Japan submissive towards China?

Hiroshi66 · 28 Dec 2004

I doubt it.. as the Chinese Republic was the one government that has never conquered Tibet.. now if he stepped foot in the mainland he would be a political prisoner.. but not in the safe shores of the republic..

shiroma · 29 Dec 2004

Dalai Lama visited Yasukuni Shrine on Nov. 1st 1980, two years after Class A war climinals were enshrined in 1978. Any complaint by communist China about that? None.

Former prime minister Zenko Suzuki had visited Yasukuni two weeks before that (Oct. 18th 1980) and Chinese complained? Never.

Zenko Suzuki as a PM visited Yasukuni again on Apr. 21st and Aug. 15th 1981 and, no complaints whatsoever heard from Beijing.

Hiroshi66 · 30 Dec 2004

Yes.. but the Dalai Lama visited the shores of the republic would really cause an outcry. I mean the spiritual leader of a conquered people is visiting the arch nemesis of the rebels.. maybe you don't see it the way I do but I think it would cause a louder outcry than the Yasukuni occurances.

kinjo · 22 Jan 2005

we do not care abt yr money,we do not want yr regrets,what we need is a war,we will not care abt u and yr helpers

kinjo · 22 Jan 2005

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bossel · 22 Jan 2005

ryazanov said:
we do not care abt yr money,we do not want yr regrets,what we need is a war,we will not care abt u and yr helpers

Have to warn you. If you're here to stir up trouble, you'll be gone sooner than later.

lexico · 22 Jan 2005

late question

Eisuke said:
"We eagerly look forward, therefore, to the emergence of a self-possessed Japan, insistent upon its policy-making autonomy and its equal stake in the maintenance of peace and security of all parties in the region."

This is just a matter of time before Japan is a normal country once again.

Hi, Eisuke, I'm new to the thread.
Can you give me an exact reference of the passage you quoted?
I'm interested b/c it sounds mysteriously similar to the rhetoric of the 1920's-1940's while Japan pushed for expansion and regional commonwealth in East Asia styled 窶佚･窶愬塚慊ｱ窶ｹﾂ､ﾅｾﾃ?｡ﾅｸ. I hope I got the kanjis right.

Hiroshi66 · 23 Jan 2005

Nice to see you here, lexico-san.

Ryazanov, get the heck out of this board. There have been a thousand anti-Japanese here before, and there will be a thousand after you. There fate eventually is always the same. So save the mods the trouble and leave peacefully.

kiuyiw · 23 Jan 2005

lol it's so funny. I don't think chinese government will launch a war toward japan. They are not stupid. otherwise they would already start to invade taiwan. they didn't do it because usa is around.

Hiroshi66 · 24 Jan 2005

It is.. but I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. Most of the Chinese ultra-communists on this board are like that.

lexico · 24 Jan 2005

Greetings!

Hiroshi66 said:
Nice to see you here, lexico-san.

Hey, good to bump into you here, Hiroshi-san!
The other 731 thread got busted...I guess.
The photos...it might have been too much for some members.
It's pretty hard to be objective, because we're all human.

I have quite a bit to catch up here.
There's been a lot of talk about Chinese government officials being rude and aggressive in the Korean news this past yr.
Having studied the language for so many yrs, I am emotionally attached, and it is quite uncomfortable for me.
Why would China press for that kind of "symbolic" agression when ther is no practical justification for doing so?
They have everything to lose IMO.
Moral support doesn't come cheap.
Without it, look at what the US is facing every day. A living nightmare.
Something quite unthinkable when she was playing the good guy decades back.
As for China, I presume it must be something in the schools and the media.
It'll change some day, but when?
When can we say, let's all get along?

Shooter452 · 24 Jan 2005

scotsboyuk said:
@Hiroshi66

If China invaded Japan I think the U.S. would do more than 'help'. Any military aggression againts Japan by China would no doubt be in the context of a wider conflict involving Taiwan and/or North Korea too. The U.S., and likely NATO forces, would become involved in the war, the result, of which would almost certainly involve the defeat of China and/or North Korea, but with the possibility of massive human and material damage, not to mention the likely use of WMD.

China invade Japan? Never happen. The US Seventh Fleet is there just to prevent such an action, and Beijing knows it. It is also the Seventh Fleet that keeps any real threat against Taiwan from happening.

Despite any increase of naval forces that the PRC has managed in the last fifty years, they cannot oppose US sea power in open water, and they know it. The very best that the PRC can accomplish is the utter destruction of its naval forces and much more ashore if they send up the balloon. They have war gamed it several times (so have we) and when they are not in their "self-deception mode" they lose everytime, and they lose BIG!

They may maul a carrier task group or two, but once the advantage of surprise is gone, they lose everything that floats, flies, or crawls along the ground. While their manpower losses are replaceable, their material losses are not.

This is without a single US land warfare element getting involved nor a single nuclear weapon being deployed.

Age. Fac ut gaudeam!

Hiroshi66 · 24 Jan 2005

People have been afraid of the mainland rebels for years, especially the people on the Republic in Taiwan Province. I am hoping the Chinese Republic will be reinstated at Nanjing soon - so that people, especially Japan, are proven that the Communists aren't all that they seem.

kiuyiw · 24 Jan 2005

Shooter452 said:
China invade Japan? Never happen. The US Seventh Fleet is there just to prevent such an action, and Beijing knows it. It is also the Seventh Fleet that keeps any real threat against Taiwan from happening.

Despite any increase of naval forces that the PRC has managed in the last fifty years, they cannot oppose US sea power in open water, and they know it. The very best that the PRC can accomplish is the utter destruction of its naval forces and much more ashore if they send up the balloon. They have war gamed it several times (so have we) and when they are not in their "self-deception mode" they lose everytime, and they lose BIG!

They may maul a carrier task group or two, but once the advantage of surprise is gone, they lose everything that floats, flies, or crawls along the ground. While their manpower losses are replaceable, their material losses are not.

This is without a single US land warfare element getting involved nor a single nuclear weapon being deployed.

Age. Fac ut gaudeam!

letz not make it so sure. technology are not everything. Like in the korea war. no one believe chinese can stop usa's feet to unite korea before they actually did it. I think some kind of believe plays an important role. something like japan's kamikaze in WWII??

PatrioticChineseguy · 24 Jan 2005

China and Japan relationship

Despite any increase of naval forces that the PRC has managed in the last fifty years, they cannot oppose US sea power in open water, and they know it. The very best that the PRC can accomplish is the utter destruction of its naval forces and much more ashore if they send up the balloon. They have war gamed it several times (so have we) and when they are not in their "self-deception mode" they lose everytime, and they lose BIG!

They may maul a carrier task group or two, but once the advantage of surprise is gone, they lose everything that floats, flies, or crawls along the ground. While their manpower losses are replaceable, their material losses are not.

This is without a single US land warfare element getting involved nor a single nuclear weapon being deployed.

I think you are absolutely prejudging this event because I believe there are many great chinese that will defend or fight for their country no matter what the odd is against them. I will rather die then surrender to a foreign occupation. Yes, I'm a patriotic chinese guy who believe that every chinese people are born with the obligation to defend their country. Perhaps, I'm as ignorant as the most racists group. I believe as a chinese, I have the duty to fulfill is to protect my country from foreign occupation. Yes, I'm living and an American citizen.

lexico · 24 Jan 2005

thomas said:
Interesting Taiwanese editorial calling Japan's position of submissiveness in relation to China humiliating. A voice that should be heard.

Self-possessed Japan needed

=> http://www.etaiwannews.com/Editorial/2002/09/25/1032916175.htm

Do you know what amazes me?
We put those people on top, put them in charge, invest them with the power to command with responsibility.

And how do they act?
Like brain dead monkeys.
Now why don't we just find some healthy monkeys and put them in their stead.
Let all the executives from Harvard or Georgetown or Tokyo or Beijing or Qinghua or Seoul National or Taipei do their daily chores.

We would have none of this nonsense.
This is beginning to make me sick.
Why not go just go see a bull fight.
At least the bull's s-h-i-t will be genuine, and the bloody gore harmless.

I think the topmostpost was meant well, but eventually failed to bring out the best in anyone.
Sad, sad, sad....
But please stop imitating the brainless monkeys is what I suggest. Torro!

Shooter452 · 26 Jan 2005

PatrioticChineseguy said:
"This is without a single US land warfare element getting involved nor a single nuclear weapon being deployed."

I think you are absolutely prejudging this event because I believe there are many great chinese that will defend or fight for their country no matter what the odd is against them. I will rather die then surrender to a foreign occupation. Yes, I'm a patriotic chinese guy who believe that every chinese people are born with the obligation to defend their country. Perhaps, I'm as ignorant as the most racists group. I believe as a chinese, I have the duty to fulfill is to protect my country from foreign occupation. Yes, I'm living and an American citizen.

Prejudging? I don't think so, but please try reading what I said, again.

The tactical assumption is that the PLA is attempting to invade (as they have threatened to do) Taiwan. Under this assumption, there is no US invasion of PRC, PatriotChineseguy. The Chinese fight purely a naval battle in the Formosa Strait, with no air cover, and everything they have goes "glub" half way across.

PLA shore installations on the mainland may take a beating, and the prepositioned forces stuck on the shore lacking the amphib lift to continue the invasion get whacked by air power. But there is not a single US soldier/Marine on PRC soil, so you can be as patriotic as you wish. There is no one for you to fight. Sorry.

And I am not guessing about anything. I absolutely know of what I speak. There is absolutely no speculation or assumption about US Naval power IMHO. Due to recent performance, we've confirmed that there are only two navy's out on the deep blue sea: the US Navy and everyone else.

Even the Royal Navy is running with lesser-quality equipment and much less of it. And they are the only close competiters left. The PRC has nothing that comes even close. Yet. With all of the military technology they have stolen from the USA in recent years, they may comre close sooner than we think.

But that is then. This is now.

PS: the discussion is about China invading Japan, but I have never participated in the theory of the PRC crossing either the Yellow Sea or the East China Sea to carry out that threat. There have been abundant war games over the crossing of the Straits of Formosa.

One would think that any crossing from China to Japan would be much, much more difficult and dangerous. Even an amphibious effort launched from Korea (the traditional jump-off point) would be a greater effort, therefore the Chinese Navy would have longer to go and even easier to destroy.

Hiroshi66 · 26 Jan 2005

Esentially - why would China invade Japan? I see obviously why they would invade the Republic or the North Korean dictatorship - but what reason do they have for South Korea and Japan? Would the international community stand by after seeing the PLA step one foot south of the 38th parallel into South Korea - especially if they can reach Seoul in a day or less!? Same with Japan.

Shooter452 · 27 Jan 2005

Hiroshi66 said:
Esentially - why would China invade Japan? I see obviously why they would invade the Republic or the North Korean dictatorship - but what reason do they have for South Korea and Japan? Would the international community stand by after seeing the PLA step one foot south of the 38th parallel into South Korea - especially if they can reach Seoul in a day or less!? Same with Japan.

Hiroshi it is my position that they would not. Japan is effectively out of their reach because they have not the ability to reach it with sizable land forces at this time. But you ask why would they bother? Sorry. That is a matter beyond my ability to speculate.

I think that the PRC might threaten, "rattle sabers" so to speak, but not actually invade anyone. The Beijing gov't wants badly to extend its influence in the region (what gov't doesn't?) but not to the extent of going to war, and certainly not a war it cannot win. Formidable as the PLA is, logistical constraints really limit its power to within their own borders. When they invaded Vietnam in the 1970's, the PLA was unable to drive much more than ninety miles from the border before its logistical support began to break down.

It is also my contention that Beijing has no interest in a unification of Korea under either the Seoul or the Pyongyang regiems. The Korean War was not started by Mao (Beijing) but by Stalin. Chinese involvement was the result of US and UN ignoring Mao's warnings about approaching/threatening key Chinese industrial areas in Manchuria and US foolishness in regards to Chinese military ability.

Once they became players, the Chinese were as committed to a Marxist victory as North Korea, but they had no desire to actually get involved in the first place. Mao had only just captured all of China when the Korean War began. He had much more important work for the PLA to do at that time.

But getting back to the real question, could the PLA threaten Japan with invasion (or Taiwan)? Not as long as there is a US Seventh Fleet.

IMHO.

Ira furor brevis est

Hiroshi66 · 27 Jan 2005

So desu. The PLA wouldn't be able to take Japan, IMO. Never underestimate the SDF.. never. Same with Taiwan's armed forces.

Shooter452 · 27 Jan 2005

Hiroshi66 said:
So desu. The PLA wouldn't be able to take Japan, IMO. Never underestimate the SDF.. never. Same with Taiwan's armed forces.

And there we are totally agreed. But regardless of how professional and trained are the armed forces in Japan and Taiwan (and also Korea), how much easier will their victories be if only a handfull of waterlogged PLA stragglers make landfall because the US Seventh Fleet did their job before the Chinese reached shore. The Seventh Fleet is the modern equivilent of the tai-fun that sank the Mongol invasion fleet in the 13th Century--except that no one need wait for the weather to change.

Regardless of how the people in Japan feel about the presence of US forces on Japanese soil, the one thing no one hears from responsible leaders a demand to remove the US Navy from Japanese waters. That would be foolish of them and the Japanese are not usually a foolish people.

The Seventh Fleet is an rare example of US military might used for a totally defensive purpose. Although it certainly poses an offensive threat to opposing powers, the Fleet's stated purpose has always been to protect Taiwan, Korea, and Japan.

BTW, one of the greatest threats to US Naval power from the PLA is the abundance of land-based anti-ship missiles, like the infamous Silkworm missile system. The Chinese now have much more sophisticated weapons than that, so I do not claim that they would be a pushover, just that the US Navy can beat them in any sea war...soundly.

Bella gerant alii

Hiroshi66 · 27 Jan 2005

The fact of the matter is that a Chinese invasion of the Republic and/or a North Korean invasion of the south is much more realistic than a PLA invasion of Japan.

Shooter452 · 27 Jan 2005

Hiroshi66 said:
The fact of the matter is that a Chinese invasion of the Republic and/or a North Korean invasion of the south is much more realistic than a PLA invasion of Japan.

In that it is possible...yes...barely, but yes.

Hiroshi66 · 27 Jan 2005

Okay.

Then again, the chances of those happening are scarce too.

Shooter452 · 29 Jan 2005

Errata

In a recent post, I made the statement that "...Even the Royal Navy is running with lesser-quality equipment and much less of it. And they are the only close competiters left..."

I would like to correct that statement, with apologies to those I may have offended. I overlooked the French Navy. While still small compared to the US Navy, the French in fact have quite a powerful fleet. They employ (at my last count) two very capable full-sized aircraft carriers that are easily the size and capability of USS Midway-class attack carriers. These are the types of surface vessels that allow a major nation to project power world wide (the Royal Navy of the UK has none). Their officers and men of these and other ships have the highest level of training competance of any naval force in Europe and the equal of any navy afloat.

The critical element of naval aviation is also superb. While French aviators may lack the sophisticated training of US or UK aviators, they are nevertheless exceptional airplane drivers, and they fly one of the classic Navy aircraft of the 20th Century--the F-8 Crusader. Prematurely retired by the US Navy, the French keep their F-8's in the air because they are the best dogfighters in the sky, with the possible exception of the multi-zillion dollar F-14 Tomcat. Ask the pilots of North Viet Nam: the F-8 had the highest air-to-air victory per sortie ratio of any US aircraft. It was nicknamed "the MiG Master" because it was poison to NVN aircraft. Even the vaunted MiG-21 had a hard time with the F-8.

And the French drivers know how to wring every ounce of performance from their Crusaders, too. In rare NATO exercises where the US and French drivers get to mix it up, the Naval Aviators of the US Atlantic Fleet do not fair as well with French opponants as they would like, and are reluctant to go back for seconds after getting some of their tail surfaces burned off by these guys.

So, with abject regret I again offer my apology to those out there or the French persuasion. You guys have the second best Navy in the world, and should be damned proud of them. Under funded as they are, you get your pound price when it comes to the bang-for-the-buck stuff!

Fair winds and following seas!

Japan submissive towards China?

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