Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII

[Hiroshi66]

Can someone please translate what was said by kkt above?

 

[sabro]

Every country needs to get real with History.

History is often just the stories we tell children to make them feel good about the past. I would urge a much harder edged and challenging task that makes children think critically about the present and future. Give them historical tools and all the various and conflicting accounts, all the facts (warts and all), original documents, testimony from witnesses, and the methodologies and background information needed to make up their own minds.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Every country needs to get real with History.

History is often just the stories we tell children to make them feel good about the past. I would urge a much harder edged and challenging task that makes children think critically about the present and future. Give them historical tools and all the various and conflicting accounts, all the facts (warts and all), original documents, testimony from witnesses, and the methodologies and background information needed to make up their own minds.

I want to be a history instructor, and I think that students just aren't being challenged enough with history. Lecture is important, but free discussion is as well. Instead of lecturing on the different accounts of the Nanjing massacre, students should discuss what they believe should occur. History is understood much better through discussion.

 

[kkkktttt]

There is one think you seem not to understand. It's not because I accuse Japan that I do not also accsue Western countries. I accuse any government who haven't dealt with their past properly. I don't mind accusing my own government, because I am not the government. It may be difficult for a Japanese to understand because it has to do with extreme individualism.

たしかに、一般に西洋社会は、日本と比べて個人主義傾向が強いといえると思います。
しかし、日本に個人主義がないわけではありませんし、政府批判は日本でも活発に行われています。

日本は、55年体制の成立以来、わずかな例外を除き一貫して自民党が政権を担ってきましたが、その一方で社会党や共産党が大きな勢力を占めていた時代もあるなど有権者の政治的立場は多様です。

また、自民党の内部でも、複数の派閥が対立しており、しばしば「擬似的な政権交代」が行われます。実際、第二次世界大戦後だけでも、内閣総理大臣経験者は30人近くにも登ります。

“àŠt§“x‚Æ—ð‘ã“àŠt

現在でも、郵政民営化問題を巡って自民党内で激しい対立が見られ、最大野党である民主党の影が薄くなってしまっている有様です。
また、対中国問題に関しても、自民党内の最大勢力である橋本派は一般に親中的で、小泉首相の外交姿勢に対しては批判的です。


おそらく、Ｍａｃｉａｍｏさんは、「ホロコースト」について知っているイギリス人の割合の低さに驚いたことと思います。「加害者としての歴史」ついて調査すれば、その数字はもっと悲惨なものとなるかと思います。
現代は大衆社会ですし、一般市民の教養水準は洋の東西を問わず決して高いものではありません。
まわりの人々の意見だけでは、世論の趨勢が見えてこないこともあると思います。

そこで、日本の世論に大きな影響を与える政治家や評論家などのオピニオンリーダーがどのような議論を行っているのかについて関心を持ってみてはいかがでしょう。
毎週日曜日の午前中には、TV各局で時事討論番組が放映されていますし、話題のテーマについて活発な議論が行われています。

最近では「靖国神社参拝」についても活発な議論が行われています。
私自身は、少なくとも当時の「戦争指導者」の分祀を行うべきであるという立場ですが、
この問題についても、政教分離の問題や、神道の教義問題、個人の宗教の自由の問題、靖国神社の宗教法人としての宗教的自由の問題や歴史問題の他、遺族の意向、中国や韓国と日本の死生観の違いとも絡めて活発に議論がなされています。

少なくとも、「靖国参拝」＝「軍国主義礼賛」といった単純な議論では片づかない問題のようです。（もしそうであるならば、結論は簡単、即刻参拝中断すべきです。）

For me there is no such thing as a group to which I belong, as opposed to the rest of the world (uchi vs soto). I don't even care about my nationality, which is why I don't like mentioning it - it's irrelevant. I can praise or criticise any government, any individual, regardless of their origins. Governments represent the countries. I can blame a government as a whole, without blaming all that country's people. I can blame people I know, or individual politicians as well. I do criticise many politicians in my own country. I praise others. Same for Japan.

確かにあなたは特定の国の出身であることを明らかにはしていませんが、欧州出身であることを全面に出して議論をされていますよね。

そして、歴史問題に関しては、欧州社会は、加害の歴史、反省の態度の両点について、日本よりも倫理的に優位に立っており、したがって日本を「ｓｃｏｌｄ」することができるとおっしゃっています。

わたしは、日本政府の歴史問題に対する対処は不十分であると思っています。この点はこちらでも度々述べてきたつもりです。

しかし、欧州と日本の歴史精算について、倫理的に差があるとも考えていません。ましてや、日本が欧州に「ｓｃｏｌｄ」される立場であるとは思っていません。もちろん、相互に「ｓｃｏｌｄ」しようという主張であれば話は別ですが。

日本と欧州に差があるというのであれば、両者を批判する基準に差があるとしか思えません。

ですから、欧州の事例を出して「ｃｒｉｔｉｃｉｚｅ」し、両者の立場に差があるわけではないことを説明してきたのです。
あなたが日本を批判することに対抗したわけでは全くありません。歴史問題のみならずあらゆる問題について、「公平で公正な批判基準」の「公平で公正な適用」をすべきであるとの立場から私は議論してきたのです。

こちらは日本に関係するサイトですから、日本のことが主題になるのは当然です。
しかし、ある対象を理解しようとすれば、他者との比較が助けになることは、あなた自身が「日本」と「欧米」を度々比較して論じておられることからも明らかだと思います。

そして、比較を用いる以上、比較対象に対する認識が正確でバランスのとれたものであることが必要だと思います。

あなたは、欧州は全体として歴史問題に真摯に向き合ってきたと言っていますね。
私が紹介した記事やサイトで示された事情とは大きく異なっています。この点、実態はどうなのか議論することも、ひいては日本を理解することにつながるのではないでしょうか？

また、そのような議論を通じて、あなた自身に対する他の日本人参加者の誤解が解けるかもしれません。


ちなみに、あなたが右派なのか左派なのかと聞いたのは、植民地支配など帝国主義に対する欧州諸国の歴史的責任についてです。あなたの恋愛観に興味はありません（笑）。
これは、あなた個人についてというよりも、あなたのような立場が欧州全体においてどのような位置を占めるのか興味があったからです。そこから、欧州社会が自らの歴史問題についてどのような態度にあるかおおよその見当がつくと考えたのです。

私が調べた限りでは、植民地支配などに対するあなたの立場は、欧州では右派に属するようなのですが、よろしいですか？

I do not approve of the A-bomb. I said it was probably the right decision for Truman (not me ) to use it so as to avoid an even greater number of casualties. This reasoning in itself is humanist. Is it too hard for you to understand that if fewer people die it is a good thing from a humanistic point of view?

原爆投下を肯定する論理については私もずいぶんと目を通してきたつもりです。

日本でも、原爆投下が日本の敗北宣言を早め、本土地上戦による惨禍やソビエトの侵攻による日本の分断などを防いだなどとして、いわば、「功利主義」的立場からこれを肯定する議論が一部では見られます。

ただし、これらいわゆる原爆投下肯定論が「人道主義」的立場から語られたものをみたことはありません。
欧州で「人道主義」的見地から原爆投下を容認する議論があるならば、是非とも紹介してくれませんか？

もっとも、欧州では「人道主義」と植民地主義などにみられる「人種差別主義」が併存してきた歴史がありますから、私たち日本人の多くが一般に考える「人道主義」とは別物なのかもしれないですね。

 

[Hiroshi66]

Kkktt-san, I know that its not your fault, but its sort of scrappy where one person says something and we can't read the response. Can someone volunteer to translate the basic jist of what's going on?

 

[Maciamo]

Every country needs to get real with History.

History is often just the stories we tell children to make them feel good about the past. I would urge a much harder edged and challenging task that makes children think critically about the present and future. Give them historical tools and all the various and conflicting accounts, all the facts (warts and all), original documents, testimony from witnesses, and the methodologies and background information needed to make up their own minds.

I wonder why you can speak of every country ? Have you studied or taught history at school in like over 100 countries or analysed the curriculum of a large number of countries ? Personally, the history classes I have had at school probably included "much harder edged and challenging task that makes children think critically about the present and future". We did read "original documents, testimony from witnesses, and the methodologies and background information needed to make up their own minds". As I said somewhere before, we also watched documentaries with original films about WWII and other 20th events, and my school organised (voluntary) trips to Auschwitz. We compared the pre-WWI and pre-WWII propaganda in various European countries (even read Main Kampf), and compared testimonies from people who experience these wars from the two sides.

For other periods of history, we also read original documents (eg. comapred the French declaration of human rights of 1789 to the American constitution), or were made to read historical novels treating of a particular problem (if you know Germinal by Emile Zola, about the condition of mine workers in the late 19th century - although this was in French class, not even history).

I don't know how many years and hours of histry is standard in the US. In Japan it seems that history is only compulsory in Junior Highscool, during which time they study mostly the Antiquity, then it becomes optional (people choose between Japanese history, World History or Geography, if I am not mistaken). They also have "Society" classes with a bit of history in primary school. In my school (but I think it is normal in the Benelux and France, maybe also Germany ?), we had our first history classes in 5th grade of primary/elementary school. So 8 years in total, although in the first four the lessons/tests were combined with geography and other humanities (e.g. we also learned about the Greek and Latin roots of modern words in 5th and 6th grade of primary school). The last 4 years of secondary/high school has 2h/week of compulsory history, and 2 more hours of geography/geology/economy. In primary school it was mostly about the Antiquity, the 2 first years of secondary school were more about regional/local history, from the antiquity to the middle ages. Then we had one year for the Antiquity, one for the middle ages, renaisance and early colonisation, one for the 18th and early 19th centuries (including the enlightenment, French & American revolutions, industrial revolution, colonisation of India, etc. + (neo)classic and baroque/rococo arts), and one year for the late 19th to mid-20th century (mostly the two world wars and social changes like the rise of socialism, universal suffrage, women's rights, labour unions, communism, nazism, fascim, etc. + impressionism and expressionim in arts).

The tests always put more emphasis on understanding and critical thinking rather than memory. WE were taught since primary school that "remembering dates is useless as we can find them by opening a book/encyclopedia. The important is to understand what happened and why it happened, so that we learn from our ancestors' mistakes and do not repeat them". We could be asked to write critical essays (in the last 2 years of secondary school), or make a presentation on one topic in front of the class, that would both count in the final score of the year. Exams included analysing original documents that were not studied in class and find who the writer could be, what his/her intention and background might be, etc. just by thinking critically as learned in class. In my school (maybe harder than usual schools), someone with no critical sense would not pass the history exams in the 11th and 12th grade, and therefore could not graduate from school and go to university (as failing a subject had for consequence to repeat that year, and usually be encourage to move to less good schools).

How about the US (or other countries) ?

 

[sabro]

Every country should get real with history- I didn't mean to imply that your country is not. I could write a book about what we need to do in our country to improve history instruction. I was just expressing my humble opinion that real, honest, occasionally hard to look at history is better than the often watered down official version. No insult was intended. Forgive me, I am a High School Vice Principal now.

In the US, History is covered just about every year. In High School, they take one year of World, one year of US, one semester of American government and one semester of Economics. Some of it is great, the rest is just OK. For some reason we don't require any study of Geography after junior high.

 

[Maciamo]

Every country should get real with history- I didn't mean to imply that your country is not. I could write a book about what we need to do in our country to improve history instruction. I was just expressing my humble opinion that real, honest, occasionally hard to look at history is better than the often watered down official version. No insult was intended. Forgive me, I am a High School Vice Principal now.

Sorry, I presupposed that every knew that in principle every country "should get real with history". So I thought you were saying most countries weren't. Anyhow I totally agree with you.

 

[sabro]

Maciamo- No problem- It was just a throw-away gererality like "all children should spend some time playing."- Never meant to imply anything beyond what it says.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Germany and Japan both had an ally which they occupied but which joined the Axis. For Germany, it was Romania, for Japan it was Thailand. Which underwent a more brutal occupation?

 

[bossel]

CNN has a nice article about how Germany deals with its past:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/30/hitler.anniversary.reut/index.html

I don't remember if somebody already told this: how is WWII actually dealt with by the mass media in Japan? Extended coverage (esp. on special dates/anniversaries) or ignorance? Do they give a certain spin to it, or is the coverage more or less objective?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Bossel ~ coverages of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki memorials are always shown on NHK News. Not the whole thing - but it usually is a main story.

 

[lolife]

I think the real horror with Hitlers Germany wasn't the numbers, it was the extensive and very systematical killing.

 

[bossel]

Bossel ~ coverages of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki memorials are always shown on NHK News. Not the whole thing - but it usually is a main story.

I didn't mean only the memorials. If that were the only stuff they brought about WWII (or esp. Pacific war) it would be pretty poor coverage indeed. Here in Germany we have pretty much every week some documentaries (on several channels) about the 3rd Reich. On special occasions, as now, we have some coverage every day (also on several channels).

Today we (only counting the major channels I can watch, only afternoon & evening, only complete shows not features in magazines) have 2 documentaries & 1 movie. & that's just Monday, the weekend was full with this stuff.

 

[Hiroshi66]

What are the plots of your German war movies?

Because I have seen a Japanese war movie, and I wanted to compare the plots.

 

[bossel]

What are the plots of your German war movies?

Most movies aren't German, anyway. The German movie industry is rather small. The movie on Monday was eg. Dutch.

German movies, in general, have a greater focus on the development of characters rather than action. War movies often feature the cruelty of warfare, either psychological or corporeal.

One famous example of German war movies was shown on TV on Sunday:

Die Brücke (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In the final days of World War II, German teenagers join the Nazi army in a futile attempt to stop the enemy invasion. A sympathetic officer places the boys as guards of a seemingly unimportant bridge. The seven youths are thrown into battle when American tanks unexpectedly appear and try to cross the bridge. The film has a definite anti-war message."

This definite anti-war message can be said to be another general feature of German war movies.

 

[Maciamo]

Bossel ~ coverages of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki memorials are always shown on NHK News. Not the whole thing - but it usually is a main story.

That seems pretty normal as Japan was the victim of the A-bomb. It reminds Japanese people that the evil USA used such scary weapons against Japan.

There are however very few TV programmes about Nanking or other war atrocities committed by the Japanese on Japanese TV.

 

[Glenn]

So they do exist? Well, at least they're out there. How rare are they and how rarely do they come on? Do they come on networks or on pay channels?

 

[Maciamo]

So they do exist? Well, at least they're out there. How rare are they and how rarely do they come on? Do they come on networks or on pay channels?

Personally I have never seen any, but I don't watch much TV so I will not claim they don't exist without knowing for sure.

 

[Glenn]

Oh, alright. I thought you had seen at least one.

Has anyone else seen one?

 

[Sensuikan San]

I think the real horror with Hitlers Germany wasn't the numbers, it was the extensive and very systematical killing.

I agree totally.

This was atrocity that was State-sanctioned, State organised, State-run, State recorded and State instigated ... to the smallest detail !

Had they continued, and wiped out the (then) entire "non-Aryan" population - who would have been next? Celts...? Africans...? American and Canadian First Nations ... ? Australian Aborigines ....? .....Asians...?

.....Japanese ...?

ジョン

 

[mad pierrot]

I haven't.

 

[lexico]

Maciamo: Your statistics may be true, however, think about this for a minute. The government of the 1930s and 1940s was a authoritarian, violent, bloody government - the most brutal Japanese government in history. None of the shogunal governments could even stand up to this.

There was forced conscription. Though many Japanese were taught that death is glory, there was still much conscription, especially during the Pacific War and directly before during the China war. The females and children were forcibly taken out of school and made to work for the war effort. Very few Japanese civilians rushed to make weapons or train with bamboo sticks, especially once the fire raids began to occur in 1944.

If the Japanese government revolted during the war against what happened in China - a mass brutal massacre would occur. The 1918 Rice Revolts in Tokyo were still fresh in the minds of many Japanese - the 1936 coup attempt was even fresher. They knew what the Kempetai and the army would do in the event of even a small demonstration.

All very understandable; after all we are civilised people, aren't we ?
First give an inch, then a foot, soon one finds oneself miles away hand-in-hand with the brutal, genocidal, human-vivisecting IJA.
And Dr. Ishii Shiro gleefully carried out his experiments on human subjects in the name of scientific progress !
This is perhaps why, not only the IJ military, but also the gov't, and the people of IJ are blamed along with the spearheads of IJ militarism. No totalitarian gov't/military can successfully carry out its murderous plans without the help of civlian collaborators, and appeal to emotion is illogical, Hiroshi, for resistence was nonexistent, or negligible at best.

 

[Keoland]

I dun care how many ppl died because of mao or others....but I do know that Japanese also guilty...even with apologize it cant be solved because we are talking abut thousands of lives of innocent....the least way we can do is only by PRETENDING TO FORGIVE THE ONE WHO APOLOGIZE....but Japanese not apologize to China...even if mao killed so many people...Japanese also torched and killed a lot a lot of ppl (Indonesia, Malaysia, China,etc) too....And do the jap feel guilty??? I think no..

Speaking about other countries... I note that 梁铠赞 is from Indonesia (possibly from the Hakka Chinese minority). In 1975, Indonesia invaded East Timor* and in the subsequent years, about 600,000 people (1/3 of the total population) was killed.

Also, during the elections for the independence of the territory in September 1999, Indonesian forces and their supporters went berserk and started a slaughter of thousands.

When will Indonesia apologise to East Timor? Does the average Indonesian feel guilty? What is written in Indonesian History books?

While we're at it, the Javanese started many anti-Chinese pogroms... how do you feel about those?

*: And I will skip all the military invasions of their neighbours Indonesia did under Sukarno.

 

[lexico]

*: And I will skip all the military invasions of their neighbours Indonesia did under Sukarno.

Please do not skip, Keoland. Like I said, we can handle whatever you raise as civilised people. Unless you meant insult. ;-)