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isn't it time that japan got a break from its past

pugtm

Jewish Samurai
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it may just be me, but isn't the issue of japan's war crimes being heard about in the news a little too much lately? i know about its history of mistreating pows, and that they were bloody and violent and all and as a Jew i can empathize with all the victims. But by now hasn't their culture evolved past that? I don't see anyone going out nowadays and cutting open their stomachs over minor things. Japan has become a modernized and civilized nation. I don't see anyone still yelling at Germany over what it did, we Jews remember that it happened but we don't constantly harp on it. In fact it is like japan a prosperous member of the international world. Isn't it time to stop beating the dead horse over the head?
I don't think that trying to push the Japanese government into a corner will accomplish anything.
Again I'm just offering my opinion and don't mean to offend anyone. If I'm being stupid or childish please let me know. I'm only 16 after all and still learning.
 
You raise an interesting question, and should be congratulated for sharing your thoughts and opinions here on this particularly difficult and in some cases confusing issue. There are many aspects to this discussion that make it difficult to respond with a straight yes they should or no they shouldn't be "allowed" to let the past stay in the past.

There are many issues that have come up recently because they were never resolved in the era that followed WWII. Part of it stems from the current administration here making attempts to downplay Japan's part in WWII. This angers many in the region outside of Japan.

Japan has become a modernized and civilized nation. I don't see anyone still yelling at Germany over what it did, we Jews remember that it happened but we don't constantly harp on it.
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Sure Japan is modernized, and it truly isnt fair to compare Germany and Japan for the parts that they played in WWII. All the issues about Germany were resolved and laws were created in Germany outlawing pretty much all aspects of Nazism. Germany took a very forward stance and acknowldged it's part in WWII and has done an extremely admirable job of working openly towards healing the wounds of its history. The children are educated fully about it's part in WWII and the holocaust. Things are different here in Japan, and that is a part of a number of other reasons as well that the issue hasnt died.
 
I agree with Obeika. While it would be nice to move on considering its been 62 years now but i also think Japan might need to take a few steps first for that to happen. Mostly now its other countrys politicians bringing this issue back up for their own political reasons E.G. when China wanted to invade Taiwan, Japan who at the time wanted a permanant seat on the UN council but as a member were not allowing China to invade. All of a sudden China demand that Japan be kicked out of their seat because they dont admit to the crimes and they visit their war dead and next thing you know i see 16 year olds protesting on the streets against Japan. Think of your own country and then think of any 16 year old that would do that lol.
basically my opinion is that Japan do need to change some of their ways in order to make peace with the victims but also other countrys need to encourage that in positive ways rather then crying foul anytime it suits them.
 
well actually i have gone to rally and protests before. And a bunch of kid my age turned out a while ago for those big rallies to show support for immigration for Mexico. but i digress.

While its true that japan has not come clean completely first of all what it did is in my opinion nowhere near as bad as what the Germans did though again opinions may vary. Also isn't japan's culture one of difficulty in making face loosing statementSs. o for them to have gone as far as they have is already pretty good. Not to mention i agree with you guys in that i think china and korea use this way too much to agitate the Japanese.

But my main question is at what point would you consider them as having come completely clean. Maybe an official apology and history books standardized?The whole history book issue is retarded in the first place considering that professors here actually write textbooks and then make them required reading for their courses. so of course some idiots somewhere are going to try and rewrite history it happens here all the time(Rosie o donell anyone?) but the majority of Japanese are probably aware that it happened and have moved beyond it.
 
Sorry what i meant by 16 year olds is ones that would protest for something that happened 62 years ago. I think for them to be completely clean would be to settle with all alive victims and to make an offical apology and also acceptance that Japan were responsible for war crimes.
History book wise we know that the winners write the books so its pretty one sided in most cases. What i find cheap is when countries like China complain about war crimes when they have the wrose human rights history going.
 
but the majority of Japanese are probably aware that it happened and have moved beyond it.
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You see that's one part of it as well, many Japanese are not fully aware of the part "their" country played in WWII. It isnt as open as one might think.

There was a time as well in the US that many things from it's past were brushed under the rug as well and it took many many years of painful debate amongst the population for the "blacker" side of US history to be openly discussed and taught in schools. To me at least this is where Japan is today, one side wants to keep things out in the open and teach all sides of the issues regarding the Japanese history surrounding WWII and another side wants to keep it in the dark.

I also agree with both you and frosty that Japan's neighbors in the region play upon some of these issues for their own political gains. It seems too easy to whip up sentiment against the Japanese to gain support for whatever issues that they are supporting.

Maybe an official apology and history books standardized?
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There are those that will say that Japan has already "apologized" enough and need not do any more. But then wounds get reopened because of issues surrounding the PM's yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine. To the neighbors in the region it is a thorn in their side, and they feel to me at least, that actions such as this are indicators of Japanese insensitivity to the feelings of the people in the region.

It would be great that history books be standardized however whose version of "history" is going to be accepted as "historical fact"? Even amongst Japanese people there is no cut and dried solution to this. The people here do not agree totally either. So this is a difficult issue as well.

but also other countrys need to encourage that in positive ways rather then crying foul anytime it suits them.
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True, and if you were the one making the decisions what or how would you encourage Japan to do this?

Of course it is give and take, but everyone seems to be waiting for the other to take the first step before responding positively.

When I was a kid my Dad used to say...."Be a man, admit what you did was wrong and accept the responsibilities" That may work for a 10 year old but on the international level of diplomacy and politics it is naeve to think that the "other" side will accept an explaination that would satisfy everyone. Things are not so simple as too many issues are intertwined together like a rope that can not be untangled without cutting it apart.
 

I see it to be exactly the same case. The whole reason that Japan's involvment will not go away is because they have done almost the opposite of Germany! Why does Japan continue to deny its actions? Why does it have to slowly pick away at the details? Why does it not recognise that the people who were complicient in what are close to being the greatest criminal acts against humanity are evil people?

One of the biggest problems is that Emperor Hirohito got off scott-free. It sent a clear message - if he isn't guilty of anything, then nobody is - because everyone was acting under the authority and orders of the Emperor. This only works to strengthen the arguments of those who say that the war was "right". Blergh
 

It is opposite because they were Just representatives of ppl.
The emperor also followed the decision of the Congress.
ToJo was dismissed in 1944 by congress

about text book
サービス終了のお知らせ
 
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It is not his fault.


I think you should learn more about "Limited Monarchy". Emperor Hirohito didn't make an strong order, like "do this" or " don't do this". If you learn more about him, you will be surprised how strongly he wanted to avoid the war.

Only group who used Emperor Authority to justify their action is Military. Many individual group in Military used it to rationalize they don't obey order from superior officer or government. I think this was systematic issue of Japanese military or government system, and not Emperor Fault.
 
In this day and age, after the dust is well past settling and we're simply talking about ideas and sentiments, the formal apology and healing process is of even greater importance. As has been pointed out, Germany went through great lengths to ensure that they paid pennance for their actions. Japan has not done the same in terms of their current social and political discourse. That is to say, no one can really fault Germany any longer because they've effectively covered themselves against criticism, where as Japan continues to have issues of contention which can be picked at any time China feels it's being affronted. It's fuel for the fire, so to speak.

Likewise, I'm sure China could move on if it wanted to, most of the people there now are far worse-off by means of their own government's lack of environmental control and ongoing human rights violations than any lasting effects of WWII. It's all about political posturing sometimes and one country's ability to play off another.

Furthermore, in comparing Japan and Germany, Chinese lobbyists and interest groups are also traditionally not as strong a force in business and politics as the Jewish lobbyists and interests, and Japan has not faced the same pressure that groups affiliated with anti-semetism have. There isn't a huge stir among the top levels of business and politics when Japan visits their shrine, to the same extent that there would be if a German chancellor suddenly decided to honour dead Nazi soldiers.

And I should add, in saying this I don't suggest that 'Jews own the world' or some conspiratorial nonsense like that, however it's a given fact that relative to other cultural groups, Jewish lobbyists are extremely well-financed, organized, influential and quick to act upon anything that concerns Jewish interests. The same cannot be said for worldwise Chinese interests and the Japanese/Chinese war crimes issue.

So, they're two completely different dynamics despite both states being supported monetarily and militarily by the US. Japan at this point doesn't really have to go beyond what they've already done, and I don't think pressure comes from the people. I think governments drum it up when convenient.
 
But what about the neo-Nazi in Germany?
Is it just because of the sluggish economy in the former East?
If so, I don't know why young Japanese have never attacked Chinese or Koreans for the last 20 year recession.

Books like anti-Korean wave is not a book to bash Koreans, but the one to laugh at Korean chauvinists. And don't worry police here is not the one in China where they kept mysteriously silent againt crimes under the name of patriotism.

Obeika, you know people in Okinawa were arrested because they claimed the reunification before 1972 and our national flag had been a symbol for the reunificaiton in Okinawa, though adovocates in Okinawa now say "no, hinomaru" like the lefty heads in other parts of Japan.
 
Japan needs to say good-bye to its long-conceived ambitions against its facific neighbors before it can truly bid hidtory goodbye.. Japan has to painfully admit that it is only technologically modernised, not culturally or spiritually.
 
pugtm said:
It may just be me, but isn't the issue of japan's war crimes being heard about in the news a little too much lately?
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No, I think it's just you.

pugtm said:
I don't see anyone going out nowadays and cutting open their stomachs over minor things. Japan has become a modernized and civilized nation.
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People don't wear Bowler derbys and sport handlebar mustaches much either--- but this is just called cultural change.

pugtm said:
I don't see anyone still yelling at Germany over what it did, we Jews remember that it happened but we don't constantly harp on it.
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A friend that I work with is Jewish, and I mean Jewish, he wears a silver star of David around his neck and isn't afraid to talk about history. He even expressed the notion that after the economic crash in Germany, the Jewish population were making money, but not putting any into the nation, which seemed to cause some ire amongst the German population. Antisemitism isn't new, and there are no excuses... but it's interesting that a Jewish person (unlike Japan's government) is willing to discuss the situation beyond a one sided manner.

Germany, post world war II has taken great strides at stopping what it considers to be violence and hate crime... They are actively interested (some times to extremes) in preventing what happened during World War II... In preventing a rise in Neo-Nazism.


Still, in Japan, there are no such laws which prohibit "Hate Speech".

pugtm said:
In fact it is like japan a prosperous member of the international world. Isn't it time to stop beating the dead horse over the head?
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Their a member of the G8, but that doesn't necessarily mean their economy is all doing well... In fact, it's kind of in the pits right now. And no, I don't think it's time to stop beating a dead horse... consider the ramifications if Germany itself claimed that the Shoah had never happened?

pugtm said:
I don't think that trying to push the Japanese government into a corner will accomplish anything.
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Many people have written that the progress of Japan culturally would greatly be aided by the admit ion of past actions. Then, I think, Japan could move forward.

Think of it this way... when you do something wrong, (and I'm saying this in the abstract), and it weighs on you, don't you feel better when you make amends for it, even if that just means saying sorry, or admitting you did it... On a more complex level, this is what Japanese historians have to do.

bakaKanadajin said:
And what country WOULD be able to claim that its culturally and spiritually modern?
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Tibet?
 
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bakaKanadajin said:
Although I was leaning towards industrialized nations. If a country with the money and the power to influence other nations had the peaceful demeanour of Tibet that would be truly unique.
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Yes, it seems like all nations are driven by self interests. At the very worst are nations run by tyrants, warlords, what-haveyou... So you have to have to laugh a bit when people sometimes complain that the United States is a theocracy... Religion is used in politics to sway votes, but it's nothing compared to places like Afghanistan.
 

Tell me why you can find Neo-Nazi in Germany, Europe, and your county.
I know the military brothels of yours were race-oriented, but I did not know inter-racial marrige was illegal. Thanks, Obama.
 
pipokun said:
Tell me why you can find Neo-Nazi in Germany, Europe, and your county.
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Because people have illusions that another race is holding them back, when in fact it is their own ignorance.

pipokun said:
I know the military brothels of yours were race-oriented, but I did not know inter-racial marrige was illegal. Thanks, Obama.
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What, and what? When was inter-racial marriage illegal? Military brothels, Obama.... sources please.
 
It will never end because their meaning of exsistence.
Because it was made by Japanese commies..
then China and Korera are using it as a diplomatic card.

even Me, I was taught Japan was worst in school.
How evil Japan was........so on..

commies teacher admired How nice North korea, china....
Heaven is there...
even Asahi NewsPaper told North korea is a Heaven in the earth.

enf of 70', a book about cultural revolution in China came out.
evrybody realized communism was so bad...
commie teacher and commnist can not stand gradually
then Soviet and wall of German were ruined.

However ,Commies started to counterattack for their exsistence.
in tokyo trial, the word of " invasion" was never Used by even american.
they used " Japanese Advance"

that is why "advance to china" was written in text book
the beginig is problem of History text book about " advance" or " invasion"
then commies Lawyer ,They began to look for the evil doing of Japan voluntarily.
as for comfort women, they paid money and requested the faked testimonise.

many of us were realized by taiwanese.
there are a lot of Japanese tourist who were realized by conversation with taiwanese. then after coming back, we started to doubt our History of WAR
there are many old Japanese things inTaiwan that Japan already lost

anyway
Japanese commies and mass media like asahi are our problem.

they will never quit it..
I dont know why foreigners in japan love the commies
their real enemy is USA
 
I think Most of Japanese are very sorry about who died during the Pacific War, so that committed not to start new war ever.

But some people in Japan, Korea, and China are attacking Japanese people because of 60yrs ago tragedy without any evidence, while they are ignoring China's current invasion in Tibet, or Mass killing in North Korea, or Massacre in Darfur.

I think it is typical method of disinformation, because Accusation of 60 yrs ago tragedy will not save any life, while accusation to current massacre will save many life. It is obvious which is more important to the human rights and world peace.

By the way, Japan will apology any bad doing during WWII, if there is proof or evidence. I have never seen evidence or proof regarding Nanking thing and comfort women except skeptical testimony which has been changed too many times.
 
Oh please. You are just trying to cover up one horrible incident by pointing fingers and claiming that other people are doing worse (and aren't even coming close).

Its well established and recorded that these events happened, that innumberable people have testified to these events, both victims and Japanese, but people continue to nitpick the finer details hoping that by doing so it'll divert attention from the big picture.

That just makes me feel sick, how could you even begin to suggest the things you do? (I'm talking about caster, pokemon, and several others know who you are)
 
Hollywood has produced many films about the war in Europe, it has made more than clear that the German government in those days have been extremely cruel to the Jewish people, gipsies, the homo's a.s.o. Thousands of books have been printed about the war in Europe caused by Germany.
We have also seen Willy Brand, Germany's federal chancellor, who knelt down in the former Jewish ghetto in Warchau, Polen. He told the whole how he felt sorry for all those men and women who died by the hands of the German military. This was on the 7th of December 1970.
I don't know what the Germans did during WWII, because I lived in Indonesia???
Well I started reading and listening about this war as from 1947, the book that touched me the deepest was "Holocaust Journey" written by Martin Gilbert. I have read this book 3 times.
In 1995 I started reading about WWII in Asia. My son and Daughter helped to get on with the computer. So I learnt about the Unit 731, slowly but sure I became a researcher in Internet. There are also many good books about the say Paciffic war, most American books, some British and a few Japanese books translated in English.
Films about Hiroshima, that is very logic. That was absolutely horrible.
A film from Hollywood? Of course about Pearl Harbor. But that was just a love story, if I may say so.

The man in the street knows a lot about the war in Europe, seen in the cinema. When you try to tell him that it was really a world war, because Japan attacked and occupied several countries in Asia, they have never heard about that war. Hollywood forgot us all in the East.

When I was 1½ year in America, New York, I noticed that Americans prefer films above books. So that is why I mention Hollywood.
 
I believe that it is impossible for any well known nation to get a break from their past history. People from other countries will always bring up the terrible things another country has done to down play the bad things their country has done. No one ever speaks of the good that has come out of the negative parts of history. I doubt Japan will ever get a break.
 
Goldiegirl, I tried to say, that the world knows almost everything about what the Germans did during World War Two.

About Japan, everybody knows about the A-bombs been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That is one of the differences between the two countries.

Both Germany and Japan started the war. Germany was divided in 4 parts,
after the war. British, American, French and Russian.

Japan came under America's protection because they feared communism from China and worse from Russia.
In 1957 all war criminals were set free in Japan, something that didn't happen to the German war criminals.

In the eyes of the whole world, Japan became a "war victim" because of the A-bobms on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
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