Japan China dispute over islands.

another ppl · 31 Aug 2004

bossel said:
The easiest & fairest way to decide what should be done are democratic elections or a plebiscite.

not that easy
not that fair

bossel said:
As I said, that's up to the Taiwanese to decide.

of course not

sima_yi · 1 Sep 2004

bossel said:
It's hard to find a PM in the federal government anyway, we have a chancellor (Bundeskanzler).

Ahem, I'm talking of Germany today, not 1919.
But, anyway, you should re-attend your German history lessons . The "Rﾃ､terepublik" of 1919 was a socialist uprising without too much popular support. Most Bavarians were against it. Mind you, during democratic (!) elections in January 1919 conservatives & moderate socialists formed the vast majority in the parliament, a Social Democrat became prime minister.
The USPD ("Independent Social Democratic Party", radical socialists) took the leading role in the revolt, but although they declared the Soviet Republic of Bavaria, their influence didn't reach much further than the borders of Munich. Furthermore, it was not so much the central government (though it helped) but the Bavarian government that led the fight against the revolutionaries.

It's quite improbable that Holland took it away, it wasn't part of China before the Dutch arrived.

Koxinga (鄭成功) didn't want to claim Taiwan for the Ming dynasty but was more or less on the run from the Manchus. There was not much left of Ming-China when he arrived with 25,000 followers in Taiwan.

Wasn't that 1683, when the Manchus annexed Western Taiwan?

Wasn't that in 1895?

That's what I would call opportunism (or: sucking up). But, well, as I said, that's the problem of formal vs. factual independence.

Oh, polls, what a nice topic. It all depends on who asks whom, & how the question is formulated. Where did you get that from?
I have another one from 2002 for you: "Of the respondents, 73.2 percent were against "one country, two systems," while 17.3 percent declined to answer the question."

I would say, it belongs to the people who live there. The easiest & fairest way to decide what should be done are democratic elections or a plebiscite.

As I said, that's up to the Taiwanese to decide.

I have never said that 45% of the Taiwanese ppl wish to have one country and 2 systems; I only said that they agreed that "they are Chinese and Taiwnese at the same time". They may propose other systems too such as Federation or something else. Please read it carefully.....

seasurfer · 1 Sep 2004

In my opinion, before we make any comments on whether Taiwan should go independent or not, we should look back at the history of China and understand the feeling of what Taiwanese generally feel today.

First, lets briefly look at the history of Republic of China, it was formed in 1912. The erstwhile ruling party was the Nationalist Party or the Kuomingtang (中國國民黨）. In 1945, when the WW2 ended, Taiwan island was returned to the Republic of China, ending its 50 years of Japanese occupation. At the beginning most people living in Taiwan was quite happy about the returning to Republic of China. The fact is simple enough, most people living on this island are chinese. And no one like the Japanese atrocities. However, not long after the return, human-made disaster happened, the KMT (kuomingtang) didn't really treat the people living on this island well. Some even felt that the Japanese had even treat them better. At the same time, the KMT was facing an uprising communist. In 1949, the communist finally came to rule most of China, leaving only Hainan and Taiwan ruled by the KMT. It was also at that time, the People Republic of China formed. The communist then unilaterally declared that, the Republic of China is a past, is no longer a country and do not represent China or chinese people. In 1951, the communist took over Hainan, leaving only Taiwan left for the KMT.

As a result, the only area that is ruled by the Republic of China today is Taiwan island and a few islands that belongs to Fujian Province in Mainland China. That is all the Republic of China has today. Even till now, the Republic of China's law claimed that, Mainland China and Taiwan belongs to the Republic of China. And there is only one CHINA, which is the Republic of China.

On the other hand, the communist law claimed that, Mainland China and Taiwan belongs to People Republic of China. And there is only one CHINA, which is the People Republic of China.

Now, both sides officially claims that they are the sole representative of China since 1949.

In the international arena. Republic of China is the only CHINA that is recognized to represent all china until 1972. Though the communist had claimed that it didnt exist since 1949, but it was internationally recognized by United Nation and the whole world until 1972. The problem between the two sides is that, only one CHINA can be recognized, so you either have to recognized the capitalist chinese or the communist chinese, but not both. US decied to recognize the communist...so Republic of China was replaced by People Republic of China in the UN. Most of the country in the world then turn their recognition to People Republic of China. So, the communist chinese is the only chinese recognized today. And the capitalist chinese, only has a handful of small and not influential countries recognition.

Now the problem comes. People Republic of China keeps saying that Republic of China has stopped to exist. So whatever that belongs to the former Republic of China is rightfully belongs to the People Republic of China. Because they claimed to be the continuation of Republic of China. On the other side, the KMT still think that the communist is the illegal ruling party of China, and the establishment of People Republic of China is illegal.

Problems you need to think:
1. Do you think that Republic of China still exists? It is yes, because, Republic of China still has Taiwan and a few small islands. It is no, because, Republic of China does not rightfully represent most of the chinese population. So what you think?

2. Republic of China has ruled mainland china since 1912 until the day the communist took over. They lost a civil war in Mainland China. But does losing a civil war make them lost their country? On the other hand, the communist never at any moment, took over Taiwan island, so the Republic of China didn't really extinguished totally. So, Republic of China is still the country for those people who live in it. Such as the people living in Taiwan, Jinmen, Mazu...

3. The Republic of China was established by the KMT. In year 2000, KMT lost its ruling over the Republic of China and a pro-independent DPP is now in charge of it. KMT and DPP have totally opposite view about the country. KMT claimed that Taiwan island has been part of China, which is of course Republic of China, not PRC. DPP claims that Taiwan island is all along independent. The law in Republic of China states that Taiwan is part of it. This law has not been changed till today. DPP wants to changed it, and is trying very hard for it. However, they seems to lost it. Now, the problem that you need to think is, should people living on Taiwan island alone (not to include people living on those small island) rule out Republic of China, which is lawfully their own country? As a citizen of your own country, do you think you are entitled a right to ruled out your own country?

4. Do you think people living in Taiwan equate people of Republic of China? Yes, because most the people live in Taiwan. No, because there are still citizens of Republic of China who do not live in Taiwan, those people are from Jinmen and Mazu islands, which are rightfully belongs to the Fujian Province in Mainland China. And of course, those who lives overseas. What do you think of it? Do you think people living in Taiwan alone can rule out others of their countrymen?

5. Let's go into the social life of Taiwan, since 1945 when the KMT ruled Taiwan, it has been taught in Taiwan's school that, Taiwan is part of China, of course, again, is Republic of China, not PRC. And that they are Chinese. Those people who go against it are considered betrayal. And they are probably locked up. Ever since the rise of DPP, the social life in Taiwan changed, the DPP started to emphasize TAIWAN, they tried to create a sense of TAIWANESE, and a sense of belongings of TAIWAN. And even to the extend that ruled out China and its culture. It has gain a lot of momentum, especially among the younger generation. Now, the fact is, a lot of people living in Taiwan still recognized the fact that they are Chinese, in fact, genetically they are, which is undeniable. At the same time, almost same amount of people don't recognize that they are Chinese. Moreover, more people stay on the centre line. They are the confused group, and they usually swing from one side to the other. For anyone who support Taiwan independent or against it, this is a major issue you need to ponder over.

6. The communist invented a one country two system that was intended to use on Taiwan, however got it implemented first in Hong Kong and Macau. The people living in Taiwan obviously reject it. The question is, how can you ask a country citizen to surrender to another country? People in Taiwan has been taught that they are the citizen of Republic of China. They hold the passport of Republic of China. This is one of the reason for the deadlock in their bilateral relationship. On the contrast, Pro-unification group in Taiwan state that, Mainland China is part of Republic of China, and is the only China that is supposed to be recognized. The question now is, how can you ask people living in Mainland China to recognized Republic of China, which to most of them, had extinguished 50 years ago? This is also a problem that caused the deadlock.

7. The civil war between the KMT and communist party has not ended yet. Both sides never officially declared that it actually ended, although, it remains peaceful now. And since it is considered a civil war, one will natural comes to the thinking that they are one country, isn't it? The question is, since it is a civil war, and has not ended yet, so there is no winner at all, do people living in Taiwan has a greater right to say that they want independent or not? Also, do people living in Mainland China have a greater say that they rightfully have Taiwan? When they haven't even win the war to prove to the world that they rightfully owned Taiwan.

For those who are really interested in discussing this issue, these are the questions that you need to ponder over carefully before you can give a comment which is fair for both sides.

**Today, the fact in Taiwan is that, most people choose to remain the status quo. That is why the DPP didn't really get support from its people to amend the constitution, which will probably disown the Republic of China.

sima_yi · 1 Sep 2004

seasurfer said:
In my opinion, before we make any comments on whether Taiwan should go independent or not, we should look back at the history of China and understand the feeling of what Taiwanese generally feel today.

First, lets briefly look at the history of Republic of China, it was formed in 1912. The erstwhile ruling party was the Nationalist Party or the Kuomingtang (中國國民黨）. In 1945, when the WW2 ended, Taiwan island was returned to the Republic of China, ending its 50 years of Japanese occupation. At the beginning most people living in Taiwan was quite happy about the returning to Republic of China. The fact is simple enough, most people living on this island are chinese. And no one like the Japanese atrocities. However, not long after the return, human-made disaster happened, the KMT (kuomingtang) didn't really treat the people living on this island well. Some even felt that the Japanese had even treat them better. At the same time, the KMT was facing an uprising communist. In 1949, the communist finally came to rule most of China, leaving only Hainan and Taiwan ruled by the KMT. It was also at that time, the People Republic of China formed. The communist then unilaterally declared that, the Republic of China is a past, is no longer a country and do not represent China or chinese people. In 1951, the communist took over Hainan, leaving only Taiwan left for the KMT.

As a result, the only area that is ruled by the Republic of China today is Taiwan island and a few islands that belongs to Fujian Province in Mainland China. That is all the Republic of China has today. Even till now, the Republic of China's law claimed that, Mainland China and Taiwan belongs to the Republic of China. And there is only one CHINA, which is the Republic of China.

On the other hand, the communist law claimed that, Mainland China and Taiwan belongs to People Republic of China. And there is only one CHINA, which is the People Republic of China.

Now, both sides officially claims that they are the sole representative of China since 1949.

In the international arena. Republic of China is the only CHINA that is recognized to represent all china until 1972. Though the communist had claimed that it didnt exist since 1949, but it was internationally recognized by United Nation and the whole world until 1972. The problem between the two sides is that, only one CHINA can be recognized, so you either have to recognized the capitalist chinese or the communist chinese, but not both. US decied to recognize the communist...so Republic of China was replaced by People Republic of China in the UN. Most of the country in the world then turn their recognition to People Republic of China. So, the communist chinese is the only chinese recognized today. And the capitalist chinese, only has a handful of small and not influential countries recognition.

Now the problem comes. People Republic of China keeps saying that Republic of China has stopped to exist. So whatever that belongs to the former Republic of China is rightfully belongs to the People Republic of China. Because they claimed to be the continuation of Republic of China. On the other side, the KMT still think that the communist is the illegal ruling party of China, and the establishment of People Republic of China is illegal.

Problems you need to think:
1. Do you think that Republic of China still exists? It is yes, because, Republic of China still has Taiwan and a few small islands. It is no, because, Republic of China does not rightfully represent most of the chinese population. So what you think?

2. Republic of China has ruled mainland china since 1912 until the day the communist took over. They lost a civil war in Mainland China. But does losing a civil war make them lost their country? On the other hand, the communist never at any moment, took over Taiwan island, so the Republic of China didn't really extinguished totally. So, Republic of China is still the country for those people who live in it. Such as the people living in Taiwan, Jinmen, Mazu...

3. The Republic of China was established by the KMT. In year 2000, KMT lost its ruling over the Republic of China and a pro-independent DPP is now in charge of it. KMT and DPP have totally opposite view about the country. KMT claimed that Taiwan island has been part of China, which is of course Republic of China, not PRC. DPP claims that Taiwan island is all along independent. The law in Republic of China states that Taiwan is part of it. This law has not been changed till today. DPP wants to changed it, and is trying very hard for it. However, they seems to lost it. Now, the problem that you need to think is, should people living on Taiwan island alone (not to include people living on those small island) rule out Republic of China, which is lawfully their own country? As a citizen of your own country, do you think you are entitled a right to ruled out your own country?

4. Do you think people living in Taiwan equate people of Republic of China? Yes, because most the people live in Taiwan. No, because there are still citizens of Republic of China who do not live in Taiwan, those people are from Jinmen and Mazu islands, which are rightfully belongs to the Fujian Province in Mainland China. And of course, those who lives overseas. What do you think of it? Do you think people living in Taiwan alone can rule out others of their countrymen?

5. Let's go into the social life of Taiwan, since 1945 when the KMT ruled Taiwan, it has been taught in Taiwan's school that, Taiwan is part of China, of course, again, is Republic of China, not PRC. And that they are Chinese. Those people who go against it are considered betrayal. And they are probably locked up. Ever since the rise of DPP, the social life in Taiwan changed, the DPP started to emphasize TAIWAN, they tried to create a sense of TAIWANESE, and a sense of belongings of TAIWAN. And even to the extend that ruled out China and its culture. It has gain a lot of momentum, especially among the younger generation. Now, the fact is, a lot of people living in Taiwan still recognized the fact that they are Chinese, in fact, genetically they are, which is undeniable. At the same time, almost same amount of people don't recognize that they are Chinese. Moreover, more people stay on the centre line. They are the confused group, and they usually swing from one side to the other. For anyone who support Taiwan independent or against it, this is a major issue you need to ponder over.

6. The communist invented a one country two system that was intended to use on Taiwan, however got it implemented first in Hong Kong and Macau. The people living in Taiwan obviously reject it. The question is, how can you ask a country citizen to surrender to another country? People in Taiwan has been taught that they are the citizen of Republic of China. They hold the passport of Republic of China. This is one of the reason for the deadlock in their bilateral relationship. On the contrast, Pro-unification group in Taiwan state that, Mainland China is part of Republic of China, and is the only China that is supposed to be recognized. The question now is, how can you ask people living in Mainland China to recognized Republic of China, which to most of them, had extinguished 50 years ago? This is also a problem that caused the deadlock.

7. The civil war between the KMT and communist party has not ended yet. Both sides never officially declared that it actually ended, although, it remains peaceful now. And since it is considered a civil war, one will natural comes to the thinking that they are one country, isn't it? The question is, since it is a civil war, and has not ended yet, so there is no winner at all, do people living in Taiwan has a greater right to say that they want independent or not? Also, do people living in Mainland China have a greater say that they rightfully have Taiwan? When they haven't even win the war to prove to the world that they rightfully owned Taiwan.

For those who are really interested in discussing this issue, these are the questions that you need to ponder over carefully before you can give a comment which is fair for both sides.

**Today, the fact in Taiwan is that, most people choose to remain the status quo. That is why the DPP didn't really get support from its people to amend the constitution, which will probably disown the Republic of China.

I bet you have As in Asia History 303 ^^ and Political Science 204.

another ppl · 2 Sep 2004

seasurfer said:
1. Do you think that Republic of China still exists? It is yes, because, Republic of China still has Taiwan and a few small islands. It is no, because, Republic of China does not rightfully represent most of the chinese population. So what you think?

Republic of China is an idea, Peoples's Republic of China is also an idea.
an idea exists if there are ppl who support it.
which idea do u support?

seasurfer said:
2. Republic of China has ruled mainland china since 1912 until the day the communist took over. They lost a civil war in Mainland China. But does losing a civil war make them lost their country? On the other hand, the communist never at any moment, took over Taiwan island, so the Republic of China didn't really extinguished totally. So, Republic of China is still the country for those people who live in it. Such as the people living in Taiwan, Jinmen, Mazu...

what u didnt mention is that the KMT not only lost the civil war, but also lost the support of Chinese ppl from both Mainland and Taiwan at that time.
problems with KMT like corruption, internal wrestling for power, noncooperation with CCP to resist Japanese invasion made the party very unpopular amongst gerneral populace.

when the lost of a civil war comes with a lost of support from ppl, u know waht it is.

it seems that KMT(or DPP) has regained support form ppl of Taiwan.
that's not surprising but makes the problem.

seasurfer said:
3. The Republic of China was established by the KMT. In year 2000, KMT lost its ruling over the Republic of China and a pro-independent DPP is now in charge of it. KMT and DPP have totally opposite view about the country. KMT claimed that Taiwan island has been part of China, which is of course Republic of China, not PRC. DPP claims that Taiwan island is all along independent. The law in Republic of China states that Taiwan is part of it. This law has not been changed till today. DPP wants to changed it, and is trying very hard for it. However, they seems to lost it. Now, the problem that you need to think is, should people living on Taiwan island alone (not to include people living on those small island) rule out Republic of China, which is lawfully their own country? As a citizen of your own country, do you think you are entitled a right to ruled out your own country?
4. Do you think people living in Taiwan equate people of Republic of China? Yes, because most the people live in Taiwan. No, because there are still citizens of Republic of China who do not live in Taiwan, those people are from Jinmen and Mazu islands, which are rightfully belongs to the Fujian Province in Mainland China. And of course, those who lives overseas. What do you think of it? Do you think people living in Taiwan alone can rule out others of their countrymen?

the title of ROC is not important
what is important is whether ppl in Taiwan still recognise themselves as Chinese ppl.
the title of country may change, but the ppl of a nation do not split.

seasurfer said:
5. Let's go into the social life of Taiwan, since 1945 when the KMT ruled Taiwan, it has been taught in Taiwan's school that, Taiwan is part of China, of course, again, is Republic of China, not PRC. And that they are Chinese. Those people who go against it are considered betrayal. And they are probably locked up. Ever since the rise of DPP, the social life in Taiwan changed, the DPP started to emphasize TAIWAN, they tried to create a sense of TAIWANESE, and a sense of belongings of TAIWAN. And even to the extend that ruled out China and its culture. It has gain a lot of momentum, especially among the younger generation. Now, the fact is, a lot of people living in Taiwan still recognized the fact that they are Chinese, in fact, genetically they are, which is undeniable. At the same time, almost same amount of people don't recognize that they are Chinese. Moreover, more people stay on the centre line. They are the confused group, and they usually swing from one side to the other. For anyone who support Taiwan independent or against it, this is a major issue you need to ponder over.

there is nothing to be appreciated in ppl who born to be Chinese but not recognising themselves as Chinese.
but not all their fault probably.

seasurfer said:
6. The communist invented a one country two system that was intended to use on Taiwan, however got it implemented first in Hong Kong and Macau. The people living in Taiwan obviously reject it. The question is, how can you ask a country citizen to surrender to another country? People in Taiwan has been taught that they are the citizen of Republic of China. They hold the passport of Republic of China. This is one of the reason for the deadlock in their bilateral relationship. On the contrast, Pro-unification group in Taiwan state that, Mainland China is part of Republic of China, and is the only China that is supposed to be recognized. The question now is, how can you ask people living in Mainland China to recognized Republic of China, which to most of them, had extinguished 50 years ago? This is also a problem that caused the deadlock.

idea of one country two system may be a joke for those who are crazy for political doctrines.
but everyone should see that CCP is already making compromises.
ppl in Mainland have no reason to support idea of ROC,
ppl inTaiwan do not like CCP most probably,
then reunification comes from compromises and accomodations from both sides.

dont address the thing the way like one country surrender to another country,
its one country.

to speak waht is in my mind, if communism is not so much opposed by the rest of the world in the past and now still,
then KMT is history,
tention is nowhere across the strait,
n Chinese ppl get a much easier life.

seasurfer said:
7. The civil war between the KMT and communist party has not ended yet. Both sides never officially declared that it actually ended, although, it remains peaceful now. And since it is considered a civil war, one will natural comes to the thinking that they are one country, isn't it? The question is, since it is a civil war, and has not ended yet, so there is no winner at all, do people living in Taiwan has a greater right to say that they want independent or not? Also, do people living in Mainland China have a greater say that they rightfully have Taiwan? When they haven't even win the war to prove to the world that they rightfully owned Taiwan.

gd point in making China one country.

let say civil war hasnt end,
n CCP not win yet, thanks to the US.
then KMT has choice ethier to win the war and claim the whole of China,
or to be defeated and surrender its land.
still there's nothing to do with Taiwan independence.
ppl in Taiwan have no right claiming independence.
ppl from Mainland do not claim Taiwan more than ppl from Taiwan.
Taiwan belongs to all Chinese ppl.

seasurfer said:
Today, the fact in Taiwan is that, most people choose to remain the status quo. That is why the DPP didn't really get support from its people to amend the constitution, which will probably disown the Republic of China.

thanks for the consciousness of Taiwanese ppl.

thanks for ur post as well

bossel · 2 Sep 2004

sima_yi said:
I have never said that 45% of the Taiwanese ppl wish to have one country and 2 systems; I only said that they agreed that "they are Chinese and Taiwnese at the same time". They may propose other systems too such as Federation or something else. Please read it carefully.....

I know very well you didn't say that, neither did I say that you said it. Please read it carefully.....

Seriously, just as I said, poll results depend on the poll. Interpretation of those results depend on the stance of the one who interprets. As you said, the poll I quoted doesn't say much about general support for re-unification, but neither does the one you quoted. I've seen many people from all over the world claim to be Chinese, even if they never sat a foot on Chinese soil (or sometimes even without knowing a word of Chinese), just because they had Chinese ancestors. Being ethnical Chinese doesn't make people automatically PRC citizens. Hence, when Taiwanese say that they are Chinese, this doesn't mean anything regarding re-unification. That was my point.

sima_yi · 2 Sep 2004

bossel said:
I know very well you didn't say that, neither did I say that you said it. Please read it carefully.....

Seriously, just as I said, poll results depend on the poll. Interpretation of those results depend on the stance of the one who interprets. As you said, the poll I quoted doesn't say much about general support for re-unification, but neither does the one you quoted. I've seen many people from all over the world claim to be Chinese, even if they never sat a foot on Chinese soil (or sometimes even without knowing a word of Chinese), just because they had Chinese ancestors. Being ethnical Chinese doesn't make people automatically PRC citizens. Hence, when Taiwanese say that they are Chinese, this doesn't mean anything regarding re-unification. That was my point.

Yes but from your counter point of presenting a poll saying 72% of ppl in Taiwan don't agree with one country 2 systems implies that "most of ppl in Taiwan" want to be independent instead of proposing another solution. Come on, They don't have to be PRC citizens, I think they should be Chinese citizens. PRC doesn't not represent China. The government in Taiwan once represented China, and they still can represent China. Before 1980s, Taiwanese government still claimed that they were the rightful government of China. Who represents whom is not an excuse to separate a state from a nation and have war.

another ppl · 2 Sep 2004

sima_yi said:
Come on; They don't have to be PRC citizens. I think they should be Chinese citizens. PRC doesn't not represent China. The government in Taiwan once represented China, and they still can represent China. Before the 1980s, the Taiwanese government still claimed that they were the rightful government of China. Who represents who is not an excuse to separate a state from a nation and have war.

agree

bossel said:
Being ethnical Chinese doesn't make people automatically PRC citizens.

Chinese ppl lives in alien lands have their choice of citizenship.
We still respect them if they do not harm their brothers.
That's their decision. They decide to leave.

bossel said:
Hence, when Taiwanese say that they are Chinese, this doesn't mean anything regarding reunification. That was my point.

I know sometimes they do not mean that. And they claim independence.
That is the point why the rest of the race condemns them.
they are not the same as overseas Chinese.
The diff is they live on the land that belongs to all Chinese ppl.
They simply do not have the right to split the country all by their wills.

bossel · 3 Sep 2004

sima_yi said:
Yes but from your counter point of presenting a poll saying 72% of ppl in Taiwan don't agree with one country 2 systems implies that "most of ppl in Taiwan" want to be independent instead of proposing another solution.

Well, I wrote in my last post "Interpretation of those results depend on the stance of the one who interprets."
Maybe I should have added: Implications lie in the eye of the reader. Since I as a reader never know what the writer implied, I try to avoid reading between the lines. (not always successful, but I try)

Come on, They don't have to be PRC citizens, I think they should be Chinese citizens. PRC doesn't not represent China. The government in Taiwan once represented China, and they still can represent China.

That's the big problem, isn't it? Re-unification at the moment would mean surrender to the PRC government.

another ppl said:
that is the point why they are condemned by the rest of the race.

The race? Hmm, I tend to stick to the biological definition of race, hence I can't see one Chinese race. But that aside, there are enough mainland Chinese who don't really care about Taiwan being independent or not.

they are not the same as overseas Chinese.
the diff is they live on the land that belongs to all Chinese ppl.
they simply do not have the right to split the country all by their wills.

The country is already split since 1949.
Why does the land belong to all Chinese? If it belongs to anybody, then to those who live there.

You Chinese live on Earth. Earth belongs to all humans. Hence I have the right to demand you to...
Oh! No! Earth doesn't belong to anybody, we just make use of it (& should actually keep it intact, but just BTW).

sima_yi · 3 Sep 2004

bossel said:
Well, I wrote in my last post "Interpretation of those results depend on the stance of the one who interprets."
Maybe I should have added: Implications lie in the eye of the reader. Since I as a reader never know what the writer implied, I try to avoid reading between the lines. (not always successful, but I try)

That's the big problem, isn't it? Re-unification at the moment would mean surrender to the PRC government.

The race? Hmm, I tend to stick to the biological definition of race, hence I can't see one Chinese race. But that aside, there are enough mainland Chinese who don't really care about Taiwan being independent or not.

The country is already split since 1949.
Why does the land belong to all Chinese? If it belongs to anybody, then to those who live there.

You Chinese live on Earth. Earth belongs to all humans. Hence I have the right to demand you to...
Oh! No! Earth doesn't belong to anybody, we just make use of it (& should actually keep it intact, but just BTW).

Who says unification means Taiwan's surrendering to PRC? Why can't they form a government based on mutual respect? So, since your country Germany had unification before, why can't China? Maybe in the future, PRC will not be communist anymore. I wonder why you are so in love with dividing other ppl's country. PRC and Taiwan can work on a solution, but solution takes times, I think even PRC is not a communist country, it will still invade Taiwan if it declares independence. No matter how wonderful the ideals are, no matter how right you are, once Taiwan declares independence, the mainland will definitely take serious action.

bossel · 3 Sep 2004

sima_yi said:
Who says unification means Taiwan's surrendering to PRC? Why can't they form a government based on mutual respect?

Mutual respect? The PRC & Chen?
If you didn't read it, I said "Re-unification at the moment would mean surrender to the PRC government. "

So, since your country Germany had unification before, why can't China?

Where did I say so?
(BTW, the unification was FR Germany swallowing the collapsed GDR, the FRG is still chewing [IE throwing money into a seemingly bottomless pit])

Maybe in the future, PRC will not be communist anymore.

Maybe.

I wonder why you are so in love with dividing other ppl's country.

I'm not. I wonder why you are so in love with seeing implications that are not there. I said (& repeated) that it's up to the Taiwanese. I didn't say they should vote this or that.

sima_yi · 3 Sep 2004

Yeah, ok. Since this problem is between PRC and Taiwan, we should let them solve it. Why are we arguing about -.-, I mean we are not even Chinese.......Why don't we let the Chinese ppl in this forum work out a solution?

another ppl · 3 Sep 2004

bossel said:
The race? Hmm, I tend to stick to the biological definition of race. Hence I can't see one Chinese race. But that aside, there are enough mainland Chinese who don't really care about Taiwan being independent or not.

(e race?
to make our conversation easier,
I will appreciate u a lot if u allow me to address the things in casual ways as long as u understand what I mean.)
The race here, I mean Chinese ppl.

Yes, there are Mainland Chinese who don't care about Tawain independence.
but,
these ppl r only enough to match those not-caring people also exist in TW,
not enough to say neither the rest of Chinese ppl don't care Taiwan independence nor the rest of Chinese ppl don't criticize Taiwan independence.

E rest Chinese ppl condemn Taiwan independence. That's e pt I still hold.

Actually, how many Chinese ppl have expressed objections towards Taiwan independence(predominantly majority already) is not directly linked to whether or not Taiwan independence is rightful.
What determines?
The principles that imply goodness, justice and morality will always be there.
n , with my limited knowledge, no race, no country, no nation, no people, has ever portrayed splitting the country as anything to do with goodness, justice, or morality but definitely the opposite thing.

Chinese ppl r dedicated to the course of reunification, which is the rightful.

bossel said:
The country is already split since 1949.
Why does the land belong to all Chinese? If it belongs to anybody, then to those who live there.

Do robbed items belong to the robber?
Do stolen items belong to the theft?
They just possess them as long as justice hasn't punished them.
Taiwan belongs to Taiwan Chinese as well as Mainland Chinese.
Taiwan never belongs to those group of ppl who r taking it away.

bossel said:
You Chinese live on Earth. The earth belongs to all humans. Hence I have the right to demand you to...
Oh! No! Earth doesn't belong to anybody. We just make use of it (& should actually keep it intact, but just BTW).

u don't have the right to demand any Chinese to do anything, as long as we don't claim our piece of land as the Eleventh Planet, n propel it into another place of e Galaxy.

u belongs to ur family n the same time as the entire human race.
Other ppl will not sue u for whatever fun u have at home.
Other ppl will sue u only if u do something that harms the human race.

It is both my reliability n compulsion to show my disapproval towards Taiwan independence, for the goodness of the whole nation, since Taiwan independence harms the nation as a whole.

I don't mean anything el, se
but I just have this question,
suppose u were born to be a Chinese (whether Mainland or Taiwan u can choose). Do u want to split the country?
Or when u split it, do u feel any sense of guilt towards ur ancestors who kept those so-much-loved everything for u, who are believed to have seen the weakening of the nation from somewhere, n who feel sad?

bossel said:
Mutual respect? The PRC & Chen?

speaking in favour of PRC, if u call that
PRC is seeking for reunification
ROC is seeking for independence
CCP likes to compromise as long as Taiwan does not declare independence.
I c compromise as the only peaceful solution.
That allows time to solve it while maintaining the status quo.
But ROC refuses cooperation n goes further away.
Ppl get angry.
I wonder whether the CCP can save it from something like a spontaneous war of people when the situation worsens, even if it decides not to declare war.

sima_yi said:
Yeah, ok. Since this problem is between PRC and Taiwan, we should let them solve it. Why are we arguing about -.-, I mean we are not even Chinese.......Why don't we let the Chinese ppl in this forum work out a solution?

I thought u were Chinese.

Thx for ur support.

work out e solution is not so tough

How to achieve it needs cooperations from the rest of the world.

seasurfer · 4 Sep 2004

sima_yi said:
I bet you have As in Asia History 303 ^^ and Political Science 204.

Thanks for your compliment. History was once one of my favourite and best subjects.

========================================================

It seems that people from the PRC used to think that it is the Taiwanese that wants to separate.

I wonder if anyone from the PRC ever thought of this before. If the people living in PRC do not want Taiwan to be part of China, and people in Taiwan want to be part of China...what will happen then? The fact is a lot of people in PRC probably don't care less about this. I had even read a piece of news about some people living in the PRC who actually support Taiwan to go independent. So don't tell me that it is fake, and don't tell me that this kind of thinking doesn't exist in Mainland China at all. This is not convincing.

another ppl said:
don't address the thing the way like one country surrender to another country,
it's one country.

Hey, man, let's face the fact, ok? And don't put the earplug and go and steal the bell, assuming that you don't hear the bell ringing, so everyone in this world won't hear it as well.

I know, constitutionally, it is one country. But from 1949 till now, it physically existed as two countries, just like North and South Korea. They are physically two countries, don't tell me they are one country. This is a fact. Not being constitutionally recognized by most of the countries in the world doesn't deprive them of the right to exist. It is only a language game. When it comes to daily life, who cares? When we say we want to go to China, it means PRC and not Taiwan, right? When we say we want to go to Taiwan, we mean Taiwan island, and not China, right? Let's recognized this fact, so it is two countries physically.

One of the reason, why the deadlock existed is because both sides are so stubborn that they don't want to recognize the FACT. Maybe if they recognize that the tension could be easy, they can even follow the Koreans and form a joint team in the Olympics game. Sound nice right, there will be less tension in the world, and also good for the Chinese on both sides.

The Korean and german claimed that there is only one Korea and one german, but they recognize that the country is actually separated into 2. This recognition doesn't really hinder them from being one country. In fact, it helps them to progress.

Wonder if anyone ever thought about the impact on the life of both sides of the people after they got united?

another ppl · 4 Sep 2004

seasurfer said:
It seems that people from the PRC used to think that it is the Taiwanese that wants to separate.

then r they forced to or wad?
The idea of separation doesn't come from me.

seasurfer said:
I wonder if anyone from the PRC ever thought of this before. If the people living in PRC do not want Taiwan to be part of China, and people in Taiwan want to be part of China...what will happen then? The fact is a lot of people in PRC probably don't care less about this. I had even read a piece of news before regarding some people living in PRC actually support Taiwan to go independent. Don't tell me that it is fake, and don't tell me that this kind of thinking doesn't exist in Mainland China at all. This is not convincing.

Of course, there will be ppl like that.
There r 13 billion ppl there; as u have told me last time,
u expect them to have the same idea?
That'll be terrible.

the thinking u mentioned exists,
supported by not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 ....but of course much more than that number of ppl.

But what matters is that it is not the mainstream thinking.
The majority ppl don't think like that.

when predominantly majority of ppl think alike,
shall we ignore or take less consideration of the opposite ideas from the rest few?

Is this convincing?

seasurfer said:
Hey, man, let's face the fact, ok? And don't put the earplug and go and steal the bell, assuming that you don't hear the bell ringing, so everyone in this world won't hear it as well.

I know what u r trying to translate from the Chinese saying,
but, beg u,
can u not pick out my conclusion from what all I said, and say my conclusion is not relevant, not supported?
that makes me feel v frustrated as if my argument fails me badly,
through I know I'm not v gd at it probably.
just show a bit of patience reading what I have written,
n if u want to rebuke, prove me where I am wrong,
instead of describing me as something else, okay?

seasurfer said:
I know, constitutionally, it is one country. But from 1949 till now, it physically existed as two countries, just like North and South Korea. They are physically two countries, don't tell me they are one country. This is a fact. Not being constitutionally recognized by most of the countries in the world doesn't deprive them of the right to exist. It is only a language game. When it comes to daily life, who cares? When we say we want to go to China, it means PRC and not Taiwan, right? When we say we want to go to Taiwan, we mean Taiwan island, and not China, right? Let's recognized this fact, so it is two countries physically.

is everything a fact?

China is constitutionally one country, I c that. U got it correct.

And in reality, what makes a country one country involves, ethnic groups, shared cultures, common history...but not personal opinions, rite?
So, what ideas u apply in daily life cannot be referred to as something that makes a country one country, right?
Furthermore, "we" refers to ppl from....?
Including me?

seasurfer said:
One of the reason, why the deadlock existed is because both sides are so stubborn that they don't want to recognize the FACT. Maybe if they recognize that the tension could be easy, they can even follow the Koreans and form a joint team in the Olympics game. Sound nice right, there will be less tension in the world, and also good for the Chinese on both sides.

the Fact here u mean u suppose the country should be two countries?
Then are u saying the ROC side is stubborn n doesn't recognise this Fact that itself is a country different from PRC?
So what does this mean?
U mean ROC n PRC is seeking for a course that claims the country exclusively?
Ooh, then how tension be eased? How sounds nice?
I think I didn't get what u mean here.

Joint team?
Sum the gold medals n match the US?
Gd idea,
but how?
Recognising the Fact?
Make u points here clear pls.

seasurfer said:
The Korean and german claimed that there is only one Korea and one german, but they recognize that the country is actually separated into 2. This recognition doesn't really hinder them from being one country. In fact, it helps them to progress.

is this fact?
The fact always places itself in an unassailable position.

I'm not to distract what u said in this post,
but really, I didn't get ur point sometimes.

So overall, are u saying that to maintain the status quo, one country constitutionally, a not-like-one country, in reality, is ur choice of solving the problem?

bossel · 4 Sep 2004

another ppl said:
the principles that imply goodness, justice and morality will always be there.

I wouldn't call threatening with war as a principle implying goodness, justice & morality.

robbed items belong to the robber?
Do stolen items belong to the theft?
They just possess them as long as justice hasn't punished them.
Taiwan belongs to Taiwan Chinese as well as Mainland Chinese.
Taiwan never belongs to those group of ppl who r taking it away.

Who exactly is the robber?

u don't have the right to demand any Chinese to do anything, as long as we don't claim our piece of land as the Eleventh Planet, n propel it into another place of e Galaxy.

By which you are saying that the Taiwanese want to propel Taiwan into outer space?

it is both my reliability n compulsion to show my disapproval towards Taiwan independence, for the goodness of the whole nation, since Taiwan independence harms the nation as a whole.

Reliability & compulsion, hmm? OK, I probably understand what you mean.
But really, in which way does Taiwanese independence harm the PRC?

I don't mean anything else
but just have this question,
suppose u were born to be a Chinese (whether Mainland or Taiwan u can choose), do u want to split the country?
or when u split it, do u feel any sense of guilt towards ur ancestors who kept those so-much-loved everything for u, who are believed to have seen the weakening of the nation from somewhere, n who feel sad?

The country is already split. For not being Chinese, I cannot really answer your question, though. It all depends on the circumstances of your upbringing.
But regarding Chinese ancestors, I can safely say that I very probably wouldn't feel guilty. For, most of them wouldn't have seen Taiwan as a part of China, anyway. Even after 1683 (when Western Taiwan was annexed), most Chinese probably didn't care very much about some island that the Manchus conquered.

CCP likes to compromise as long as Taiwan does not declare independence.

Oh please! That's not really a compromise. That would be simply Taiwan submitting to PRC demands. A compromise is something where both sides give in a bit, not just one side.

I c compromise as the only peaceful solution.

I prefer a peaceful solution in either case.

I wonder whether the CCP can save it from something like a spontaneous war of people when the situation worsens, even if it decides not to declare war.

Spontaneous? If there will be war, it will very probably originate from the PLA under tight (well, really?) control of the CPC. They are exercising pretty often for this spontaneous war, building their abilities for amphibious warfare heavily in recent years.

another ppl said:
is this fact?

Actually, speaking for Germany, I can say that it is a fact. Most Germans (at least in the West) had already accepted being 1 nation with 2 countries. Almost all were very surprised when the GDR broke down so suddenly & nobody expected re-unification to happen so quickly (& many even wanted to stay separated, at least for a while). Actually, you could even say that the German people are still spread over several countries (depending on the definition of German).

sima_yi said:
I mean, we are not even Chinese.......Why don't we let the Chinese ppl in this forum work out a solution?

Just as most people here are interested in Japan, I'm also interested in China & everything related.

sima_yi · 4 Sep 2004

yeah, showing some interests is good, but don't get too into it. For it is not the problem to stick our noses in. As I say, let the Chinese and Taiwanese ppl to work on their solution, since I think you don't understand Chinese cultures as much as Chinese people do. It is their problems, we should respect their abilities to solve it; most of families don't want outsiders to mess around with their families' problems.

another ppl · 4 Sep 2004

bossel said:
I wouldn't call threatening with war as a principle implying goodness, justice & morality.

Then does the good fight the evil?
Does the good always defeat the evil?
Do we approve of this rite?
We teach these to children through fable stories,
n help them to understand the terms like goodness, justice n morality, rite?

Speaking of war in reality,
of course, we don't expect one side to be the whole of the God-blessed,
and the other side all the damned evil. That's why war is alwiz the last option for ppl who see the destructive natures in it.
That's also why I'm reserved to say war btw Mainland n Taiwan is rightful.
I only say splitting a country is against the principles implying goodness, justice, n morality.

bossel said:
By which you are saying that Taiwanese want to propel Taiwan into outer space?

hello, u didn't get wad, I mean.
I say,
Taiwan wants independence. Taiwan belongs to all Chinese. Two factors give rise to Chiese not allowing Taiwan independence.
u say,
China belongs to the earth,
which gives u the right to demand us to do whatever u didn't say.
I object, saying,
China never wants to be away from earth, so u cannot do it...

u started using analogies,
but just don't mix all the cases,
that'll be not appropriate.

bossel said:
Reliability & compulsion, hmm? OK, I probably understand what you mean.
But really, in which way does Taiwanese independence harm the PRC?

Taiwanese independence harms China; tt's what I said.
u have qst on this?

bossel said:
The country is already split. For not being Chinese, I cannot really answer your question, though. It all depends on the circumstances of your upbringing.
But regarding Chinese ancestors, I can safely say that I very probably wouldn't feel guilty. For, most of them wouldn't have seen Taiwan as a part of China, anyway. Even after 1683 (when Western Taiwan was annexed), most Chinese probably didn't care very much about some island that the Manchus conquered.

I'm ignorant of history, sory for tt.
Ppl didn't see the importance of land at that time yet, probably.
Or is it Taiwan was not of importance considering its backwardness,
n didn't draw much attention from them?

maybe 'guilty' is not the right term to use,
but really, I feel I just cannot decide to do something that changes what is left by ancestors,
I think I should try my best to keep it intact.

Btw, is Taiwan considered as part of China for sure when Chiang Kai-shek landed on it?

bossel said:
Oh please! That's not really a compromise. That would be simply Taiwan submitting to PRC demands. A compromise is something where both sides give in a bit, not just one side.

I only say CCP is likely to make compromises, or making compromises on one side.
gd intentions are there,
of course, compromise will not be achieved without actions from both sides,
without ROC participating.

Submitting to PRC demands?
Actually, every demand relevant in the context of ROC will be considered by PRC, as long as ROC not claiming independence.
What PRC demand?
they even agree on ROC as another version of China
(of course, making international recognition is another thing)
what they demand is basically only One China.

bossel said:
Spontaneous? If there will be war, it will very probably originate from the PLA under tight (well, really?) control of the CPC. They are exercising pretty often for this spontaneous war, building their abilities for amphibious warfare heavily in recent years.

in this case
I was making my supposition as I used the words 'i', 'wonder', 'if'.
I didn't say the war will be a spontaneous war of ppl, right?
And what all I want to address in this sentence is that Taiwan independence is agst the general public will.

Of course, PLA is exercising, n preparing for a war,
n most probably u know this well n don't need me to add further,
but is PLA the only army that exercises pretty often, building war capabilities?
Taiwan army doesn't exercise?
They don't buy arms from the US or Japan, probably?
Both sides are responding towards each other. Neither side intends to lose the war, speaking for the armies only.

bossel said:
Actually, speaking for Germany, I can say that it is a fact. Most Germans (at least in the West) had already accepted being 1 nation with 2 countries. Almost all were very surprised when the GDR broke down so suddenly & nobody expected re-unification to happen so quickly (& many even wanted to stay separated, at least for a while). Actually, you could even say that the German people are still spread over several countries (depending on the definition of German).

The mindsets of ppl are diff.
My impression is that Europeans like separation.
From ancient Athens' time till now, their civilizations are in parts.
They exist as separate countries and prosper.
They are used to separation.
While Orientals prefer unification.
We alwiz see the unification of the Central Plane as a much-appreciated deal.
We prosper as a unity. That's our tradition.

Besides, nationalism comes and goes in turns.
Germans do not hail the idea of unification, because they somehow overdid it in the past.
Chinese are desperate for the idea of unification because recent history has shown them that they must stick together, to overcome those external threats.
I can say this much better in Chinese, fen jiu bi he, he jiu bi fen,
u can ask ur gf.

Abv ideas are my explanation for why Germans tolerate separation much more than the Chinese do.
Forgive me for my ignorance in this.

seasurfer · 5 Sep 2004

another ppl said:
. Taiwanese independence harms China; tt's as I said.
u have qst on this?

Bossel, what he says actually holds some trues. In my opinion, Taiwan independence will harm mainland China to a certain extent.

Things that need to be considered:

1. Tibet and Xinjiang want independence as much as Taiwan wants independence.

2. If CCP were to grant Taiwan independence, I believe many people will use this to pressure the CCP to grant independence to Tibet and Xinjiang.

3. Maybe inner Mongolia will want independence too.

4. If this chain reaction of independence were allowed to happen, china will certainly lose many resources, lands, and important strategic positions.

5. It will possibly cause the whole Chinese race to disintegrate. If you study Chinese history, you will know that, Chinese is defined as the 56 races in China. It is not a single race theoretically. It was defined during the time of the Republic of China by Dr Sun Yet Sen. The major ethnic group is Han, but today, no one will probably call them Han. Everyone is called Chinese, whether you are a Manchurian or Han.

6. Chinese will probably start to question their own identity, don't forget that Taiwan basically holds a critical position in the Chinese history and culture. The Republic of China is there now, and they preserve a lot of tradition and history artefacts that formed a very huge portion of the Chinese culture and history. That is why if you want to study Chinese history and culture, going to Taiwan is a must. Going to China alone will only help you to understand part of it, but definitely not all.

7. Although Taiwan is a small island. It will hold an important military strategic position in wartime. A loss of it means that the Chinese will probably be in a less favourable position during a war that involves the Pacific.

The impact of this on the whole world has to be considered as well:

1. China economy is growing at a tremendous rate. At this rate, it basically affects most of the country in the world. Already, Japan and Korea economy is highly dependent on China. So it is just a matter of time before China will take over the US as the major economic power, if nothing happens to them. If Bush's policy is going continue to antagonize those Islamic terrorists.

2. The world market will certainly be disrupted if China is not moving anymore.

3. The North and South Korea situation might change if there is a change in the balance of power right now.

In my opinion, anything that changes China's status quo for the worse will somehow affect many people's lives. Especially those countries that trade of a lot with China.

another ppl said:
I'm ignorant of history, sory for tt.
Ppl didn't see the importance of land at that time yet, probably.
Or is it Taiwan was not of importance considering its backwardness,
n didn't draw much attention from them?

maybe 'guilty' is not the right term to use,
but really, I feel I just cannot decide to do something that changes what is left by ancestors,
I think I should try my best to keep it intact.

btw, is Taiwan considered as part of China for sure when Chiang Kai-shek landed on it?

That is because there is no concept of nationalism before the establishment of the Republic of China. It was a dynasty or an empire, after all. To most of the Han ethnic at that time, as long as the employer is not a Han, it means that they lost their land. At that time, having an additional land or losing a small land doesn't really mean anything at all. Because it is so common throughout Chinese history, one emperor lost a small land today, 10 years later he probably got another big one...or 10 years later the emperor change and the borderline got redefined again or got a new tribute...everything was decided by the emperor. The emperor can also give land away, because all the land within his border is his property, not the citizen property. If he wants to give it away, no one can say a single word, or else you will lose your head. That is why there is no "country concept".

another ppl said:
I can say this much better in Chinese, fen jiu bi he, he jiu bi fen,
u can ask ur gf.

Yeah, since you know how to use this proverb, you should recognise that there are two countries on each side of the Taiwan Strait. So, as in my opinion, it will actually help its progression to unification, just as what your proverb means.

another ppl said:
I only say CCP is likely to make compromises, or making compromises on one side.
Gd intentions are there. Of course, compromise will not be achieved without actions from both sides,
without ROC participating.

The fact is that, both sides, not one side cause the deadlock. CCP is not willing to compromise on the fact that they are the sole ruler of China. At least, not at this moment. Basically, people in Taiwan want democracy. They don't want that undemocratic CCP. That is why that one-country-two-system kind of thing came out. However, most Taiwanese people don't want this system. It is either to get united and become one country, one system or remain status quo or go independent. That one-country-two-system kind of thing is humiliating to them. They are not colonies like Hong Kong or Macau. It doesn't really suit them. But stubborn CCP insists on that. At least that is their propaganda to the world now.

bossel · 6 Sep 2004

another ppl said:
then does the good fight the evil? Does the good always defeat the evil? Do we approve of these rites?

Aside from the fact that I don't believe in "good vs evil", I approve of violence/fighting only in case of direct self-defence (IE when you are physically attacked).

u started using analogies,
but just don't mix all the cases. That'll be not appropriate.

OK, I rephrase it: By which you say that Taiwanese want to navigate Taiwan to America? Just kidding, don't be offended!

Taiwanese independence harms China, tt's what I said. u have qst on this?

Actually, yes, I had. But Seasurfer thankfully answered it.

im ignorant of history. Sorry for tt.

That's sad. As people say: If you don't know history, you can't understand the present.

By the way, is Taiwan considered as part of China for sure when Chiang Kai-shek landed on it?

I think so, although I don't know what the Taiwanese themselves thought at the time. Feb 1947 was well remembered back then.

and what all I want to address in this sentence is that Taiwan independence is agst the general public will.

The public will, hmmm. So you're all for democracy, then?

they don't buy arms from the US or Japan, probably?
both sides are responding towards each other. Neither side intends to lose the war, speaking for the armies only.

True, but I see a huge difference in preparing for an offensive war vs preparing for a defensive war.

we prosper as a unity. that's our tradition.

Looking back in time, in what is now China happened the same as in most parts of the world. Growing & shrinking, unifying & separating.

abv ideas are my explanation for why Germans tolerate separation much more than Chinese do.
forgive me for my ignorance in this.

There is nothing to forgive. It's perfectly OK for you to have an opinion about this. Although I would like you to be more interested in history, but that's your personal choice.

seasurfer said:
Bossel, what he says actually holds some trues. In my opinion, Taiwan independence will harm mainland China to a certain extent.

Good points you make. But, as you noticed, I'm not really against independence movements.
Although I have to admit that formal Taiwanese independence could (!, I'm not sure that it would) harm China in respect to independence movements & the related loss of resources.

Yet, I disagree that this necessarily harms China. On the contrary, apart from the loss of resources & face (which is probably more important to the Chinese), it might actually strengthen China. With the best infrastructure and most of the industry, the most populated parts of China, with the best infrastructure & most of the industry, will remain. What're more, current & potential centres of conflict (German "Konfliktherde") would be gone. This will even free resources & the workforce.

I see the effects on the world economy, though. If reduction to a core-China came peacefully, it wouldn't pose much of a problem. But knowing human beings (& Chinese communist nationalists in particular), this seems improbable. Hence we can only hope for a bit of rationality on all sides.

another ppl · 7 Sep 2004

bossel said:
Aside from the fact that I don't believe in "good vs evil", I approve of violence/fighting only in case of direct self-defence (IE when you are physically attacked).

U don't you believe in good versus evil?
Because u r not confident with that?

what abt when a criminal resisting the police,
do u approve of the criminal?

bossel said:
OK, I rephrase it: By which you are saying that Taiwanese want to navigate Taiwan to America? Just kidding, don't be offended!

u know they cannot do that without US help.

bossel said:
Actually, yes, I had. But Seasurfer thankfully answered it.

he got a lot of ideas indeed,
but what I mean is basically disintegration causes harms.

bossel said:
That's sad. As people say: If you don't know history, you can't understand the present.

I'm ignorant of history in comparison to many of u here
so I don't expect myself the best understanding of the present
what I do is to keep my limited understanding not going wrong badly
n I think this is possible

bossel said:
I think so, although I don't know what the Taiwanese themselves thought at the time. Feb 1947 was well remembered back then.

locals didn't resist KMT?
What happened in Feb 1947?
so nobody objected to Taiwan being part of China at that time?

bossel said:
The public will, hmmm. You're all for democracy, then.

Ppl hail democracy when they can do that.
Democracy comes spontaneously n gradually with a progressing society.

bossel said:
True, but I see a huge difference in preparing for an offensive war vs preparing for a defensive war.

R u blaming the strong for the fact that it is strong?

besides, r we offensive because we want to keep our territorial integrity,
or r they defensive because the political party is fighting for its existence?

bossel said:
Oh well, looking back in time, in what is now China happened the same as in most parts of the world. Growing & shrinking, unifying & separating.

but our history tells us that peace n progress comes with unity,
while separation means wars n disasters.
that's why we appreciate unity,
n exists as a unity at large through most of the times.

bossel said:
There is nothing to forgive. It's perfectly OK for you to have an opinion about this. Although I would like you to be more interested in history, but that's your personal choice.

thx for ur suggestions,
not that I'm not interested in history,
but I like other subjects more than history.

bossel said:
Good points you make. But, as you noticed, I'm not really against independence movements.
Although I have to admit that formal Taiwanese independence could (!, I'm not sure that it would) harm China in respect to independence movements & the related loss of resources.

Yet, I disagree that this necessarily harms China. On the contrary, apart from the loss of resources & face (which is probably more important to the Chinese), it might actually strengthen China. With the best infrastructure and most of the industry, the most populated parts of China, with the best infrastructure & most of the industry, will remain. What're more, current & potential centres of conflict (German "Konfliktherde") would be gone. This will even free resources & the workforce.

I see the effects on the world economy, though. If reduction to a core-China came peacefully, it wouldn't pose much of a problem. But knowing human beings (& Chinese communist nationalists in particular), this seems improbable. Hence we can only hope for a bit of rationality on all sides.

The face is a special term for the Chinese. We lost our face during the years when being invaded by almost all western countries, n is called a nation of cowardice.
We are still losing our face when showing submissiveness in diplomatic affairs, n when foreigners not really taking the ppl seriously.
What now we want is a strong China n to save our face.
Are we wrong in saving our face?

I don't know what u mean by saying the best infrastructure & most of the industry will remain.
You probably u forget it is one nation.
And there r ppl, like me, not living within the region where the best infrastructure n industries are located.
What shall I do then?

There is one nation only. Therefore, separation of any part of it will not be appropriate.

bossel · 7 Sep 2004

another ppl said:
u don't believe in good versus evil?
Because u r not confident with that?
What abt when a criminal resisting the police? Do u approve of the criminal?

That depends on the situation. Police are not always right just for being police.

locals didn't resist KMT?
what happened in Feb 1947?

Are you serious? You don't know what happened in Feb 47?
From the Taiwan timeline:
"1947: Chinese rule brought widespread corruption to the government, chaos to society, and run-away inflation to the economy. On February 28, a generalized uprising ensued. Chiang Kai-shek responded by sending in troops from China and conducting ruthless suppression. As a result, thousands of Taiwanese, most of them innocent, were massacred."

r u blaming the strong for the fact that it is strong?
besides, r we offensive because we want to keep our territorial integrity,
or r they defensive because the political party is fighting for its existence?

I don't understand the last sentence.
There is a large difference between aggressive warfare (e.g. an invasion, which the PLA exercises) & defensive warfare (e.g. the defence against an invasion, which the Taiwanese army practices).

but our history tells us that peace n progress comes with unity,
while separation means wars n disasters.
that's why we appreciate unity,
n exist as a unity at large through most of the times.

Not really. The Qing empire was "united", yet it became weaker & weaker. Often particles can thrive better than a large mass.

we are still losing our face when showing submissiveness in diplomatic affairs, n when foreigners not really taking the ppl seriously.
What now we want is a strong China n to save our face.
are we wrong in saving our face?

But there are different ideas of the face. For example, in the West, China actually loses face by its hart stance, e.g. in Tibet.

I don't know what u mean by saying the best infrastructure & most of the industry will remain.
You Probably u forget it is one nation.
And there r ppl, like me, not living within the region where the best infrastructure n industries are located.
what shall I do then?

In a democratic environment, that wouldn't pose much of a problem, since you would have freedom of movement. Anyway, as I said, if separation happens peacefully, there wouldn't change very much for the individual (esp. if a sort of a confederation could be formed).
Infrastructure & industry: they are best developed respectively concentrated in those parts that I'd call core-China.

do u accept any?
or are we still discussing all?

I accept your opinion as your opinion, nothing more or less. However, acceptance doesn't mean that people have to agree.
I suppose, we have to agree to disagree.

another ppl · 7 Sep 2004

bossel said:
That depends on the situation. Police are not always right just for being police.

when the police are right,
do u approve of criminal resisting the police?

bossel said:
Are you serious? So you don't know what happened on Feb 47?
From the Taiwan timeline:
"1947: Chinese rule brought widespread corruption to the government, chaos to society, and run-away inflation to the economy. On February 28, a generalized uprising ensued. Chiang Kai-shek responded by sending in troops from China and conducting ruthless suppression. Thousands of Taiwanese, most of them innocent, were massacred."

So that's why Chiang Kai-shek lost to CCP soon after.
Maybe I should have heard abt this before,
but I have not.
it seems that the only date in history I can RMB is Oct 1, 1949.

bossel said:
I don't understand the last sentence.
There is a large difference between aggressive warfare (e.g. an invasion, which the PLA exercises) & defensive warfare (e.g. the defence against an invasion, which the Taiwanese army practices).

when conflict occurs,
two sides are involved; the strong side will be offensive while the weak side will be defensive.
The different stances during the war do not say anything abt which side is rightful. None just can blame the strong side, because it is strong and offensive.

step forwards doesn't mean invasion,
still, we regard it as a civil war,
in civil war, we don't call it invasion rite?

I don't know whether u have realised that,
if Taiwan army is much stronger than PLA,
they would have fought back to Mainland already.

What I mean in my last sentence is that,
the current situation is like a civil war, but still, diff from a civil war.
so many yrs after Chiang Kai-shek escaped to Taiwan island,
KMT has become obviously no match to CCP,
and when they changed the capital city of ROC from Nanjing to Taipei,
n when they decided not to return to Mainland,
they are fighting for the ruling position of the country no more.
The civil war ended in this sense.
Then what is left of KMT, is a group of ppl favour the idea of separation,
as by that they can hold their political positions on the island that do not belongs to them exclusively.
So they are separatist fighting for their existence.
U get wad, I mean?

bossel said:
Not really. The Qing empire was "united", yet it became weaker & weaker. Often particles can thrive better than a large mass.

ya, in our history, every empire became weaker n weaker,
and ate worst of times, the unity was unable to keep it intact and fell apart,
war broke out for grabbing the cental power,
peace n normal life would not come until a new empire got established.

so u see,
not that particles cannot thrive better,
but particles do not make sense to us,
we always regard the whole chunk of land as one country,
once the country fall parts,
we see it as not appropriate,
n war will only stop,
when someone brings all the parts together again,
n when we consider it as normal.

unity does not guarantee ever-lasting prosperity,
but for us, the worst is when unity falls apart.

bossel said:
But there are different ideas of the face. In the West, China actually loses face by its hart stance, e.g. in Tibet.

the face doesn't mean to show submissiveness n making oneself popular amongst the group of not-all-friends.

bossel said:
In a democratic environment, that wouldn't pose much of a problem, since you would have freedom of movement. Anyway, as I said, if separation happens peacefully, there wouldn't change very much for the individual (esp. if a sort of a confederation could be formed).
Infrastructure & industry: they are best developed respectively concentrated in those parts that I'd call core-China.

Freedom of movement?
so I wouldn't be contained in the backwater,
n still I can travel?

why u like making prospects of splitting my country so much,
while u and other Europeans at homes are actually trying to work together?

bossel said:
I accept your opinion as your opinion, nothing more or less. However, acceptance doesn't mean that people have to agree.
I suppose, we have to agree to disagree.

Ya, I get the answer more or less already.
That's why I re-edited my post n deleted that qst.
But u seemed to have replied v fast.

Disagree doesn't cause conflict?

bossel · 9 Sep 2004

another ppl said:
when the police are right,
do u approve of criminal resisting the police?

That still depends on the behaviour of the police, but under normal German circumstances, the criminal would have not much reason to resist.

when conflict occurs, two sides are involved. The strong side will be offensive, while the weak side will be defensive. the different stances during the war do not say anything abt which side is rightful,

But it says a lot which part of warfare you exercise before a war.

I don't know whether u have realised that,
if the Taiwan army is much stronger than PLA,
they would have fought back to Mainland already.

That is alternative history.

then what is left of KMT, is a group of ppl favour the idea of separation, as by that they can hold their political positions on the island that do not belongs to them exclusively. So they are separatist fighting for their existence. u get wad, I mean?

Not really. The KMT is not in power in Taiwan. It's the DPP. The KMT still favours the old one-China policy, while the DPP steers more toward independence, AFAIK.

we always regard the whole chunk of land as one country, once the country fall parts, we see it as not appropriate, n war will only stop, when someone brings all the parts together again, n when we consider it as normal.

History? War didn't necessarily stop when the country was "united", nor was the times of "separation always the least prosperous."

why u like making prospects of splitting my country so much,
while u and other Europeans at homes are actually trying to work together?

Prospects of splitting your country? :? You mean like, "I'm in favour of separation?"
Then you're mistaken. I don't really care if there is one big chunk or several smaller chunks. What I'm all for is the choice of the people. If Taiwanese want to be separated, then be it.

BTW, an update regarding German unification: a recent poll showed that 21% want to be separated again.

disagree doesn't cause conflict?

Why should it? Usually, only idiots (or people with too strong emotions) start a fight over a disagreement. You can disagree strongly with people & still be friends. Several of my friends call themselves communist, while I am anti-communist, not much of a problem.

shiroma · 30 Sep 2004

update

名無し said:
Related (old) news: Multi-billion-dollar Oil and Gas Deals Clinched (People's Daily)

Shell, UNOCAL Exit China's Disputed Gas Project] (Kyodo)

CNOOC to Develop Gas Field without UNOCAL, Shell (Bloomberg)

Japan China dispute over islands.

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