Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?
- Thread starter engalaa
- Start date
- 20 Aug 2003
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pipokun,
Let me pull the last figures from your earlier post.
2004/1611/2
2004 is obviously the year.
What do 1611 and 2 mean? Number of crimes that year (perhaps) and what else?
Let me pull the last figures from your earlier post.
2004/1611/2
2004 is obviously the year.
What do 1611 and 2 mean? Number of crimes that year (perhaps) and what else?
Nobody is saying that a crime rate greater than zero is something to be "proud of". However, since it is half the rate of the Japanese, it shows that the claim that the foreign crime rate by the US military is worse than Japanese is totally false.
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- 20 Aug 2003
- 4,910
- 416
Thanks, pipokun for that explanation.
Now, to be scientific about this whole thing, do you also happen to have data for those years which shows the total number of US forces stationed here? That would give us some indication of whether the higher numbers are due to rowdier soldiers and lax conditions, or due simply to higher numbers of people here. I tried to find that info, but I couldn't.
Now, to be scientific about this whole thing, do you also happen to have data for those years which shows the total number of US forces stationed here? That would give us some indication of whether the higher numbers are due to rowdier soldiers and lax conditions, or due simply to higher numbers of people here. I tried to find that info, but I couldn't.
Why is North Korea considered a threat?
Several posts in this thread say that the American military stationed in Japan protects Japan from N.Korea.
I don't understand why N.Korea is considered a threat to anyone but South Korea. Certainly I agree that the NK leadership is an oppressive regime that has brainwashed its citizens to an amazing degree, and Kim Il Sung is a delusional despot who claims divine provenance. While Dubya claims God speaks through him, KIS claims he is God. I remember an anecdote:
Since WW2, USA has established military bases all over the world, very much in the manner of the ancient Romans, and it seeks to extend its domination, not diminish it. So withdrawing troops from anywhere is out of the question. I used to think of this as 'imperialism' or 'neo-colonialism', like 'USA government is trying to take over the world', but that's wrong too. USA gov. already has taken over the world.
Many US citizens rightly see that all that money, manpower and energy might be better directed at improving things at home (roads, education & healthcare are often mentioned), so imaginary enemies are made up to justify all that armament expenditure.
How many countries has NK invaded since the Korean civil war?
How many countries has USA attacked since WW2?
I would like someone to explain to me why they are afraid of NK.
Several posts in this thread say that the American military stationed in Japan protects Japan from N.Korea.
I don't understand why N.Korea is considered a threat to anyone but South Korea. Certainly I agree that the NK leadership is an oppressive regime that has brainwashed its citizens to an amazing degree, and Kim Il Sung is a delusional despot who claims divine provenance. While Dubya claims God speaks through him, KIS claims he is God. I remember an anecdote:
Foreign aid doctors were treating NK citizens for blindness. As soon as their sight was restored, each patient knelt down and thanked their divine leader for restoring their sight.
Pretty impressive hold over hearts and minds!Since WW2, USA has established military bases all over the world, very much in the manner of the ancient Romans, and it seeks to extend its domination, not diminish it. So withdrawing troops from anywhere is out of the question. I used to think of this as 'imperialism' or 'neo-colonialism', like 'USA government is trying to take over the world', but that's wrong too. USA gov. already has taken over the world.
Many US citizens rightly see that all that money, manpower and energy might be better directed at improving things at home (roads, education & healthcare are often mentioned), so imaginary enemies are made up to justify all that armament expenditure.
How many countries has NK invaded since the Korean civil war?
How many countries has USA attacked since WW2?
I would like someone to explain to me why they are afraid of NK.
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
- 20 Aug 2003
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- 416
You have obviously not kept up with news. NK has abducted Japanese people, spied on Japanese shores, shot at Japanese coast guard boats, and fired long-range missles near and over Japanese shores. Doesn't the fact that NK has a godlike leader with nuclear power at his disposal pose a threat in your mind?
http://www.npa.go.jp/keibi/kokutero1/english/0402.html
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan tracks suspected spy ship
News
http://www.npa.go.jp/keibi/kokutero1/english/pdf/sec04.pdf
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/korea.missile/index.html
http://www.fas.org/news/dprk/1998/wwwh8903.html
The number of death caused by USFJ from 1952 to 2004
559 (off duty)
517 (on duty)
Unfortunately, this official data does not include the situation in Okinawa before 1972.
559 (off duty)
517 (on duty)
Unfortunately, this official data does not include the situation in Okinawa before 1972.
Considering your logic above, I am wondering if the youngsters would show the same 0.8% crime rate in other countries where they station.
NK actions against Japan
I have to admit, I'm not too great at geography, either. Europe/Australia are easy, since I actually lived there, but I actually thought Korea was to the west of China! I had no idea NK/SK were so close to Japan.
Thanks for those links, and giving me some homework, I summarized the ones
that I read: (unfortunately I am banned from posting links)
LINK 1
NK spy boats are suspected of illegally entering the country, at Mihama-cho, Mikata County, Fukui Prefecture in one instance, allegedly to kidnap Japanese nationals (though it doesn't state that kidnapping had in fact occurred, nor does it explain who would be abducted, and to what end).
SW of Kyushu , one of those spy boats exchanged fire with a J patrol boat, so
it does seem serious -- but looks like the coast guard handled it, and "sent the ten crewmembers to the public prosecutors office on allegations of attempted murder and other counts in March 2003." A correct course of action -- the culprits were not charged with 'terrorism' and thrown into some concentration camp, but were prosecuted through legal means.
I am a little puzzled by the final sentence: "we are in a situation in which the activities of spy boats in the waters surrounding Japan could pose an enormous threat to the safety of Japan." odd choice of words -- a nation of 127 million people, with an obviously competent coast guard, is enormously threatened by a few lousy spy boats?
LINK 2
"Although the ship had remained outside Japan's territory, it closely resembled a boat sunk by the Japanese coast guard last December which was also thought to be a spy boat from North Korea.[...] It was spotted 400 kilometres (250 miles) west of the Japanese coast but after Japan sent 15 patrol boats backed by aircraft and a destroyer to chase it, it turned and sped in the direction of Korea."
Weasel words in the BBC article, in order:
"suspected" "venturing towards" "closely resembled" "thought to be" "very similar" "appeared to be" "could be used" "allegedly kidnapped" "unconfirmed reports" "raised the possibility"
Seems the BBC was very unsure of what happened.
"It was spotted 400 kilometres (250 miles) west of the Japanese coast but after Japan sent 15 patrol boats backed by aircraft and a destroyer to chase it, it turned and sped in the direction of Korea."
Again, that's quite a powerful response! Article mentioned "scare", but I think I know which of the two parties had more reason to be scared. ;-)
LINK 3
Now selling drugs and buying weapons technology is added to the spy boat's activities... and a reason for wanting to kidnap Japanese citizens: "They also kidnapped Japanese citizens to teach the Japanese language and customs at spy schools." Makes sense, no Japanese citizen would go to NK voluntarily, that's for sure.
"Last year, the North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il admitted a dozen abductions in the 1970s and 1980s and allowed five Japanese to go home."
LINK 4 - 6
Didn't read the above, all this reading on a penny-conscious CRT is giving me a headache.
NK has been accused of pursuing a nuclear weapons program, by the USA gov. Remember how they had clear, undeniable evidence that Iraq had WMDs?
And now that the USA has destroyed Iraq, it's Iran's turn. US gov. has clear, undeniable evidence Iran is building a nuclear bomb.
Iran wants to build nuclear power plants. There is no evidence whatsoever they have the means or the motivation to build a bomb. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and so is entitled to technical assistance from the International Atomic Energy Agency. NPT also means it has the right to build nuclear power plants for peaceful purposes.
The real danger comes from a nuclear accident -- on 9th Feb 2007, under US pressure, IAEA is ending 22 out of 55 technical cooperation projects with Iran, several of them directly related to nuclear safety.
(source: Najmedin Meshkati, 'Waiting for the next Chernobyl', NewScientist, 14 July 2007)
What 'poses a threat in my mind' is the US government, who has tens of thousands of nuclear missiles at its disposal, pursues a policy of pre-emptive war (or merely 'assertive policing' of the 'provinces', whichever way you look at it), and has restarted the nuclear arms race by installing monitoring stations in Poland and Czechoslovakia, gaining first strike capability against Russia.
The fate of the world hinges on the whims of white house Republicans and congress Democrats who, working hand-in-hand, have suspended habeas corpus and disregarded the Constitution, those fundamental principles of freedom, justice and fair play that US citizens should hold dear -- but apparently do not really care about.
I don't understand how someone can be worried about such trifles as Iran, North Korea or Al Quaida, given what has happened to the US.
I don't want to give in to 'it's just business as usual' cynism. It shouldn't be like this, humanity could do better!
Not as well as you, that's for sure.
I have to admit, I'm not too great at geography, either. Europe/Australia are easy, since I actually lived there, but I actually thought Korea was to the west of China! I had no idea NK/SK were so close to Japan.
Thanks for those links, and giving me some homework, I summarized the ones
that I read: (unfortunately I am banned from posting links)
LINK 1
NK spy boats are suspected of illegally entering the country, at Mihama-cho, Mikata County, Fukui Prefecture in one instance, allegedly to kidnap Japanese nationals (though it doesn't state that kidnapping had in fact occurred, nor does it explain who would be abducted, and to what end).
SW of Kyushu , one of those spy boats exchanged fire with a J patrol boat, so
it does seem serious -- but looks like the coast guard handled it, and "sent the ten crewmembers to the public prosecutors office on allegations of attempted murder and other counts in March 2003." A correct course of action -- the culprits were not charged with 'terrorism' and thrown into some concentration camp, but were prosecuted through legal means.
I am a little puzzled by the final sentence: "we are in a situation in which the activities of spy boats in the waters surrounding Japan could pose an enormous threat to the safety of Japan." odd choice of words -- a nation of 127 million people, with an obviously competent coast guard, is enormously threatened by a few lousy spy boats?
LINK 2
"Although the ship had remained outside Japan's territory, it closely resembled a boat sunk by the Japanese coast guard last December which was also thought to be a spy boat from North Korea.[...] It was spotted 400 kilometres (250 miles) west of the Japanese coast but after Japan sent 15 patrol boats backed by aircraft and a destroyer to chase it, it turned and sped in the direction of Korea."
Weasel words in the BBC article, in order:
"suspected" "venturing towards" "closely resembled" "thought to be" "very similar" "appeared to be" "could be used" "allegedly kidnapped" "unconfirmed reports" "raised the possibility"
Seems the BBC was very unsure of what happened.
"It was spotted 400 kilometres (250 miles) west of the Japanese coast but after Japan sent 15 patrol boats backed by aircraft and a destroyer to chase it, it turned and sped in the direction of Korea."
Again, that's quite a powerful response! Article mentioned "scare", but I think I know which of the two parties had more reason to be scared. ;-)
LINK 3
Now selling drugs and buying weapons technology is added to the spy boat's activities... and a reason for wanting to kidnap Japanese citizens: "They also kidnapped Japanese citizens to teach the Japanese language and customs at spy schools." Makes sense, no Japanese citizen would go to NK voluntarily, that's for sure.
"Last year, the North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il admitted a dozen abductions in the 1970s and 1980s and allowed five Japanese to go home."
LINK 4 - 6
Didn't read the above, all this reading on a penny-conscious CRT is giving me a headache.
No, and my reasoning goes as follows:
NK has been accused of pursuing a nuclear weapons program, by the USA gov. Remember how they had clear, undeniable evidence that Iraq had WMDs?
And now that the USA has destroyed Iraq, it's Iran's turn. US gov. has clear, undeniable evidence Iran is building a nuclear bomb.
Iran wants to build nuclear power plants. There is no evidence whatsoever they have the means or the motivation to build a bomb. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and so is entitled to technical assistance from the International Atomic Energy Agency. NPT also means it has the right to build nuclear power plants for peaceful purposes.
The real danger comes from a nuclear accident -- on 9th Feb 2007, under US pressure, IAEA is ending 22 out of 55 technical cooperation projects with Iran, several of them directly related to nuclear safety.
(source: Najmedin Meshkati, 'Waiting for the next Chernobyl', NewScientist, 14 July 2007)
What 'poses a threat in my mind' is the US government, who has tens of thousands of nuclear missiles at its disposal, pursues a policy of pre-emptive war (or merely 'assertive policing' of the 'provinces', whichever way you look at it), and has restarted the nuclear arms race by installing monitoring stations in Poland and Czechoslovakia, gaining first strike capability against Russia.
The fate of the world hinges on the whims of white house Republicans and congress Democrats who, working hand-in-hand, have suspended habeas corpus and disregarded the Constitution, those fundamental principles of freedom, justice and fair play that US citizens should hold dear -- but apparently do not really care about.
I don't understand how someone can be worried about such trifles as Iran, North Korea or Al Quaida, given what has happened to the US.
I don't want to give in to 'it's just business as usual' cynism. It shouldn't be like this, humanity could do better!
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
America is the modern Nazi Empire. Empires do thrive on nationalism and millitarism. Dr Glennski is a good example of that.
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
.....
..... baseless anti-Yankee crap 
,America's Jews are worldclass number crunchers.
Sukotto
先輩
- 9 Jul 2003
- 1,426
- 20
it's definitely some kind of empire (not benevolent because there is no such thing as a benevolent empire because they dictate to other peoples/nations. and empires are also without honor because of this).
i've heard that people throughout latin america believe the US to be a "modern day Roman empire". and i heard that years before W came to power. one can look up the "dirty wars" in Latin America throughout the post WW2 era to support such people's view.
something such as torture, which immoral as slavery, is often used by empires, so that in itself is not necessarily reason to use the word "nazi".
illegal renditions & disappearances are also nasty things the US has used to support its position in the world.
some of this stuff may actually have been used by some of the nazis the US recruited (and helped escape persecution) after WW2 via Operation Paperclip. hmm? if one copied such stuff from the nazis...that well might make the copiers...
True, we in the US are not taught so many sides of many world issues. We are brought up to believe "our side" is good or even great. But that's not disimilar from many other places. But a lot of the stuff the US gov't does is hidden from us under the cloak of "national security" and the news media does a poor job of informing us. Major media outlets, including local papers (even if they are owned by some giant corporation) do tend to be almost hyper-patriotic (even before W). In the US we are also brought up to be passive observers - we watch a lot of television. I'm not trying to make excuses for people in the US, just trying to explain why.
nationalism and militarism
they both existed well before W, so they are not products of any sort of "national emergency" that might have occurred.
as guests, and "highly disciplined" ones, US troops in another's country shouldn't commit any crimes, period.
Chalmers Johnson in either his "Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" or his "Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Repbublic" says that such crimes as at Okinawa by US soldiers are not the exception at overseas bases, but the rule. Johnson also has hope and suggests that empire could unravel rather quickly, starting anywhere, perhaps at Okinawa. (End of empire, it's been pointed out by many, does not necessarily mean the end of the US. The British & other European empires collapsed, and they still exist as countries.)
Here is a post I made much earlier in this thread and another with responses I got from a few professors in the field on the topic of Okinawans' not particularly caring for US troops' presence.
- 20 Aug 2003
- 4,910
- 416
1) I'm not a doctor, so please leave out the sarcasm if it was intended, and please bring me back to Earth if you didn't know.
2) Please learn to spell people's names right. Mine is only 7 letters.
3) Are you calling me a Nazi? Them's fighting words!
- 20 Aug 2003
- 4,910
- 416
marco,
You seem to brush off all the news I've provided about the potential threat NK poses to Japan, mostly by making fun of newspaper articles. You should know that unless uncontroverted facts are uncovered, reporting is never an exact science, and governements will rarely give all the details.
You also seem relatively naive to what damage " a few lousy spy boats" can do to any country. They can gather information that shows weaknesses in defenses, if nothing else, and that is enough to help pinpoint an attack, whether by nuclear means or otherwise. Moreover, spying is spying and is an underhanded act of one country against another anyway.
So, you don't even consider for a moment that NK's leader has any inkling of using nuclear weapons? Ok, I'm not going to argue with you. The evidence is there that they have the potential technology to make them and to fire them. Say what you want about comparing this to Iran, Iraq, or whatever. We agree to disagree.
But, I don't understand what you mean by the "real danger" being a nuclear accident? An accident at a nuclear plant does not have to result in a nuclear explosion, or didn't you know that? It can mean serious radiation leakage, but the level of damage is small compared to detonating a nuclear bomb just above a city from a missile. Perhaps you are thinking that "real danger" means a greater risk of something happening (accident at a nuclear plant vs. attack with nuclear missiles)...?
You seem to brush off all the news I've provided about the potential threat NK poses to Japan, mostly by making fun of newspaper articles. You should know that unless uncontroverted facts are uncovered, reporting is never an exact science, and governements will rarely give all the details.
You also seem relatively naive to what damage " a few lousy spy boats" can do to any country. They can gather information that shows weaknesses in defenses, if nothing else, and that is enough to help pinpoint an attack, whether by nuclear means or otherwise. Moreover, spying is spying and is an underhanded act of one country against another anyway.
So, you don't even consider for a moment that NK's leader has any inkling of using nuclear weapons? Ok, I'm not going to argue with you. The evidence is there that they have the potential technology to make them and to fire them. Say what you want about comparing this to Iran, Iraq, or whatever. We agree to disagree.
But, I don't understand what you mean by the "real danger" being a nuclear accident? An accident at a nuclear plant does not have to result in a nuclear explosion, or didn't you know that? It can mean serious radiation leakage, but the level of damage is small compared to detonating a nuclear bomb just above a city from a missile. Perhaps you are thinking that "real danger" means a greater risk of something happening (accident at a nuclear plant vs. attack with nuclear missiles)...?
Non sequitur here. We are not talking about Europe and the USA escalating its weapons there. And, Japan prohibits nuclear weapons inside of its borders anyway, so the USA cannot have them at its disposal in Japan, let alone escalate them. You are drifting off topic here.
Again, veering off topic. What you call "trifles", concerning Japan and NK, is what others call a potential fear of immense proportions. But you live safely in Australia, don't you, and admit that you don't know much about this situation. Have you ever lived in Japan?
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
Very nice links and posts. I think I agree with your stance and opinions. The whole notion that US is an Empire. Empires thrive on millitarism and nationalism. Europe had empires across the globe in the 19th century, the Nazis, Japanese, Romans. Today it is US.
More people have negative views on US millitary than positive both in Okinawa and across the globe. And there is a reason for it. USA has a long track record of ignoring international law, suppressing democratic social reform movements in Latin America to carpet bombing South East Asia to now torturing Iraqis and Muslims to gang raping Japanese teen agers.
More people have negative views on US millitary than positive both in Okinawa and across the globe. And there is a reason for it. USA has a long track record of ignoring international law, suppressing democratic social reform movements in Latin America to carpet bombing South East Asia to now torturing Iraqis and Muslims to gang raping Japanese teen agers.
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
The Dollar is worth ****. US is running out of cash to support their imperialistic habits. It is Japan and China which is supporting US economy these days.
Omoiyari should be hodo hodo. Japan is paying wages for idjut Americans. To do..? apart from raping teen agers.
I am American. So I support the troops because US is the greatest nation on this earth ad nauseam.
Omoiyari should be hodo hodo. Japan is paying wages for idjut Americans. To do..? apart from raping teen agers.
I am American. So I support the troops because US is the greatest nation on this earth ad nauseam.
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scorpion da black
a friend
- 17 May 2007
- 646
- 16
the decision is to be made by the Japanese people.
out of respect to the Japanese people..we have o say in this.
if the Japanese people see th US troops as allies then they might stay.
if they are seen as invaders then they should leave .
old timers in japan see the US as an invading force that defeated japan and forced japan to give up its army so it would be dependent on the US military for protection.
the youth in japan either don't care or are highly patriotic...yet they see the US as allies now and welcomes their stay on Japanese soil...that is mainly due to fear from N-Korean and Chinese power.
japan suffers from many "occupations" if this phrase is used ...
Sakhalin islands up north taken by the Russians and Okinawa (Ryukyu) taken by Americans...
out of respect to the Japanese people..we have o say in this.
if the Japanese people see th US troops as allies then they might stay.
if they are seen as invaders then they should leave .
old timers in japan see the US as an invading force that defeated japan and forced japan to give up its army so it would be dependent on the US military for protection.
the youth in japan either don't care or are highly patriotic...yet they see the US as allies now and welcomes their stay on Japanese soil...that is mainly due to fear from N-Korean and Chinese power.
japan suffers from many "occupations" if this phrase is used ...
Sakhalin islands up north taken by the Russians and Okinawa (Ryukyu) taken by Americans...
Actually there still remans some daydreaming minorities here.
For example...
Japan Revolutionary Communist League Revolutionary Marxist Faction
Japan Revolutionary Communist League - Revolutionary Marxist Faction
This year the police in Zama, Kanagawa, which has a big US base found two metal pipes for a mortar attack.
Many US media said it might have something to do with Al-Qaeda, but they are the dreamers who live in a most peaceful and most successful comunist country, Japan.
It is more appropriate to say it is a corporate or salaryman communism here.
For example...
Japan Revolutionary Communist League Revolutionary Marxist Faction
Japan Revolutionary Communist League - Revolutionary Marxist Faction
This year the police in Zama, Kanagawa, which has a big US base found two metal pipes for a mortar attack.
Many US media said it might have something to do with Al-Qaeda, but they are the dreamers who live in a most peaceful and most successful comunist country, Japan.
It is more appropriate to say it is a corporate or salaryman communism here.
scorpion da black
a friend
- 17 May 2007
- 646
- 16
well that is weird way to put...
so there is japanese who hate america, fear globelization, and they are totally against imperialism....
but does this group of people represent all the japanese people?
there is many groups who fight by the way Derfel san like the JRA
so there is japanese who hate america, fear globelization, and they are totally against imperialism....
but does this group of people represent all the japanese people?
there is many groups who fight by the way Derfel san like the JRA
NO.
Some Japanese lefty guys claimed something like...
The US nuke was dirty, but the communist nuke was clean!
Or even now, A Chinese warship coming to Tokyo is "for friendship", but the US one is for accelerating Japan's ultra-militarism.
Wish super-rich Chinese entrepreneurs would teach a lesson to the revolution-loving Japanese.
