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Japan Is No Threat, Just A Strong Power

My problem with Bramicus' initial post are 2 serious misrepresentations/misinformation:

1. "OVER" Japan/Japanese Territority,
2. omitting that the target was Taiwan

as I have repeatedly pointed out.

I also NEVER said "over Japan itself" as Bramicus alleged [check all my posts], but simply "over JAPAN" [the country], which of course include Japanese land and waters or Japanese territory!

I'll leave this at that. The importance anyway was to point out the 2 misinformation, and to establish factual accuracy.
 
Bull. I changed "over" to "near" immediately, and you told us about Taiwan. Yet your attacks continued for many posts thereafter.

North Korea will soon have nuclear capability (if it doesn't already), has threatened Japan in the recent past, and has shot a missile over Japan. Japan should develop the capacity to retaliate in kind, and needs to change its constitution to allow that. Nuclear deterrence is the only way to defend against a totalitarian military power enemy with nuclear missile capability. Anti-missile systems won't work: sooner of later one or more will get through the defence. And treaties can be cancelled. China and the U.S. are becoming closer all the time, and since Japan's constitution doesn't even allow them to come to America's defense if America is attacked, Japan can't rely indefinitely on America to come to its aid if it is attacked with nuclear weapons. If North Korea isn't stopped (which China could do if it wanted to), then Japan must develop nuclear weapons if it wants to survive, and the constitutional capacity to use them in self-defense.
 
Bramicus said:
No one is arguing about what "territory" means, but about what "over Japan itself" means in idiomatic English.
Well, that's connected: Japanese territory = Japan = Japan itself, unless you can provide some evidence to the contrary. Until now, you didn't show us any evidence.

Bossel: You didn't say "over Japan itself", you said "over Japanese territory." That shows your misleading intention! [Huh??!?!?!?!!!]
& again misleading. My last point about you being misleading was that you wrote that I'd agree with you.

Sounds like kindergarten, doesn't it. How long do you and Qwertyu want to keep this up, Bossel?
What makes you think I could speak for Qwertyu? :eek: As for me, as long as you represent wrong what I said, I won't let up.


Bramicus said:
Bull. I changed "over" to "near" immediately, and you told us about Taiwan.
Nope, you changed it only after Qwertyu's response. That's not what I'd call immediately.
 
if it is attacked with nuclear weapons. If North Korea isn't stopped
(which China could do if it wanted to), then Japan must develop nuclear
weapons if it wants to survive, and the constitutional capacity to use
them in self-defense.

I think it`s hardly possible for N.Korea to attack Japan with nuclear weapons. And not because of the reason that she doesn`t have them. N.Korean gov-t can be rigid, communist, offensive... but not suicidal. The first missle (even not nuclear) which is aimed to meet its target will signify the end of current leadership (and, probably, the regime as well).
When USSR ceased to exist N.Korea found herself all alone in a changing
world. If before she could balance between USSR and China and get her advantages, then the new disposition was quite dangerous for her. For some reasons she didn`t like to coop with China and, for obvious reasons she wouldn`t associate with others. 'Nuke threat' was hers only key to balance between different forces, to have dialog with US and blackmail the west - to get money and provisions in exchange for letting inspectors examine suspicious facilities.

In a way situation with N.Korea vaguely remindes situation with Yugoslavia
in late 90-ies. The state is an important geopolitical 'plug' in Asian and Pacific
region. Some powers will for sure benefit from military conflict, other can skim
their profit as long as situation is tense and conflict is going on. But from what will benefit North-east Asia and N.Korea herself? :?

And another question what Japan gov-t needs nuclear weapons for? To meet what threat, in front of whose face to brandish?
 
Void said:
I think it`s hardly possible for N.Korea to attack Japan with nuclear weapons. And not because of the reason that she doesn`t have them. N.Korean gov-t can be rigid, communist, offensive... but not suicidal.
I hope you're right, but I wouldn't want to trust the safety of my country, especially against the possibility of nuclear attack, on the sanity and capacity for rational thinking of the current leader of North Korea.

Void said:
And another question what Japan gov-t needs nuclear weapons for? To meet what threat, in front of whose face to brandyou're Russian.
This is kind of a side question, but it's related to this topic. Since you're Russian, let me ask you: What did Russia ever need nuclear weapons for?
 
Bramicus said:
This is kind of a side question, but it's related to this topic. Since you're Russian, let me ask you: What did Russia ever need nuclear weapons for?

since you are american let me answer - to balance the US. To keep political world bi-polar. There runs the legend that scientists in US shared some of their research with russians after Japan`s bombing. What do you think they did it for? :D
 
Void said:
since you are american let me answer - to balance the US.
Exactly. China, whose government supports (or at least does not hinder) anti-Japanese "demonstrations" (some would call them riots) has thousands of nuclear-tipped missiles. North Korea, which has threatened to make the Sea of Japan "a ring of fire," is rapidly developing nuclear capability and has already demonstrated its ability to deliver nuclear missiles by shooting a nuclear-capable missile over Japan.
 
do not forget to count then India & Pakistan, France and UK and S.Korea with Iran, just in case :D and many other countries which are capable of creating nuclear weapons, but could be easily restricted by economical sanctions brought by... guess whom
let`s spread 'nukes' all over, it certainly will ease the communication :D
 
Void said:
let`s spread 'nukes' all over, it certainly will ease the communication :D
A gun in every pocket, an ICBM in every garage. Now yer talkin'!
lolgif-1.jpg
 
Bramicus said:
A gun in every pocket, an ICBM in every garage. Now yer talkin'!
lolgif-1.jpg

yeah, but the sad truth - in this case not "there will be left only one", but "there will be left noone"
 
Void said:
yeah, but the sad truth - in this case not "there will be left only one", but "there will be left noone"
Maybe, maybe not. If not for the MAD (mutually assured destruction) atomic deterrence, there would have been a World War III. We avoided it only because both the U.S. and the C.C.C.P. (U.S.S.R.) knew the price would be too high.

Of course, when nukes get into the hands of religious fanatics who love death, that's another matter!

"You love life and we love death."​
- from an al-Qaeda tape claiming responsibility for the Madrid attacks

ツ"The Americans love Pepsi-Cola. We love death.ツ"​
- Maulana Inyadullah, Afghan mujahaden fighter, on why the soldeirs of the Taliban have no fear of a possible invasion by U.S. forces and their allies.

"Good works will improve the political, social, and economic conditions in those Muslim, Western, and Asian societies where the groups find havens. They will help those countries build alternative futures for their people. Hence, the importance of success in rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq and fostering progress in many other societies.

"But we cannot afford to forget that the terrorist groups themselves actually care nothing about social progress, or economic development or political freedoms--or, for that matter, Palestinians. They are inspired by an absolutist ideology and rabid convictions: that the world is dominated by a Zionist-Christian conspiracy, that Muslim countries should be run according to al-Qaeda's fanatical view of the Koran as practiced by the Taliban, and that Western democracies stand in the way of implementing their vision."​
- the Honorable Michael Thawley (Australia)

Unlike those maniacs, Japan is not a fanatical society that would start a nuclear war.
 
Those fanatics don`t have the possibilities to produce nuclear weapons. The only way they can get it if some of the countries possessing it will make them a strange present (don`t forget ballistic missiles to carry this staff). For now i think it is hardly possible.

As for terrorism, it is outrageous, but it didn`t come from nowhere

Good works will improve the political, social, and economic conditions in those Muslim, Western, and Asian societies where the groups find havens. They will help those countries build alternative futures for their people. Hence, the importance of success in rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq and fostering progress in many other societies.
sounds very hypocritical, imo

They are inspired by an absolutist ideology and rabid convictions: that the world is dominated by a Zionist-Christian conspiracy, that Muslim countries should be run according to al-Qaeda's fanatical view of the Koran as practiced by the Taliban, and that Western democracies stand in the way of implementing their vision
Not all muslim countries think this way, i dare say - the majority of them

as for Sep. 11 mentioned in that article i`d say these were not al-Qaeda`s fanatics who commited that
 
Void said:
Those fanatics don`t have the possibilities to produce nuclear weapons.
Once Iran completes its goal of developing nuclear weapons, those fanatics will have the ability to obtain a nuclear weapon.

Void said:
As for terrorism, it is outrageous, but it didn`t come from nowhere
I guess we're going away from the original topic here; I'll leave it to the administration whether to move this thread elsewhere now.

As for "where terrorism comes from," it is not hard to find if one doesn't mind speaking politically incorrect truths. In his brilliant book, "Clash of Cultures and the Remaking of World Order," Samuel Huntington speaks of Islam's "bloody borders." There is no Methodist Jihad, there are no Hasidic holy warriors, no Southern Baptist suicide bombers, no Mormon elders preaching the annihilation of members of other faiths. Islam is a warrior religion – the perfect vessel for fanatics, the violence-prone, the envious and haters of all stripes.

But, you might ask, why the recent increase in the level worldwide of terrorist violence? I think the answer to that is clear if you think about it rationally. Al-Qaeda was born not with the birth of Israel, or the intifada, or President Bush's election -- none of those things. Al Qaeda was born when Islamic mujahedin, including Osama bin Laden, drove the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. Of course, they did it with the help of the CIA and other American military support, both covert and overt, but that's not how the Islamic world sees it. They see it as an historic victory over a great nation, harkening back to the fabled days when other great nations fell to Islam. This caused a tremendous revival in religious fundamentalism and in support for what became known as Al Qaeda, that is ongoing today. Every victory against a major nation, every surrender by Western powers, every appeasement, will cause a corresponding increase in the might and ferocity of Al Qaeda and its terrorist allies.

If America abandons Iraq to the international terrorist elements who are besieging it (the great majority of the "insurgents" committing terrorism there are foreign-born Al Qaeda supporters coming in through Syria), then look for a new, more vehement, and much more deadly wave of terrorist acts around the world.

Void said:
As for Sep. 11 mentioned in that article I'd say these were not al-Qaeda`s fanatics who committed that
I'm not sure what you mean by that. But if you mean what it sounds like you're saying -- that Al Qaeda did not commit the 9/11 atrocities -- I will take it the same way as if you said "Americans never landed on the moon; it was all a hoax filmed in Hollywood."
 
It really riles me to read simplistic b/w versions of the world and to see yet more misinformation, fictitious statistics cited and cowboy propaganda.

http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html


July 18, 2005 Issue
Copyright ツゥ 2005 The American Conservative



The Logic of Suicide Terrorism

Itテ不 the occupation, not the fundamentalism


The American Conservative: Your new book, Dying to Win, has a subtitle: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism. Can you just tell us generally on what the book is based, what kind of research went into it, and what your findings were?

Robert Pape: Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This research is conducted not only in English but also in native-language sourcesテ羨rabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil, and othersテ壮o that we can gather information not only from newspapers but also from products from the terrorist community......


RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaignテ双ver 95 percent of all the incidentsテ蘇as had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw......

Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life...
 
Unlike those maniacs, Japan is not a fanatical society that would start a nuclear war.

Yeah, but it is perfectly alright to wage a chemical/biological war on unarmed civilians! Americans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Germans, are all EQUALLY capable of the atrocities of torture, of using terrible weapons of horror and mass destruction, of war crimes and mass slaughter. In fact, the Americans are the first to use nuclear weapons on a non-nuclear country, and the Germans and Japanese have used weapons of mass horror on hundreds of thousands of unarmed peoples. Was Japan "uncivilised" or "fanatical" before WWII, or was it merely a staunchly nationalistic, coldly ambitious and calculating military power? What kind of brutal future will blind patriotism and the desire for global hegemony lead us?


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article298070.ece

Chemical weapons test site fuels rage over Japanese wartime atrocities

Scientists find evidence of vast plant that used POWs as human guinea pigs in gas and biological warfare
By David Eimer
Published:テ?0 July 2005

Chinese scientists have found the site of a huge Second World War Japanese army chemical weapons testing facility. Located in the remote grasslands of Inner Mongolia, the site was used by the Japanese to test poison gas bombs from 1940 onwards. Chinese prisoners of war, captured during the 1937-45 Sino-Japanese War, are believed to have been used as human guinea pigs during the tests.
As many as 250,000 Chinese died between 1937 and 1945 as a result of being exposed to such weapons. More than 2,000 people have subsequently been killed and injured by chemical weapons that were hastily abandoned by the Japanese army at the end of the Second World War. Only two weeks ago, three people in the southern province of Guangdong were hospitalised after inhaling gas that had leaked from discarded artillery shells. Japanese authorities estimate there are 700,000 such weapons scattered around China; the Chinese put the number at two million.
The plant, which is about 20 miles south-east of Hulun Buir city in the far north of Inner Mongolia, was found by a team led by Jin Chengmin from Harbin Municipal Academy of Social Sciences. He said: "It covers an area of 40 square miles. It may be the largest and best-preserved gas experiment site in the world. We've found more than a thousand pits that were used for experiments, as well as trenches and shelters for people and vehicles."
News of the discovery emerged earlier this week, just three days before the 68th anniversary of the start of the Sino-Japanese War, and has further fuelled China's lingering anger over what it sees as Japan's refusal to apologise properly for its army's actions in the war. A sign of how important an issue the war still is to the Chinese came this Thursday when a Beijing museum's exhibition of photos of Japanese army atrocities was opened by Li Changchun, a member of the Standing Committee of the Communist Party's Politburo and one of China's most senior politicians.
Mr Jin's team found the site after consulting the memoirs of a Japanese soldier who had served there and by interviewing elderly residents of the area. One local, a man named Abide who worked at the town's railway station in 1940, recalled seeing special trains carrying Japanese soldiers and prisoners of war arriving at the station and hearing that experiments were being conducted on human beings.
In a report from Xinhua News Agency, Abide said: "I was told that the herders had been driven off the grassland, and many pits had been dug there. In the summer of 1941, if there was a north-westerly wind, people could smell an irritating odour, and many people and animals were affected and died as a result."
Mr Jin expressed his concern about the threat posed by the site: "We can't say there are no bombs left there. We found one bomb in a local family's house. They didn't know it was a bomb and were using it as a tool."
The sparsely populated area was chosen as a testing ground because of its proximity to the Russian border. Mr Jin, who has been researching Japan's biological and chemical warfare programme since 1995, said: "At that time, the Japanese intended to attack the Soviet Union and, because the climate and terrain of Inner Mongolia are similar to Russia's, they wanted to study how these weapons would work in cold conditions."
Under a UN convention, Japan is required to have disposed of all its leftover chemical weapons by 2007. As part of that process, the Japanese will start building a ツ」1bn decommissioning facility at Haerbaling in north-east China this summer, as well as smaller facilities elsewhere.
"Japan conducted chemical and germ warfare in two thirds of the country, but especially in the north, north-east and south of China," said Mr Jin.
Harbin, in north-east China, was the headquarters of the programme and the site of the notorious Unit 731 camp, where Japanese army medical units killed 3,000 prisoners of war and civilians by infecting them with anthrax, cholera and bubonic plague, as well as performing human vivisections. Now, the Chinese want the site of Unit 731 to be granted UN World Heritage status, like Auschwitz and the Hiroshima Peace Memorial.
"It should qualify for World Heritage status," said Mr Jin. "The ruins serve as a permanent reminder of the atrocities Japanese troops committed in China."
Chinese scientists have found the site of a huge Second World War Japanese army chemical weapons testing facility. Located in the remote grasslands of Inner Mongolia, the site was used by the Japanese to test poison gas bombs from 1940 onwards. Chinese prisoners of war, captured during the 1937-45 Sino-Japanese War, are believed to have been used as human guinea pigs during the tests.
As many as 250,000 Chinese died between 1937 and 1945 as a result of being exposed to such weapons. More than 2,000 people have subsequently been killed and injured by chemical weapons that were hastily abandoned by the Japanese army at the end of the Second World War. Only two weeks ago, three people in the southern province of Guangdong were hospitalised after inhaling gas that had leaked from discarded artillery shells. Japanese authorities estimate there are 700,000 such weapons scattered around China; the Chinese put the number at two million.
 
qwertyu said:
It really riles me to read simplistic b/w versions of the world and to see yet more misinformation, fictitious statistics cited and cowboy propaganda.
So you're back for more flaming? Why don't you present some reasoned analysis or a contrary view, instead of just resorting to emotionalism and calling names? Why don't you try presenting some original thought of your own, instead of verbatim copying (which is illegal copyright violation, BTW) of entire portions of other people's articles? At least paraphrase them, rearrange the words a bit, or mix them up to show a little originality. But just cutting and pasting entire articles is a waste of space. Just leave the link; that would be OK.

And what "fictitious statistics"? Have you any evidence?
 
Flaming? You quoted the first sentence of my very long post, how about addressing tghe "flaming" in the rest of it?

And this is Fictitious:

Exactly. China, whose government supports (or at least does not hinder) anti-Japanese "demonstrations" (some would call them riots) has thousands of nuclear-tipped missiles.


Article Commentary: A Sustained Reaction - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
Article Commentary: A Sustained Reaction - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Based upon these various assessments, a realistic estimate of China's nuclear arsenal is a total force of 30 nuclear warheads operationally deployed on ICBMs and another 50-100 on medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs), for a total force of 80-130 nuclear weapons. (See "China's Arsenal, by the Numbers,")
 
qwertyu said:
the Americans are the first to use nuclear weapons on a non-nuclear country, and the Germans and Japanese have used weapons of mass horror on hundreds of thousands of unarmed peoples. ... Chinese scientists have found the site of a huge Second World War Japanese army chemical weapons testing facility.
Still reciting crimes from 60 years ago to generate hate-mongering today? If we find new evidence of Nazi atrocities that occurred in 1944, does that mean we should declare war on Germany now?

qwertyu said:
What kind of brutal future will blind patriotism and the desire for global hegemony lead us?
As far as I can see, the only ones trying to conquer other countries for "global hegemony" (a favorite Communist Party phrase) today are Islamist fundamentalists.
 
And instead of depending entirely on my own subjective, inflated, biased, shallow understanding and limited knowledge of highly specialised fields, I prefer to defer to the well-research, annotated and documented opinions and conclusions of highly visible experts who NEED to stand by, back up and defend their reputation, analyses, theses and theories to their peers and other specialists in their respective fields. I find those to be far more convincing, persuasive and credible than anonymous posters spouting hot air on the internet. What about you?
 
qwertyu said:
Flaming? You quoted the first sentence of my very long post, how about addressing tghe "flaming" in the rest of it?
I quoted from the only part of your entire post that was actually original from you. The rest you just cut and pasted off the Internet.

qwertyu said:
Article Commentary: A Sustained Reaction - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
Article Commentary: A Sustained Reaction - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Based upon these various assessments, a realistic estimate of China's nuclear arsenal is a total force of 30 nuclear warheads operationally deployed on ICBMs and another 50-100 on medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs), for a total force of 80-130 nuclear weapons. (See "China's Arsenal, by the Numbers,")
Thanks for providing that information. Of course, it's all conjecture since the actual numbers are secret, but I'm glad to find out that China's nuclear arsenal is much less than I thought. "Only" 150 or so nuclear missiles. Practically harmless, eh?
 
qwertyu said:
instead of depending entirely on my own subjective, inflated, biased, shallow understanding and limited knowledge of highly specialised fields, ...
You shouldn't call yourself names either. You're not that bad.
winkgif-1.jpg
 
Still reciting crimes from 60 years ago to generate hate-mongering today? If we find new evidence of Nazi atrocities that occurred in 1944, does that mean we should declare war on Germany now?

Kindly point out how:

1.Citing Japan's war records = hate-mongering
2.Where in any of my posts I have proposed to "declare war" on the Axis Powers because of "new evidence" of 1944 "atrocities".

PLEASE
 
>"Only" 150 or so nuclear missiles. Practically harmless, eh?

Accuracy please, it's "80 to130". "Harmless"? It's relative isn't it? I dunno, how many have the Americans and Russians got?

Ops, that should be "80-130" not "80 to 130", before I get dragged through the mud for this "misrepresentation".
 
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