Legal Japan passes law to promote understanding of the LGBT community

chrys_oniisan said:

I suppose that if you want to rob somebody, you don't have to kick him/her until death. To do that, it means you really hate that person.

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Guessing at motives is dangerous. To start, people willing to rob others tend to have all sorts of anti-social tendencies such as mental illness, absurdly low IQ, childhood trauma etc. and its no surprise that many have a lot of pent up rage and general hate of pretty much anyone.

Next, its also no surprise some would get outrageously angry when the victim doesn't cooperate, even if its impossible for them to cooperate...such as not having enough cash in the wallet to satisfy them. Or in this case, they may have thought he had a drug stash and he either refused to tell them where it was, or he didn't have one at all and that enraged them.

Even a person's personality could set such people off, such as a stereotypically "gay" personality. And some people who aren't even gay can have such a personality, or some other personality, which can get the violence started. And once it starts, it can escalate to torture and murder. It may not be the norm, but it happens with such messed up people.

chrys_oniisan said:

Btw, police brutality is a fact so it definitely is Caucasian ppl who kick / kill Afro ppl.

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Are you trying to say there are no Asian, Hispanic, or Black cops in the U.S.???

chrys_oniisan said:

According to wikipedia, 63% of the population is exclusively straight.
According to constantreader, 58% of the population is transgender(ed).

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Wiki has a lot of pages. Could you link the page or pages you got this information?

This is tragic....undeniably tragic....no matter what the motive was.

However, what the woman doing most of the talking in this cliip absolutely fails to understand is that her own rhetoric is either creating the problem or enhancing it.

She makes a LOT of bold assumptions, and in doing so, is literally crafting a hate narrative to be used against like-minded people. Its really sad to see people like her be on one side that is helping to keep the downward spiral going. Of course, I am using the term "sad" loosely here....because I just can't truly care any more. These are just my observations, not my feelings.

I post this for many reasons, but a big one is the assumption of motive. its a dangerous thing to do.

Master of Time said:

It is interesting that I took your accusation of being privileged as being related to being White pretty much only. But I chalk that up to the overwhelming bulk of that accusation in my life being tied to being White.

Me trying to set you onto the path of the stories of a multitude of others is neither me bragging nor complaining. I am just trying to find a way to get you to understand logically that what you and mdchachi have emotionally got yourselves invested in is not true. Obviously, logic is not going to work....but its all I have got to offer...so.....we will be getting nowhere.

As for calling me "cisgender" I recommend against calling normal people such a word if you want to "win". But yeah, you will do what you want in any case.

The history of ‘cisgender’ — now that Elon Musk has deemed it a ‘slur’ on Twitter - National | Globalnews.ca

'Cisgender' was first coined in 1994 by a grad student looking for a way to refer to people who aren't transgender without implying that one identity is 'normal' and one isn't.

globalnews.ca

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There's no such things as normal ppl or normal things !

What does normal mean?

- Not hurting anyone or, not destroying anything?
Guess what, many ppl are not normal then, since most of them are meat eaters.
What does normal mean?
- Not having any ailments? To be in a good condition?
Then, once again, many ppl are not normal since they're ill.
What does normal mean?
- Acting like everybody else? Faking a personality to be accepted as an individual in a given society? Pretending to be someone else in order to stay safe?

Master of Time said:

Guessing at motives is dangerous. To start, people willing to rob others tend to have all sorts of anti-social tendencies such as mental illness, absurdly low IQ, childhood trauma etc. and its no surprise that many have a lot of pent up rage and general hate of pretty much anyone.

Next, its also no surprise some would get outrageously angry when the victim doesn't cooperate, even if its impossible for them to cooperate...such as not having enough cash in the wallet to satisfy them. Or in this case, they may have thought he had a drug stash and he either refused to tell them where it was, or he didn't have one at all and that enraged them.

Even a person's personality could set such people off, such as a stereotypically "gay" personality. And some people who aren't even gay can have such a personality, or some other personality, which can get the violence started. And once it starts, it can escalate to torture and murder. It may not be the norm, but it happens with such messed up people.




Are you trying to say there are no Asian, Hispanic, or Black cops in the U.S.???



Wiki has a lot of pages. Could you link the page or pages you got this information?

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Thanks for your message.

Actually, I typed "LGBT ppl in the world" and I stumbled upon the wiki. But this figure is for Germany in 2015. I thought it was a worldwide figure...

And for the other figure, I got it here :

Of course, everybody can be a cop, but, as far as France goes,
when the police checks the identity of civilians, 80% were young Blacks or Arabs. Only 16% were for the rest of the population.
In other words, the police check Black and Arab persons way more. Does that mean police officers believe Black and Arab ppl are suspects / criminals... I think so yeah.

Well I guess there is at least one point of trans rights I have to admit is not solved in Japan.....or is it now? This is a really weird case, and what it means for the future is really vague.

chrys_oniisan said:

What does normal mean?

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Its a bit nebulous as a general concept, so dragging in race and culture is not fair to this. But it becomes a lot clearer depending on specific aspects of people and society upon which it is fair to apply. Normal human males are sexually interested in human females....this is even fairly standard across the animal kingdom. (Females in general are harder to pin down). There is a lot I think can be admitted as normal for humans that is not normal among most other animals.....for example....same sex attraction and sexual activity. But the trouble comes when that attraction is exclusive. THAT isn't normal. But its too fine a line for most people to understand, so most people will simply declare all same sex attraction and activity as not normal....which I do not think is correct. Bisexual is normal. Exclusively homosexual isn't. Neither is asexual.

Trans is much more obvious though. Someone who feels their mental gender does not match their biological gender is not normal.....in the senses of both the fact they are a tiny minority AND they are caused mental anguish by their condition (anguish being a test of having a mental condition in psychology).

When a person's lack of normalcy causes others anguish, then we have a societal problem. The case I linked above is a good example.

chrys_oniisan said:

According to constantreader, 58% of the population is transgender(ed).

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There is something seriously wrong with that. I translated the whole paragraph below. It does not add up.

In the United States, (approximately 0.,) according to 2016 data, 58% of the adult population identifies as transgender. Breaking down the transgender population by state, the District of Columbia has the highest percentage at 2.77%. All states in the United States have transgender adults representing less than 1% of the adult population.

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"Transgender" encapsulates all the persons who don't feel their native sex matches their gender.
So it includes

• agendered persons,
• FtMs,
• MtFs,
• FtXs,
• MtXs,
• intersexed persons,
• polygendered persons,
• genderfluid persons,
• genderfu*kers,
• bigendered persons
• non binary persons & so on...

Consequently, it's not so astonishing the figure is nearly 60%.

Actually, by transgender, it's implied not-cisgendered persons.
And cisgendered persons refer to all the persons who feel comfortable (enough) with their native sex
(which implies their gender is derived from their native sex;
commonly male = man or female = woman).

I'm not a specialist is psychology (though I have a degree in philosophy), yet, if I'm correct "normalcy" means "not hurting anyone" (as far as psychology is concerned). And I agree with that. Usually, for instance, in court, perverse persons are the ones who have hurt lots and lots of ppl and actually think it's OK, or justified. I did something "terrible" but I had a good reason since I suffered a lot... But erveybody suffers, I think. It's not enough as a reason...

Many non human animals are homosexuals as well. I think the normalcy you want to elaborate matches someone who's eager to have children (one day). But that desire is not shared by all human beings... Btw, sex life sometimes excludes reproductive aims. May I remind you that our planet is dying, ressources are extremely limited, and, btw, we're already overpopulating this earth & wasting scarce ressources (like water, for instance). Sooner or later, unfortunately, ppl will die because they lack ressources (food, water & so on). In this context, it's not reasonable to have children and NO ONE adresses this important issue. Those ppl are called "child free" and as we don't live in a very open-minded society, those ppl are not well accepted either. Tbh, I think they're right. Is it reasonable to have children when we know they'll die from malnutrition, lack of water, lack of space, lack of a job (poverty), or from a heatstroke, or from a weather hazard, & so on... It's neither clever or thoughful, I guess... 300.000 persons die each year because of climate change solely, and that amazing figure is about to climb up to half a million by 2030. So it's already happening right now.
article in English here : Climate Change Kills 300.000 People Every Year – Hon Awudu Mbaya – Cameroon Postline

Alfred Kinsey was the 1st to think all human beings were bisexuals, neither strictly straight, nor strictly homosexuals.
according to Kinsey, a quarter to a half of human population is bisexual...

IDK, perhaps gender (as a concept) shouldn't even exist at all.
Maybe many ppl would feel OK if that concept didn't exist...

Trans ppl feel anguish, as you said because we live in a society where being trans isn't well accepted.
When you're a transgendered person, you risk your life.
Whether is it your professional one, your social one or your own body...
Your own existence is suddenly denied & threatened.
So that anguish you mentionned earlier derives from that, not from being trans in itself.
The same goes, for instance, for Afro ppl, they have problems because racism is still active, not because they're Afro. That's my opinion.

Just recently a Danish poll & study was released : It's frightening, trans ppl risk their lives 3.5 times more compared to cisgendered population.
That means 1/3rd of the trans population tried to commit suicide.
This study was elaborated from 1980 until 2021.
The study states that when you're trans, you have much more chance to suffer from anxiety, depression and loneliness
(because you have a lot to cope with).
I read this article in French a few days ago, but you can find the study in English as well :

I'm generally sympathetic to your views. However, as a cis 'breeder' with children, I'll make one objection. Whereas it's entirely reasonable not to want to have children, it's also reasonable to want to have them, which is a strong biological urge for many people. Yes, the world is overpopulated, and we need to get the population down (though this is now happening in many developed countries), but some people need to have children to keep humanity going. Yes, you can argue that the extinction of humanity may be for the best from an earth-based view, but I'd like to think that we do merit our existence as a species.

The population problem will take care of itself (by fair means or foul). A far greater priority is to change our lives so that we are protecting what is left of our ecosystem and greatly reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. Unfortunately, I think we're f***ed. There's very little political leadership forcing emissions to be cut and I see almost no changes in the lifestyles of nearly all my generally well-educated and liberal friends, who still have high meat and dairy intake and jump on a plane for a foreign holiday at the slightest pretext - changing your diet and flying less are the two most significant (and also easy) things anyone can do to reduce their environmental impact, yet people don't seem to be motivated enough to jump over this low hurdle.

Anyway, we're getting a long way from the subject of the thread, so I'll shut up.

"normal is whatever I am, or think it to be"

I imagine a lot of people think this way, because it's difficult to step outside of your own frame of reference and truly empathize with someone who has a completely different lived experience from your own. We always imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes, rather than truly inhabiting them and trying to understand them. We all think we've got a monopoly on what's objective reality, but most of it is locked within the blinders we wear from our own physiologies, upbringings, memories, etc.

I agree, it's all relative

chrys_oniisan said:

Thanks for your message.

Actually, I typed "LGBT ppl in the world" and I stumbled upon the wiki. But this figure is for Germany in 2015. I thought it was a worldwide figure...

Statistiques démographiques sur l'orientation sexuelle — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

Demographics of sexual orientation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And for the other figure, I got it here :

Quel pourcentage de la Population est transgenre 2021 | Constant Reader

theconstantreader.com

Of course, everybody can be a cop, but, as far as France goes,
when the police checks the identity of civilians, 80% were young Blacks or Arabs. Only 16% were for the rest of the population.

Violences policières : ce que disent les chiffres

Les données recensées par l'IGPN (Inspection générale de la police nationale) traduisent une augmentation des violences policières en 2019.

www.francetvinfo.fr

In other words, the police check Black and Arab persons way more. Does that mean police officers believe Black and Arab ppl are suspects / criminals... I think so yeah.

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I think there might be a typo on the constantreader, it's probably 0.58%

According to this Gallup poll, the LGBT population (of the US) is steady at 7.2%, the % of trans people is contained within that, so it doesn't make sense for it to be significantly higher than the superset, let alone a majority of the population. This article from last year counts about 1.6 million transgender individuals in the states, which would be less than half a percent... The different labels you provided would each be smaller portions of the population

All that's just to say that we're talking about a very small minority of people in our society, which I believe is why it's been exceedingly easy for demagogues to turn them into a punching bag for their nonsense culture wars. It's definitely the treatment of LGBTQ+ folks that cause the mental health issues that put them at greater risk of harm, and not the condition itself, as evidenced here:

I think there's more to say about the merit of having children or abstaining from adding to the gene pool, but that's better left to another thread perhaps.

nice gaijin said:

"normal is whatever I am, or think it to be"

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I have never considered myself normal. I have felt like the outsider in pretty much every group since I was a child. Its part of the reason why transitioning to life in Japan was so easy for me. I could go anywhere and not feel any different, or long for the place I am the insider.

I also do not dream up what should be normal and then act as if it is. I mean, I most certainly do have ideas on what should be normal, but I present it as such...my idea...my hope....not a current fact.

I also don't consider "normal" to be some grand prefered state, nor do I consider abnormal to be a bad thing. I am abnormal and I think its good. There is a great lot about people that is normal that if you confused me for sharing that normal, I would be personally insulted.

I don't think LGBTQ+ is normal. But I also don't think being such a brand of abnormal is automatically a problem. That said, I think that for humanity being an intolerant jerk is very normal. So is being ignorant, especially about the evil of your own groups, something I have come across on this forum recently. Better to not be normal sometimes....loads better.

Master of Time said:

I have never considered myself normal. I have felt like the outsider in pretty much every group since I was a child. Its part of the reason why transitioning to life in Japan was so easy for me. I could go anywhere and not feel any different, or long for the place I am the insider.

I also do not dream up what should be normal and then act as if it is. I mean, I most certainly do have ideas on what should be normal, but I present it as such...my idea...my hope....not a current fact.

I also don't consider "normal" to be some grand prefered state, nor do I consider abnormal to be a bad thing. I am abnormal and I think its good. There is a great lot about people that is normal that if you confused me for sharing that normal, I would be personally insulted.

I don't think LGBTQ+ is normal. But I also don't think being such a brand of abnormal is automatically a problem. That said, I think that for humanity being an intolerant jerk is very normal. So is being ignorant, especially about the evil of your own groups, something I have come across on this forum recently. Better to not be normal sometimes....loads better.

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In your sentences, "normal" is an synonym for "ordinary" or "commonplace", I guess.

chrys_oniisan said:

In your sentences, "normal" is an synonym for "ordinary" or "commonplace", I guess.

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Sometimes, but also psychologically normal. Trans is a mental illness....(personally I maintain that gay and lesbian is too).....it just isn't a dangerous one for the public even if some people are uncomfortable with it. Its on the level of Tourette's syndrome. There is no cure, but, oh well. Everyone needs to get used to it.....but by that I don't mean share in any delusion that its normal....including enforced pronoun use. Its not normal. Anyone's delusions are their own. People who want to be delusional can be....over there....away from me.

But I may or may not be able to handle a person's expression of their trans, gay, lesbian, queen or other status....but if I can't...and I walk away.....for Pete's sake don't follow and don't scream at my back. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone. Poke at me, and you will have a war.

Calling someone sick is already an offense, though.

Perhaps it is not normal to only have 2 identities visible & well known (male / female, man / woman) when actually intersexuality / intersex exists as well and they are indeed born this way. That means many genders and sexes exist, this binary systel is an illusion, it's all fabricated by our societies.

Btw, trans ppl don't choose their sex or gender either, they try to feel comfortable in their body and anyone should be free to do whatever he / she wants with his / her body, right?

Most of the times, we can't even tell a person is trans since they blend in perfectly.

The issue is a person might be ambiguous when it's the beginning of his / her transition. That's a very dangerous period of time...

If, to be happy, someone has to undergo a sex change, then it's OK.
There's no price on being happy & being comfortable in one's body !

I'd say that being trans and not doing anything about it is indeed a mental illness or an issue but if someone is a trans person & undergo a transition then it's logical and it makes sense...

The other issue is that lots of medias broadcast only the more extreme transitions.
But it's a fact, they don't undergo a transition from Arnold Schwarznegger to be Marylin Monroe or the other way around !!

I guess all the medias like to broadcast this false image of trans ppl because many ppl refuse to see trans ppl as anybody, as a person, to begin with : As your neighbour, your baker, your teacher and so on... When transition is commonplace or ordinary (and it is, btw / tbh), it's suddenly uninteresting or boring, it seems.

Master of Time said:

I have never considered myself normal. I have felt like the outsider in pretty much every group since I was a child.

I also don't consider "normal" to be some grand prefered state, nor do I consider abnormal to be a bad thing. I am abnormal and I think its good. There is a great lot about people that is normal that if you confused me for sharing that normal, I would be personally insulted.

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I am going to say this as gently as possible, from one human being to another. (And to be clear -- I am writing this because I empathize with what you describe above, and it inspired me to say something.)

I am also going to avoid referencing specific LGBTQ issues -- in part because I do not feel as qualified as others to speak authoritatively on them, and in part because I feel like this is a more fundamental issue than that.

But as someone who is emotionally mature and sensitive enough to understand that you, yourself are "abnormal" (for what it's worth, I feel the same way about myself, and to go a step further would say that almost all of us humans are "abnormal" in our own way and those that go out of their way to label themselves "normal" are deluding themselves, in large part because society puts pressure on individuals to conform to some concept of "normality"), I feel like it wouldn't be such a great leap for you to empathize with other people who are not "normal", and thus not to want to see them emotionally/physically hurt, ostracized, etc.

I can't claim to fully understand what certain minority groups are going through, because I am not one of them. But I do know what it feels like -- and from what you've written, I suspect you do too -- to be bullied, or made to feel "lesser than" by the type of person who makes themselves feel better punching down at those who are "different" or "abnormal" or "outsiders".

And because of that, even when I don't understand something, I find it is generally a fairly natural and easy decision to side with the weak, the ostracized, the unfairly maligned. And even if my ability to help is limited -- especially these days, but that's neither here nor there -- I try, at the very least, not to do or say things to further their pain and suffering.

I'm going to leave with a quote from my favorite author, because I feel it's appropriate here:

"If there is a hard, high wall and an egg that breaks against it, no matter how right the wall or how wrong the egg, I will stand on the side of the egg. Why? Because each of us is an egg, a unique soul enclosed in a fragile egg. Each of us is confronting a high wall. The high wall is the system which forces us to do the things we would not ordinarily see fit to do as individuals . . . We are all human beings, individuals, fragile eggs. We have no hope against the wall: it's too high, too dark, too cold. To fight the wall, we must join our souls together for warmth, strength. We must not let the system control us -- create who we are. It is we who created the system." --Haruki Murakami, Feb. 15, 2009

bentenmusume said:

I feel like it wouldn't be such a great leap for you to empathize with other people who are not "normal", and thus not to want to see them emotionally/physically hurt, ostracized, etc.

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I have not got the slightest Idea what you are on about. I feel like you don't have a concept of the line between giving people empathy and bending over backwards to try and make them feel better about every little thing (which won't work, you only get spoiled monsters that way whose demands just become more and more excessive, and that is what we are seeing already).

I am by no means an intolerant authoritarian type, but at some point you have to say to people, "This is life. Everyone has problems and I can find far worse than yours. Buck up princess."

chrys_oniisan said:

Perhaps it is not normal to only have 2 identities visible & well known (male / female, man / woman) when actually intersexuality / intersex exists as well and they are indeed born this way. That means many genders and sexes exist, this binary systel is an illusion, it's all fabricated by our societies.

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You are blurring a lot of lines so you can have a soup of whatever you want. There are two normal biological genders and they are male and female. Androgynous and hermaphrodite and even others may exist but they aren't normal.....straight logic. If people assign a nuance to "not normal" that amounts to "freak" or " person who should be ostracized" well that person is a jerk and does not have my support. If a person is not dangerous that person should be tolerated. If it is possible to accept a person as a friend, that person should be accepted as a friend.

An example would be a guy I just saw yesterday. He is probably in his thirties. He was walking down the street in a short, high school girl's skirt with tall heels and long socks. Was he dangerous? Not by what I just said. So, leave him alone. Can I be his friend? No, I can't. He gave me major creeps and always will. My creeps are my problem, not his or anyone else's. But I won't endure creeps in my life to make him feel better. I have my own life to live.

What toilet should he use? Well its his biology that matters, I don't care what he identifies as internally. If he has a problem with that then he should be welcome to use the handicapped toilets because afaik he has a mental illness/ handicap (just as true trans people do, through no fault of their own).

What are his pronouns? I don't know and I don't care. But I can see he is a biological male so I call him a he. I keep saying this on this site, but I don't read minds. Is this not a basic fact of life? Barring some extreme circumstance, that person was surely born with a penis. That makes that person a he and he is going to be called a he by everybody until he does a convincing transition......cause we can't read minds and we see what we see.....and we all just plain have more important things to worry about and our own lives to lead.

Was he or trans people born that way? Nobody knows that either. Don't be so sure. If you ask me, we in the western world have a major problem and that is that children's and teenagers gender and sexual development is being ignored and expected to just form naturally in the most unnatural settings that ever existed in human history.....and its no surprise to me that sperm counts are dropping, birth rates are dropping, gender confusion and dysphoria are rising, asexuality is rising, and all the other identity and sexuality problems are occuring. Society never did listen to reason on sexual matters, but society had far less control in the past to do such deep damage. Even Victorian kids had more freedom to sneak around and experiment.

I said intersex is a reality (that means more than 2 sexes exist)
and those (intersexed) persons were born this way.
This is entirely natural.
But the fabrication of binary sexes isn't natural at all.

The issue with the concept of "convincing transition" is multiple :

• 1st of all, this means there only exists one definition of F or M gender (and one way to achieve them)
• then, it ignores gender is also cultural, as well as being a subjective notion.

You also mentioned a boy is born with a penis
but girls also have a penis, it's just called a clitoris
but if they were to be males, that part of their body would have been longer / larger and would have been called a penis.
And this is just a biological fact.

I suppose we should respect one's identity & we don't have the right to choose their identity, especially when this identity is based on visuals.
1st of all, our eyes aren't a perfect sensitive tool & then (the sight can mislead us);
if we judge one's identity based on our very own eyes, that means anyone can "pass" for a girl or a boy, if they change their outfit, hair style, wear makeup etc...
I suppose being a girl or a boy isn't about apperance, it's about how you feel & how you behave in society, right?
I truly believe in the self identity anyone can assert for himself / herself
so I believe that if a person uses the F pronouns then I'll follow along, and if the person prefers the M pronouns, I'll follow this instruction as well.
Who am I to decide someone else's identity?

As I mentionned earlier, many trans ppl live an ordinary life & aren't visibly trans ppl,
that's because ppl can transition and blend in;
that process isn't extreme or sensational in itself and it last a few weeks / years...

What do you think of my avatar?

chrys_oniisan said:

Calling someone sick is already an offense, though.

Perhaps it is not normal to only have 2 identities visible & well known (male / female, man / woman) when actually intersexuality / intersex exists as well and they are indeed born this way. That means many genders and sexes exist, this binary systel is an illusion, it's all fabricated by our societies.

Btw, trans ppl don't choose their sex or gender either, they try to feel comfortable in their body and anyone should be free to do whatever he / she wants with his / her body, right?

Most of the times, we can't even tell a person is trans since they blend in perfectly.

The issue is a person might be ambiguous when it's the beginning of his / her transition. That's a very dangerous period of time...

If, to be happy, someone has to undergo a sex change, then it's OK.
There's no price on being happy & being comfortable in one's body !

I'd say that being trans and not doing anything about it is indeed a mental illness or an issue but if someone is a trans person & undergo a transition then it's logical and it makes sense...

The other issue is that lots of medias broadcast only the more extreme transitions.
But it's a fact, they don't undergo a transition from Arnold Schwarznegger to be Marylin Monroe or the other way around !!

I guess all the medias like to broadcast this false image of trans ppl because many ppl refuse to see trans ppl as anybody, as a person, to begin with : As your neighbour, your baker, your teacher and so on... When transition is commonplace or ordinary (and it is, btw / tbh), it's suddenly uninteresting or boring, it seems.

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I've been helping translate a book containing accounts of the experiences of thirty nonbinary people into Japanese, and I've really had to go in depth into an area of humanity that I knew little about so that I can explain the nuances of every difficult sentence to the translator.

Your thoughts are exactly in line with those of the people in the book. You 'get it'.

chrys_oniisan said:

I said intersex is a reality (that means more than 2 sexes exist)
and those (intersexed) persons were born this way.
This is entirely natural.
But the fabrication of binary sexes isn't natural at all.

The issue with the concept of "convincing transition" is multiple :

• 1st of all, this means there only exists one definition of F or M gender (and one way to achieve them)
• then, it ignores gender is also cultural, as well as being a subjective notion.

You also mentioned a boy is born with a penis
but girls also have a penis, it's just called a clitoris
but if they were to be males, that part of their body would have been longer / larger and would have been called a penis.
And this is just a biological fact.

I suppose we should respect one's identity & we don't have the right to choose their identity, especially when this identity is based on visuals.
1st of all, our eyes aren't a perfect sensitive tool & then (the sight can mislead us);
if we judge one's identity based on our very own eyes, that means anyone can "pass" for a girl or a boy, if they change their outfit, hair style, wear makeup etc...
I suppose being a girl or a boy isn't about apperance, it's about how you feel & how you behave in society, right?
I truly believe in the self identity anyone can assert for himself / herself
so I believe that if a person uses the F pronouns then I'll follow along, and if the person prefers the M pronouns, I'll follow this instruction as well.
Who am I to decide someone else's identity?

As I mentionned earlier, many trans ppl live an ordinary life & aren't visibly trans ppl,
that's because ppl can transition and blend in;
that process isn't extreme or sensational in itself and it last a few weeks / years...

What do you think of my avatar?

Click to expand...

I like your avatar. Is that you?

Just to add to your comment about the penis/clitoris, in a study on the sexing of newborns in American hospitals, it was found that for about 1.5% of births, the doctors could not confidently state 'it's a boy' or 'it's a girl'. That's roughly the proportion of red-haired people in the US. And that's before you include the 'invisible' people, which probably make up the majority of nonbinary/trans people.

We're talking about a very sizable number of people, with a world population exceeding that of Japan.

chrys_oniisan said:

This is entirely natural.

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And that does not make it normal or helpful to humanity to pretend it is.

Nobody is trying to claim that nature is perfect and no errors are made....or are they now?

There are two biological genders....then there are natural occuring errors of various types. This is not the creation of new biological genders even if wanting to believe so makes people feel better.

chrys_oniisan said:

Calling someone sick is already an offense, though.

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"Sick" has unwanted connotations which is why I never used that word.

But when one takes offense due to non-acceptance of reality its a personal problem, not a societal one.

Bai Ling is a semi-famous actress who insists she is from the Moon. She is welcome to believe that. She is not welcome to receive a Moon passport for international travel.

chrys_oniisan said:

but girls also have a penis, it's just called a clitoris

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Unless it contains a urethra its not a penis.

I have long been well aware of the similarity between the male and female sex organs, but they are meant to develop in some ways that are very distinct. If they don't its an error, not a new gender.

Anyone is welcome to pretend otherwise, but not in textbooks.

Master of Time said:

I have not got the slightest Idea what you are on about.

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Well, I'm sad to hear that. I thought because you yourself realize that you are not "normal" in certain ways (like I am, like we all are) that you might be willing to entertain the idea of being understanding to those who are "abnormal" in maybe different ways than you are.

Master of Time said:

I feel like you don't have a concept of the line between giving people empathy and bending over backwards to try and make them feel better about every little thing (which won't work, you only get spoiled monsters that way whose demands just become more and more excessive, and that is what we are seeing already).

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Well, if you're going to go that far (I was trying to be very diplomatic and not "accuse" you of anything, but since you feel the need to basically tell me I'm an idiot who doesn't understand simple concepts), I would say that you don't have a concept of empathy. At all. There is nothing you have posted in this thread that shows empathy to people in a different situation than you. Period. Full stop. And no, saying "I empathize with you but yeah, just shut up and stop talking about your rights because you're not normal and sick and you just need to accept that everyone will always hate you and think you're a freak, because that's what you are" is not empathy in any meaningful sense of the word.

I have no idea why (well, I do know why -- it's called "cognitive dissonance") you can simultaneously admit that you yourself are not normal in many ways, and yet at the same time, when it comes to gender issues, you can be so eager to point the finger at transgender people and shout at the top of your lungs "YOU'RE NOT NORMAL!!!! I'M NORMAL!!! DON'T CALL ME CISGENDER OR EVEN PRETEND THAT I'M EVEN REMOTELY ON THE SAME SPECTRUM OF NORMAL AS YOU ARE! WHAT YOU THINK IS YOUR GENDER IDENTITY IS JUST A MENTAL SICKNESS!!! YOU ARE A WEIRD FREAK WHOSE VERY EXISTENCE IS AN ERROR!!! I AM NORMAL AND CORRECT!!!"

...which is essentially what you're saying. Maybe not in those words, but believe me, that's how it comes off when someone who wants to present themselves as "normal" punches down at a minority who is already struggling with their own identity.

I mean, you seem to consider even making the slightest effort to recognize the fundamental humanity of transgender people to be some personal affront to you. Why should you have think about pronouns? You're "normal", so you should just be able to live your "normal" life without those yucky transgender people making you expend a single moment or iota of emotional energy entertaining the mere possibility that some people might live in a different reality or a live a different daily existence than you do.

Sigh....I'm probably going to regret posting this, but the cognitive dissonance frustrates me. Why do we need to fight each other when we're all "eggs", as per the Murakami quote (which I'm sad didn't resonate with you at all).

Sorry, as a follow-up to my last post I just wanted to say that I have no interest in ligitating specific issues about biology or about to what degree transgender individuals or anyone do and don't deserve to be listened to and understood.

What I am talking about is having a certain degree of (genuine) empathy for one's fellow human beings. That is the only level at which I am interested in having a discussion, because I feel like the issue is as simple as that. If you disagree, unfortunately, I'm afraid we probably won't be progressing much further with this conversation.

(And I do mean "unfortunately", because at least at one point, I felt that you were someone capable of having a genuine conversation focused on ideas rather than on politically or emotionally charged polemic.)

bentenmusume said:

I thought because you yourself realize that you are not "normal" in certain ways (like I am, like we all are) that you might be willing to entertain the idea of being understanding to those who are "abnormal" in maybe different ways than you are.

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Do you think I have been mean or something? I am not being mean to anyone. I am just not going to support foisting indivdual delusions on everyone else.....and I have also warned of the backlash long ago...which we see now...and that was a kindness.

bentenmusume said:

...which is essentially what you're saying.

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That is not what I am saying at all. I never said anything remotely like anyone was a freak. I did say one gave me the creeps, not that he was a creep.

I really don't understand why you misunderstand me so badly. But it does seem like something I have experienced before....the need of some people to have an enemy to shout at. I am extremely neutral on this topic...and that puts me right of the left, and left of the right, and both sides then decide I am the enemy....just because they want one so badly.

I think trans people should have the same civil rights as everyone else....but not special rights. How is that even controversial?

The only way I can imagine it would be is if someone believes they can force people to love rather than just force them to not discriminate. Well sorry, but there are many people who are not going to love LGBTQ+ and that's just life, man. It does not mean I don't empathize.

Another thing is that we cannot SEE psychological gender. We just can't. I wish we could, but we can't. We see biological gender correctly most of the time, so that is easy to work with. Anything else is making special requests of strangers and mere acquaintences which gets ridiculous very quickly. This is just physical and psychological reality. All the empathy in the world won't change it.

In short, its the universe without empathy. Me pointing that out does not make me mean. I am sorry facts are hurting you. But I can't change them.

I am telling you facts so that we can all arrive at fair and POSSIBLE conclusions. If I have a flaw it is that I am rather machine-like in my delivery. But boo-hooing everyone's boo-hoos got old with me a long time ago. But, plenty of shoulders out there to cry I on. I just want to deliver facts and come up with solutions. Tired of everything else.