or not, after those marches and stuff he should have kept Britain out the war but instead he said "me too1" and got behind Bush.


Wars are serious bussiness, people DIE...committing to war should be a bit harder and more difficult then a premier just being able to say "off to war chaps" or "saddle up, cowboys" and then off thousands of men and women go to die for the noble defence of their country, by attacking another that poses no actual threat.

Offensive warfare should be a process which requires a bit stricter checks on it then the whims of the current leader.

 

[Sukotto]

Wars are serious bussiness, people DIE...committing to war should be a bit harder and more difficult then a premier just being able to say "off to war chaps" or "saddle up, cowboys" and then off thousands of men and women go to die for the noble defence of their country, by attacking another that poses no actual threat.

Major General Smedley Butler (re) of the US Marine Corps, one of the, if not the most highly decorated soldier the US has ever had suggests that,

only those doing the fighting should vote on whether we go to war or not,

also weapons manufacturing, the profit should be taken out of it and
all the people that run weapons manufacturing plants and all the congress people and senators should get paid the same as the lowest paid soldier who fights in the trenches.
War is a Racket says Smedley Darlington Butler, who has a Marine base at Okinawa named after him.


It is strange (or perhaps not since they might say 'you havn't seen what i've seen') that so many veterans have turned against war completely.
Besides the above Butler:
War Turned Eisenhower Into a Pacifist or so says his son.

 

[nice gaijin]

I highly recommend the documentary "Why We Fight" for those who are looking for a better understanding of why America is constantly at war, and why it's currently impossible to separate the economics of war from the compulsion to go to war. I believe it's available on DVD now.

 

[Sukotto]

It is also available online streaming:

Why We Fight
Military Industrial Complex

 

[bexchurnside]

That's the typical response i would expect from somebody like you, a true American "patriot". If you're the proud American you claim to be, why don't YOU go to Iraq? I think he has a good right to NOT get being shot in Iraq. For starters this was a war Bush set up to justify his own little crusade against war on terrorism. A meaningless fight for his own selfish ***. Weapons of mass destruction, haven't seen any of those, did you?

I think Lt. Ehren Watada is a hero for having not gone to war. Perhaps if Watada finds it hard to live in the US after this controversy, would it be possible if he wanted to go to Japan and request Japanese citizenship being 50% Japanese descent?

 

[JimmySeal]

This soldier is no hero. Do you think everyone in Iraq right now supports this war, or ever supported this war? They fight because it is their duty. This person signed up knowing full well that there was a war going on in Iraq and enjoyed the benefits of being in the military and when it came time to pay his dues, he decided to be a chickens***. This shows that he believes his own life to be more valuable than that of the people over in Iraq, and as someone with several friends who have gone there (though they didn't want to), I take issue with that.
This man is nothing but a coward.

 

[bexchurnside]

This soldier is no hero. Do you think everyone in Iraq right now supports this war, or ever supported this war? They fight because it is their duty. This person signed up knowing full well that there was a war going on in Iraq and enjoyed the benefits of being in the military and when it came time to pay his dues, he decided to be a chickens***. This shows that he believes his own life to be more valuable than that of the people over in Iraq, and as someone with several friends who have gone there (though they didn't want to), I take issue with that.
This man is nothing but a coward.

No, but at the end of the day, Lt. Watada CAN legally become a Japanese national on the basis of his ancestry. Japan would NOT deny him a passport. Imagine if, Lt. Watada worked on a US Army base as an American Lieutenant in Okinawa, and then later lived in Okinawa as a regular Japanese after giving up his US Nationality. I feel that if Watada renounced not only his commission, but became a Japanese national, he cannot be jailed in a US Military prision for the charges that are made against him. The reason is that there is no policy to extradite a Japanese national who is not a US citizen for committing the so called offences that he made. I know it is a loophole, but there is no agreement between the US and Japan regarding a Japanese national committing crimes as a US Soldier, since on paper, that would be an impossibility. Of course, Watada would probably never be able to get back on American soil, but Watada would then be considered only a Japanese national CIVILIAN.

No, but at the end of the day, Lt. Watada CAN legally become a Japanese national on the basis of his ancestry. Japan would NOT deny him a passport. Imagine if, Lt. Watada worked on a US Army base as an American Lieutenant in Okinawa, and then later lived in Okinawa as a regular Japanese after giving up his US Nationality. I feel that if Watada renounced not only his commission, but became a Japanese national, he cannot be jailed in a US Military prision for the charges that are made against him. The reason is that there is no policy to extradite a Japanese national who is not a US citizen for committing the so called offences that he made. I know it is a loophole, but there is no agreement between the US and Japan regarding a Japanese national committing crimes as a US Soldier, since on paper, that would be an impossibility. Of course, Watada would probably never be able to get back on American soil, but Watada would then be considered only a Japanese national CIVILIAN.

I actually want people to find a way to help Lt. Watada get out of facing his charges by taking up Japanese nationality to avoid a lengthy prision term. With such a controversy, if he lived in the USA, someone might even try shooting him. For the sake of his life, I think that if anyone knows about laws, etc, to contact him and arrange for this. Even to bring this idea out in the open is a good start, I think. I know if I was caught in this situation, I would do so.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Let Japan have a coward.

 

[nice gaijin]

Why would you want him to take advantage of his ancestry to weasel his way out of the hole he's dug for himself? Let him accept the consequences for his own actions. Back during the Vietnam war, we had people who were willing to be imprisoned for their anti-war beliefs. Have we come so far down the path of irresponsibility and passing the buck that you are suggesting that this officer who joined DURING the war should exploit his roots just to get out of his well-deserved court-martial?

Also, I believe it's been pointed out several times that Watada is an AMERICAN. Do you think that all people of Japanese descent have some deep-seated desire to "return" to Japan and become Japanese?

 

[Goldiegirl]

Oh, I am not saying he shouldn't accept the consequences of his own actions here in the US. But, my idea is if he wants to be a coward, fine weasel your way out if Japan will have you. I just can't imagine the Japanese wanting a coward...and an American coward at that. It was said tongue-in-cheek...

 

[JimmySeal]

I think nice gaijin was mostly replying to bexchurnside, who has yet to demonstrate how exactly this man is a hero.

 

[Goldiegirl]

So sorry, I didn't mean to take anything the wrong way. I wrote a a very short sentence without adding any other thoughts than the first one that came to me!
:sorry:

 

[craftsman]

OK. If anyone is interested in a discussion that is not throwing around the word 'chicken' or 'coward' or some other emotive expression, take a look at this...


I think our soldier friend did something that he knew was going to ruin his life, at least for a while, on the basis of a principle he thought he should stand up for. Quite what the connection is between the fact that he has some Japanese blood in his veins I am lost to explain. I guess that even though he joined during the war, he, like most of the population knew little about the real reasons behind the war and what was happening in Iraq.


Now - why on earth would a soldier in the US military want to turn around and reject the very people he vowed to serve and have the full force of military law bear down on him?


Well. Maybe firstly. Iraq is no ordinary war.


At the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal in 1946, Nazi leaders like Goering, von Ribbentrop, Jodl and Streicher were sentenced to death by hanging for

"Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing."

(Article 6, Charter of the International Military Tribunal, August 8, 1945, http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html)


It is indisputable, in light of the mountains of evidence that appeared over the last few years, that the current leaders of Britain and the United States are responsible for just such a conspiracy. The UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, someone who by the very nature of his job has to choose his words carefully, believes the invasion was "illegal" and clearly in breach of the UN Charter.


Many people also believe that initiating a war of aggression is,

"the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole".

(Quoted, Walter J. Rockler, ﾂ'War crimes law applies to U.S. too,' Chicago Tribune, May 23, 1999)


So, whether you agree with this or not, and I can see no reason why not after seeing the evidence mount up, he certainly believes it.


Should a soldier therefore be allowed to have a conscience? Can they have a conscience in extreme cases like a war crime?


Normally, the implicit assumption is that signing a contract and being paid to do a job absolves us of all further moral responsibility. We have signed an agreement to do as we are told - an ostensibly innocuous act. If the people with whom we made this agreement then choose to send us to 'bring democracy' or should I say illegally occupy and subjugate the population, that is their moral responsibility, not ours.


But he had also spoken to veterans who helped him make up his mind:


Veterans like US soldier Camilo Mejia who refused to return to his unit in Iraq after taking leave in October 2003:

ﾂ"People would ask me about my war experiences and answering them took me back to all the horrors ﾂ― the firefights, the ambushes, the time I saw a young Iraqi dragged by his shoulders through a pool of his own blood or an innocent man was decapitated by our machine gun fire. The time I saw a soldier broken down inside because he killed a child, or an old man on his knees, crying with his arms raised to the sky, perhaps asking God why we had taken the lifeless body of his son. I thought of the suffering of a people whose country was in ruins and who were further humiliated by the raids, patrols and curfews of an occupying army.

ﾂ"And I realized that none of the reasons we were told about why we were in Iraq turned out to be true... I realized that I was part of a war that I believed was immoral and criminal, a war of aggression, a war of imperial domination. I realized that acting upon my principles became incompatible with my role in the military, and I decided that I could not return to Iraq.ﾂ"
(Mejia, ﾂ'Regaining My Humanity,'

www.codepink4peace.org/National_Actions_Camilo.shtml)


Or maybe ex-Marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey who said:

"It sickened me so that I had actually brought it up to my lieutenant, and I told him, I said, ﾂ'You know, sir, we're not going to have to worry about Iraq - you know, we're basically committing genocide over here, mass extermination of thousands of Iraqis...'"

(www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/24/148212)


So, if he had of spoken to these people and decided that the decision to go to war itself was a war crime based on lies and then realised that the situation on the ground in Iraq was only increasing the suffering for Iraqis, I for one think it was a brave decision.


In 1937, Rudolf Rocker wrote:

"It is certainly dangerous for a state when its citizens have a conscience; what it needs is men without conscience, or, better still, men whose conscience is quite in conformity with reasons of state, men in whom the feeling of personal responsibility has been replaced by the automatic impulse to act in the interests of the state."

(Rocker, Culture and Nationalism, Michael E. Coughlan, 1978, p.197)


The world is a better place when a person, whatever their job may be and whatever bit of paper they signed, still knows right from wrong and is not afraid to act on it.


What really counts according to the 2nd century sage, Nagarjuna, is:

ﾂ"Not doing harm to others,
Not bowing down to the ignoble,
Not abandoning the path of virtue –
These are small points, but of great
Importance.ﾂ"​

 

[bexchurnside]

Why would you want him to take advantage of his ancestry to weasel his way out of the hole he's dug for himself? Let him accept the consequences for his own actions. Back during the Vietnam war, we had people who were willing to be imprisoned for their anti-war beliefs. Have we come so far down the path of irresponsibility and passing the buck that you are suggesting that this officer who joined DURING the war should exploit his roots just to get out of his well-deserved court-martial?
Also, I believe it's been pointed out several times that Watada is an AMERICAN. Do you think that all people of Japanese descent have some deep-seated desire to "return" to Japan and become Japanese?

Out of a practical necessity. It is either that, OR BE IN JAIL IN THE STATES!
I am not saying that he doesn't want to be American, but as my Canadian boyfriend points out, (and you can see Canadians are all Anti-War anyway), that Michael Moore's Fareignheight 9-11 has unearthed some ills that were not previously evident. Thus, it would be practical for Lt. Watada to take a Japanese nationality that would be guranteed for him.
Perhaps this is a perspective that only someone who lived in Canada for a given time can come to appreciate this perspective. But Kenichi told me that if he was Watada, he would give up being American and run to Japan. Watada is of Okinawa descent.
On the other side, if he were to become newly Japanese, in Okinawa, and the American troops saw him, do you think they would say, "Hey it's Watada, now he is a Japanese civilian! I thought you Japanese are supposed to have honour! How could you dare become Japanese when you were too much of a coward to even for an American?"
But Kenichi says that the Japanese have changed, and it would be sterotypical to think this way. He told me that Japanese are like Canadians in that they aren't too keen into fighting either. He even suggested Canada give up having a military altogether as the US would be there for Canada anyway.

 

[bexchurnside]

OK. If anyone is interested in a discussion that is not throwing around the word 'chicken' or 'coward' or some other emotive expression, take a look at this...
I think our soldier friend did something that he knew was going to ruin his life, at least for a while, on the basis of a principle he thought he should stand up for. Quite what the connection is between the fact that he has some Japanese blood in his veins I am lost to explain. I guess that even though he joined during the war, he, like most of the population knew little about the real reasons behind the war and what was happening in Iraq.
Now - why on earth would a soldier in the US military want to turn around and reject the very people he vowed to serve and have the full force of military law bear down on him?
Well. Maybe firstly. Iraq is no ordinary war.
At the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal in 1946, Nazi leaders like Goering, von Ribbentrop, Jodl and Streicher were sentenced to death by hanging for
(Article 6, Charter of the International Military Tribunal, August 8, 1945, http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html)
It is indisputable, in light of the mountains of evidence that appeared over the last few years, that the current leaders of Britain and the United States are responsible for just such a conspiracy. The UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, someone who by the very nature of his job has to choose his words carefully, believes the invasion was "illegal" and clearly in breach of the UN Charter.
Many people also believe that initiating a war of aggression is,
(Quoted, Walter J. Rockler, ﾂ'War crimes law applies to U.S. too,' Chicago Tribune, May 23, 1999)
So, whether you agree with this or not, and I can see no reason why not after seeing the evidence mount up, he certainly believes it.
Should a soldier therefore be allowed to have a conscience? Can they have a conscience in extreme cases like a war crime?
Normally, the implicit assumption is that signing a contract and being paid to do a job absolves us of all further moral responsibility. We have signed an agreement to do as we are told - an ostensibly innocuous act. If the people with whom we made this agreement then choose to send us to 'bring democracy' or should I say illegally occupy and subjugate the population, that is their moral responsibility, not ours.
But he had also spoken to veterans who helped him make up his mind:
Veterans like US soldier Camilo Mejia who refused to return to his unit in Iraq after taking leave in October 2003:
www.codepink4peace.org/National_Actions_Camilo.shtml)
Or maybe ex-Marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey who said:
(www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/24/148212)
So, if he had of spoken to these people and decided that the decision to go to war itself was a war crime based on lies and then realised that the situation on the ground in Iraq was only increasing the suffering for Iraqis, I for one think it was a brave decision.
In 1937, Rudolf Rocker wrote:
(Rocker, Culture and Nationalism, Michael E. Coughlan, 1978, p.197)
The world is a better place when a person, whatever their job may be and whatever bit of paper they signed, still knows right from wrong and is not afraid to act on it.
What really counts according to the 2nd century sage, Nagarjuna, is:

I think your arguement is good. After all, I like to also add, how would it be wrong for someone who vowed to protect his country to decide against it, if his country forced him to commit war crimes? To want to leave a country of such nature might not be outside his reach if you or someone could tell that to Watada. If I were to make this analogy with marriage, let's say I marry Kenichi, and then he told me later that he is also marrying a Japanese lady, and that she was going to be married to him under Japan, and I under Canada, and told me that he is faithful to me and is single as a Canadian, and all the other stuff were revealed later, I would leave him too. I would be so mad that I would tell the Japanese embassy that he has Canadian citizenship in this case.

I think he upheld his vows to protect the people from committing war-crimes. In reality, I think he should be given the Congressional Medal of Honour down the road by some future Democratic President.

L

 

[nice gaijin]

two points: One, is Watada even considering attempting this sham to avoid military justice, or does he intend to stand his ground as many of us has stated he should? As I said, conscientious objectors refused to go to war and many were willing to go to prison to make their statement (granted the situations are not entirely paralell). Without knowing what his intentions are, all of this is just conjecture.

Secondly, if Watada was foolish enough to do this and go hang around a US base, he probably wouldn't be heckled for being a Japanese with no honor; he'd get his *** kicked (or worse) for being an officer that abandoned his post at a time of war. I'm not saying that's what he deserves, but it sounds like a more likely response than whispering behind his back.

 

[bexchurnside]

two points: One, is Watada even considering attempting this sham to avoid military justice, or does he intend to stand his ground as many of us has stated he should? As I said, conscientious objectors refused to go to war and many were willing to go to prison to make their statement (granted the situations are not entirely paralell). Without knowing what his intentions are, all of this is just conjecture.

Secondly, if Watada was foolish enough to do this and go hang around a US base, he probably wouldn't be heckled for being a Japanese with no honor; he'd get his *** kicked (or worse) for being an officer that abandoned his post at a time of war. I'm not saying that's what he deserves, but it sounds like a more likely response than whispering behind his back.

Sure. But his entire life could be in danger if he roamed around the streets in the USA! You only need one patriotic redneck to kick his ***! And those vietnam war resisters, how many Americans became Canadian? I am speaking completely out practicality in a life or death situation. Does anyone know if Lt. Watada can speak and write Japanese? Does anyone have his email? I like to suggest this idea of him taking Japanese Citizenship or even taking Canadian citizenship!! By the way, Canadians would not boo him at all for what he did! I wouldn't be surprised if a Canadian university even game him an honority doctorate for world peace. I feel he was a solider for standing up to the legalities. Watada is unique in that he refused to fight on the basis of legality, and even asked to be deployed in Afghanistan. This shows that it was the illegal assignment, and not his patriotism that was the issue. I know that my fiance nor I would not fight even if a WW3 came around!