Japan, please stop whale hunting!

bossel · 17 Feb 2005

lexico said:
Although the National Geographics News article is aimed at the general public, its use of such loose a statement as 'CJD is inherited through the transmission of genetic material' (paraphrase) is ample cause to doubt its scientific seriousness.

Well, I doubt the scientific seriousness of NG in general. But this finding has been reported in a variety of media (eg. New Scientist, I was just too lazy to look up more scientific sources), hence there is a certain validity to the reasoning.

I just happen to doubt the validity of the gentic link assumed as a valid support of his theory.

It is a valid support, although the validity may be not too high & as with all new research has to be verified by other scientists. It's quite possible that this genetic variation developed in response to some prion disease being present in other meat sources than humans.

Nevertheless there is not much doubt that cannibalism among human beings occurred all over the world once in a while. Whether that was occasional or habitual cannibalism probably depended on the society &/or environment.

lexico · 18 Feb 2005

bossel said:
It's quite possible that this genetic variation developed in response to some prion disease being present in other meat sources than humans..

Here you only suggested that the normally folding prion genes as the logical outcome of consuming CJD pathogen contaminated animal meat. In consideration of the reports on trans-species transmission of CJD, your statement can be put as either certain or highly probable. Whichever the case, you have just underminded Tim White's reasoning that the presence of such genes is support for his theory of widespread cannibalistic practices in humas. To play devil's advocate, I can say "well, those genes developed out of consuming contaminated animal meat, not from eating human flesh/brain mush."

bossel said:
Nevertheless there is not much doubt that cannibalism among human beings occurred all over the world once in a while. Whether that was occasional or habitual cannibalism probably depended on the society &/or environment.

Has the subject been dealt with at JFORUM? Or is it established fact, or at least considered such by mainstream anthropologists?

bossel · 19 Feb 2005

lexico said:
To play devil's advocate, I can say "well, those genes developed out of consuming contaminated animal meat, not from eating human flesh/brain mush."

You can very well say so. This is a quite open (& new) question, which will need quite some time to be solved conclusively (if that ever happens).

Has the subject been dealt with at JFORUM? Or is it established fact, or at least considered such by mainstream anthropologists?

I don't think, there is a mainstream in regard to that question. There is the PC faction, which wants cannibalism to be seen as a total exception, there is the opposing faction which sees cannibalism as a widespread phenomenon all over the world in early tribal societies (albeit not everywhere at all times), & there are a lot of other anthropologists in between.

I lean in the direction of the view of it being a worldwide phenomenon. Since the paleontological record of humans is still scarce, the jury is still out, but I see the discoveries of human bones with cutting marks (& sometimes opened to get the marrow out) as a clear indication that it was much wider spread than the PC faction likes.

earthangel · 21 Jun 2005

bossel said:
But your compassion does not go out to the common cauliflower? Shame on you! It's alive, too.

I don't see why it should be convincing anyone to try vegetarianism just because some celebs do.

My compassion goes out to all living things. But since I have to eat, eating low on the food chain means less suffering for others. When you eat a cow or a whale, that represents millions of deaths of insects or grass blades (since you consider vegetables sentient). Therefore if you eat grass directly you are killing far fewer.

From the Buddhist perspective (since there are so many posts in this thread on Buddhism), you can die and reincarnate as an animal (which includes insects and - incredibly - bacteria) but you cannot reincarnate as a vegetable.

Therefore, vegetables should not be treated with as much compassion as animals or humans.

Personally though, I'd rather be a breathairian and live on sunlight!

By the way, did you know that the Dalai Lama has requested all the Tibetan Buddhist monks to abstain eating meat for a year (hoping they will choose to go longer, no doubt). It is time all Buddhists stopped eating meat in my opinion. It is the Buddhist way as much as possible to not cause harm or suffering to others. I wish Japan, as a Buddhist nation, would take this into its lifestyle.

When I lived in Japan in 1979 studying Zen Buddhism in Zen monasteries, I noticed many of the Japanese civilians claimed to be Buddhist yet knew absolutely nothing about Buddhism. Some didn't even know Buddha was a man!

bossel · 22 Jun 2005

earthangel said:
But since I have to eat, eating low on the food chain means less suffering for others.

Good point, though nothing that would convince me of not eating meat anymore. Cows & fowl are for the largest part fed on grain, I think, which is harvested from dead/dying plants. No problem there. Pigs are a bit different, since they are to a degree fed with tubers & stuff, but nothing that would worry me to much, either.

(since you consider vegetables sentient).

Where did I say so?
Scientific research is still ongoing, but there are probably plants with some kind of a nervous system. AFAIK no vegetables yet, though.

From the Buddhist perspective

Well, religion. I don't go for that, anyway.

(which includes insects and - incredibly - bacteria)
[...]
It is time all Buddhists stopped eating meat in my opinion. It is the Buddhist way as much as possible to not cause harm or suffering to others.

Reincarnated as bacteria? Then in order to cause no harm to others, you'd have to kill yourself. Your body is constantly killing bacteria, how do you want to stop this? If you eat vegetables, you kill a lot of bacteria, too.

I wish Japan, as a Buddhist nation, would take this into its lifestyle.

Is Japan a Buddhist nation? What about Shinto?
Why should all those non-Buddhists in Japan follow Buddhist rules?

Tsuyoiko · 23 Jun 2005

earthangel said:
From the Buddhist perspective (since there are so many posts in this thread on Buddhism), you can die and reincarnate as an animal (which includes insects and - incredibly - bacteria) but you cannot reincarnate as a vegetable.

Bacteria are not animals. I think this misconception comes about because the word 'bug' is used to refer both to insects and to bacteria. Bacteria are the most simple (and by far the most abundant) lifeforms. Plants, fungi and animals are a twig on the tree of life in comparison. This essay Top Cash Earning Games in India 2021 | Best Online Games to earn real money explains it well.

mad pierrot · 23 Jun 2005

Dr. Gould is full of it!

Damn evolutionary punctualists....

Tsuyoiko · 23 Jun 2005

mad pierrot said:
Dr. Gould is full of it!

Damn evolutionary punctualists....

Hey, don't diss Dr Gould!

mad pierrot · 23 Jun 2005

Hey, don't diss Dr Gould!

Ok, I just had to stick up for his ach-nemesis, Richard Dawkins!

As much as I might have had complaints about Dr Gould, I mourn his passing. He was a great man.

:sorry:

Tsuyoiko · 24 Jun 2005

mad pierrot said:
Ok, I just had to stick up for his ach-nemesis, Richard Dawkins!

As much as I might have had complaints about Dr Gould, I mourn his passing. He was a great man.

:sorry:

It looks like we are enemies then! Grr, Richard Dawkins :box:

SharkLover · 17 Jul 2005

my petition: The world's platform for change

10almonds · 24 Jul 2005

Whales were an important protein replenishment sources for the Japanese.
A big reason that the American army had come to Japan was to get the material of lady's corsets.

If women dressed in like a "Gone with the wind" fashion now, and plastic was not invented, No one had complained about that.

lexico · 24 Jul 2005

Whales for the time without crude oil

Interesting point about the corset material from the whales; as crude oil will dry up sooner or later, the day when humans once again turn to the those whales for alternative plasticoid material + lamp oil might not be too far off... just a thought, but we might need to learn to farm a greater number of whales for our material needs.

10almonds · 24 Jul 2005

yeah,a funny story,'cause it's true.

"There is a woman behind the history." (*^ ^*

Duo · 24 Jul 2005

I wonder, would people make such a big fuss if it was sharks that were being under threat instead of whales or dolphins ?

Do we have some kind of preference for cute lookin gentle animals ?

Why is it always wrong to kill a bunny or wahtever, but snakes and other uglier creatures are to be wacked away ?

I guess our preference for looks and impressions goes fare beyond than just when we interecat with our own specie.

This is not to say that I advocate whale hunting, i am against it of course.

Nebiki · 24 Jul 2005

Duo said:
I wonder, would people make such a big fuss if it was sharks that were being under threat instead of whales or dolphins ?

Do we have some kind of preference for cute lookin gentle animals ?

Why is it always wrong to kill a bunny or wahtever, but snakes and other uglier creatures are to be wacked away ?

I guess our preference for looks and impressions goes fare beyond than just when we interecat with our own specie.

This is not to say that I advocate whale hunting, i am against it of course.

There's actually a campaign to stop the hunting of sharks, as they too are hunted for various reasons.

10almonds · 24 Jul 2005

I can not understand the sense of people who restricts like religion, and compels gastronomic culture.

OK - Cows
NO - Cats
NO - Dogs
OK - Cows that cannot inspect BSE
NO - Whales
NO - Dolphins
and
"No" campaign now! - sharks

Is it the religion????
It is the same sense as the crusade,isn't It?

Duo · 24 Jul 2005

Nebiki said:
There's actually a campaign to stop the hunting of sharks, as they too are hunted for various reasons.

Granted, but do you don't even remotely hear about is much as you hear about whale hunting

lexico · 24 Jul 2005

And what about the mass murder of the kelp for our jam and jelly and tooth paste ?

10almonds · 24 Jul 2005

Japanese doesn't eat cats ,dogs,and dolphins.
but i would like to add several lines.

OK - Rabbit
OK - Lamb
OK - Calf
NO - Nightingale
OK - Chicken

In Japanese senses, it's cruel and barbarous to eat baby animals like calf and lamb.
However, Japanese accepted esteeming such a culture.
(Of course, we do not eat nightingale either. )

SharkLover · 26 Jul 2005

I thought they were Shintoaists(sp?) the worship of the gods of NATURE

oooh I hope they make a shirt out of the pic!! ^_^

10almonds · 26 Jul 2005

It's "Anti-whale fishing" is the worship of whale as a god now,isn't it?
Please do not force that religion on us.
the feeding chain broke because human races who caught whales were gone...
you know, the whale fishing have been prohibited .
and the amounts of sardines decrease sharply.
the Japanese tables are destroyed by the new religion assumed to be "The whale fishing is a corruption to the god".

The whale fishing too much is very bad.
It's also bad that the number of whales increases too much.
i agree with making the limitation of the amount of capture.
i agree that "anti-dolphin fishing "too.
but,
I do not want to rob of their(Fishermans etc.) job.

lexico · 26 Jul 2005

Excellent info, Komachi !!
It looks like humans can enjoy life after the crude oil; whale bones and tendon instead of plastic that never dies to rot like the vampires can never rest ...
btw, can you get gasoline, aspirine, and tar from whales ?
Do you know if people have found a way to domesticate the whale ?
Whale farming might solve many problems, just like dog farming can make dog meat consumption a civilized eating practice. No sarcasm by all means.

lexico · 26 Jul 2005

Some pros and cons of consuming whale based foods regarding accumulative pollutants

The general rule of thumb about accumulative contaminants in the food chain states that the higher up the pyramid, the higher the concentration of

DDT, Dioxins
Lead, quick silver, cadmium, stroncium, etc.

because they accumulate in the fat or other body sturture. For those whalew who live on small kurile shrimp, there would be an advantage; but if the whale has a looooong life expectancy, then the accumulation will take effect. That is one of the reasons why toxic waste should NEVER be dumped into the river and the oceans.... one day, without your knowing, perhaps your grandchild will be enjoying a piece of sushi contaminated with the Nuclear waste your country had dumped into the ocean... via a 3rd world country.

bossel · 26 Jul 2005

komachi said:
the feeding chain broke because human races who caught whales were gone...

Except for the last few thousand years human beings weren't part (or on top) of the marine food chain in the 1st place.

you know, the whale fishing have been prohibited .
and the amounts of sardines decrease sharply.

It's kind of strange. Are you saying that in the millions of years humans did not hunt whales anyway, Sardines were close to extinction?

It's also bad that the number of whales increases too much.

Probably, but do you have any numbers that would support the assumption that whale numbers actually did (or do) increase too much?

Japan, please stop whale hunting!

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