Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?

[TuskCracker]

Is It time for US Forces to leave Japan ?

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The crimes which Japan comits are far less than what US does. Good to get some perspective here. I will agree that Japan has lots of faults but again compared with USA they are minute.

I hope Americans will leave Japan one day. And a person who volunterily joins Uncle Sam neends to get their head examined.

I hope so. I am American, I am tired of my tax's (my hard earned money) goes to helping other countries.

Like stopping "ethnic slaughter" in Southern Europe. The killings of Bosnia/Kosovo/Srebenicia_Bosnia

What was the Srebenicia_Bosnia killings in Europe in July-1995. Was it 8,000 murdered, or was it more ? Didn't "Dutch" troops stand and watch !
.

 

[Glenski]

The crimes which Japan comits are far less than what US does. Good to get some perspective here. I will agree that Japan has lots of faults but again compared with USA they are minute..

Do you even live in Japan (like I do)? Why are we comparing crimes in the US and Japan? This is a Japan forum, and we ought to be discussing issues relevant to this country, not comparing to others like that. Poor debating strategy.

 

[centrajapan]

us millitary famous for gang rapes, murdering taxi drivers for some spare change, murdering old people for some spare change, crashing helicopters into school buildings. yes, these fine people sure do give usa an even better reputaion than they have now. americans must be proud.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

centrajapan,

Like you I am a European. But I lived in Indonesia when the Japanese occupied that part of the world. So I was set free by the British!

Holland was set free by Americans, but also by Canadians, British and Dutch ( who lived in London during the war).
That is history.

Today, the president of the US is disliked by many people from all over the world.
But this doesn't give us the right to judge all Americans.
I am quite certain that the Americans wil chose the right man/woman to be their next President.

Americans leaving Okinawa ? What do the people from Okinawa prefer? As an outsider I guess that it has to be their choice, their vote, that is the most important. Not so?

 

[pipokun]

So, you really didn't answer my question.
First of all, don't use the NUMBER of crimes committed by anyone (soldiers or civilians). That is a poor way of comparing. Use PERCENTAGES. For example, I can show you a web site made by Okinawans who actually try to prove that the military there should be removed (for one reason) because they commit so MANY crimes. Key word is MANY (ie, a NUMBER). Yes, they do, but if you compare the PERCENTAGE of crimes that many people commit with the PERCENTAGE committed by Japanese, you will see that the US crime count is lower. So, in essence, the Japanese people are more criminal in nature than the US military. But, just because the (admittedly stupid) soldiers go out and commit crimes in a foreign land, they are more open to the media exposure

Japanese authorities investigating alleged rape of woman by 4 U.S. servicemen

TOKYO (AP) -- Japanese authorities are investigating an alleged sexual assault on a 19-year woman last weekend by four U.S. Marines in southwestern Japan, officials and media reports said Friday.
source

They are govenment officials, not civilians like you.

If you want to say "the Japanese people are more criminal", just compare the crime rate of civilian in each country.

 

[pipokun]

The source is from the communist paper, Akahata, but the original source is the official one from Defense Facilities Administration Agency.

Accidents on duty should not be in this topic, though the fewer, the better.

Year/the number of crimes/death (off duty)
2000/1474/4
2001/1388/1
2002/1624/1
2003/1764/3
2004/1611/2

Their resident status is the official one, so it is rare that they are handed down to the police except serious crimes.
It is up to you whether it is just small or not. And probably the death number does include traffic-related deaths, I think.

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Japanese authorities investigating alleged rape of woman by 4 U.S. servicemen

Besides it.:auch:
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
A son of a U.S. soldier was arrested,
He raped a woman.
[Okinawa]
He hits a woman (22) of an employee in a restaurant in Okinawa-shi,
And he raped her.
On October 9,
"Kevin L Parks" (21) without an occupation that a criminal lives in Okinawa U.S. air force Kadena base
The police arrested him on the suspicion of a rape.
He accepts a crime.
In the investigation,
October 1
From 4:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m.,
In a restaurant,
To the female employee who demanded eating and drinking rate, he hit her with beer pot.
He blocked up a tongue so that she cannot give a voice, and he raped her.
And he escaped.
The woman was injured seriously.
Okinawa Police were based on a portrait of the suspect from witness testimony of other restaurant employees and found the suspect in cooperation with a criminal investigation agency of the United States Armed Forces.
Because he did testimony to accept a crime, the police arrested him.
He was going to go back to a U.S. own country on October 1.
On October 9,
When an investigator of Okinawa Police demanded arbitrary going together from the suspect from home in Kadena base,
He prepared an escape.
Mother of a suspect,
The captain who works in Kadena base.
http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200710101700_04.html

Many Japanese do not know this incident,
Besides Okinawa,
Because it is not broadcasted in news.

 

[centrajapan]

There was an incident in Yokosuka where one person from the US millitary broke into a house. When the person woke up he started beating him to death then took some spare change so that he could go out and drink. You don't hear much about English teachers breaking into someones homes and beating them up to death.

Yankee should go home.

To the people who voted they protect Japan. They don't know much do they? They can protect Japan as much as they want from US. It doesn't make a slightest difference. NATO countries have this policy one for all all for one. Yet most NATO countries do not. I repeat Do Not have US millitary bases.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

America was always orientated on Asia/Pacific. When WWII started in Europe, America looked away. When the war in the Far East started, the European colonies became the
Allieds from America. After the war America let all those Europeans in the Far East down, hence the San Francisco Treaty.
Meaning: Europeans out and Americans in Asia. You may call it politics.

 

[centrajapan]

Europe had no business in Asia. I am glad they went home and so should US.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Yes centrajapan,

Business, Oil and Politics is still making the world turn around. The President of America has already warned us for a WWIII.

Colinial countries in Asia and Africa were considered normal before WWII. Japan also had Korea and Formosa (today) Taiwan as a colony.

Now in 2007 we don't want anymore colonies and that is of course how it should be!

Yet I still think that the Europeans have left their colonies in Asia to early and too all of a sudden. I guess that it would have been better if we could have stayed on after the war to build up the destroyed colonial countries during WWII.
Just 5 more years and everything would have been much better.

I belief in working together, East and West. Different cultures are no problem if we both give and take.
I have a son and a daughter adopted from India, I don't feel any difffrense between us.
Funny thing is that my children from Asia grew up in Europe, and I who came from Europe as a small child, grew up in the Far East.

 

[Glenski]

They are govenment officials, not civilians like you.
If you want to say "the Japanese people are more criminal", just compare the crime rate of civilian in each country.

No, soldiers are not government "officials". They are government employees = servants.

I wrote what I did because the Okinawans have put up a web site that tried to compare the US military crimes there with Okinawan citizens. Not me, the Okinawans put this up. Compare crime rates as I showed, and you can see their web site draws completely incorrect conclusions.

Gang rapes? Look around. Other people do the same. Now show me the data on what the percentages are for the US military vs. other groups in Japan. Same thing for any other crimes.

Do I claim the US military are angels? Hell no! Many/Most are youngsters with weapons and an attitude being sent to a land so far from their homes that they find life off base incredible and inviting. Many/Most don't have a clue what to do with themselves, but the percentage of them committing crimes is not higher than local Japanese. They just get more press over it because they are foreigners in the limelight.

 

[pipokun]

Year/the number of crimes/death (off duty)
2000/1474/4
2001/1388/1
2002/1624/1
2003/1764/3
2004/1611/2

I am just sacred if the SDP soldier as a public servant would caused 1611*5 crimes (even including the trafic accidents)/ a year. We have about 5 times more soldiers than the US force.
Don't you think the 1611/50000 crime rate (OFF DUTY) is unusual?

Tell me the crime rate of the US force in the US. It is as bad as the above?

 

[Dogen Z]

... Do I claim the US military are angels? Hell no! Many/Most are youngsters with weapons and an attitude being sent to a land so far from their homes that they find life off base incredible and inviting. Many/Most don't have a clue what to do with themselves, but the percentage of them committing crimes is not higher than local Japanese. They just get more press over it because they are foreigners in the limelight.

In other words, the Japanese can expect these kinds of crimes to continue as long as the boys are here. Thanks for the warning.

But they don't get more press. There was more outrage and press coverage on the Japanese university guys commiting gang rape about a year ago. Everyone seems to be desensitized by the frequency of these incidents by the U.S. military. It's no longer outrageous, just depressing.

The Japanese will have to decide for themselves how much of this they can take. After talking to some Japanese friends, I think many are becoming more hawkish. They want Japan to have their own Bomb so that it can defend itself without the U.S. military. They perceive themselves as a weak nation that has to take a lot of sh*t and act like a stooge for a country that just treats them like a piggy bank rather than a true ally. I'm afraid I can't say their argument is without merit.

 

[SushiShin]

You know, at the moment im thinking, why did anyone in history came to japan, im imagining what it would be if nobody went or seek trouble with japan. Would it be calm? would there be no fight? would there be no war? would the word life has another meaning then?

To be honest, i think the US had to leave Japan allready after the last war (referring to the war of US against Japan and after..)

Some people may stay if their really wanna settle in Japan. If you aren't then go back to your own country, i said it maybe rude and cruel but it's the truth. I think the US Force is wasting time for nothing. Japan has an army they are well trained men, time to let go i would say. But if they wanna stay then i think they may stay. But yeah who am i to say whats good and bad? I think it's better if there soldiers but not too many lets say 50/50 (fifty-fifty) then our problem here is solved.

 

[diceke]

 

[Glenski]

Ocean Dude,
That gang rape got a lot of press, yes, but what I meant by "more press" is that you will likely see more often the reports of a soldier who has committed a crime, ANY crime, than you will a normal J citizen.

In other words, the Japanese can expect these kinds of crimes to continue as long as the boys are here. Thanks for the warning.

Yes, our fighting boys will continue to do their bad things, whether they are here or not. Since Japanese people commit a higher percentage of crimes, though, shouldn't we be more in fear of them than the soldiers? Besides, you are trying to imply that just because crimes are committed by soldiers, the entire nation's policy (no, check that, the policy of TWO nations) should be scrapped, and send everyone home. Ridiculous.

pipokun,
I'm trying to understand the first quoted set of numbers you posted. What are they (especially that last figure), and where did you get them?

If you want figures, go here. http://www3.pref.okinawa.jp/site/view/contview.jsp?cateid=14&id=666&page=1
Forget the number of cases "involving SOFA" people. That doesn't say anything about whether they were arrested or were victims themselves. Look at the second table, the one about arrests. Even though Japan has a high rate of conviction, even these figures don't accurately portray who was convicted, but let's just say 100%. Read the data. It shows clearly that despite the rise in crime since 1972 (partially attributed to the growing number of troops), arrested SOFA personnel (including families and civilians) amount to only 5.3% of all the crimes on the island. Who committed the other 94.7% (mostly Japanese, no doubt).

The latest figures there are only for 2001, but let's take a peek anyway.
Crimes are separated in brutal, assault, larceny, white-collar, immoral conduct, and other. Total for 2001 is 72. TOTAL arrests! That's 72 out of 50,000 total SOFA personnel, or 0.144% (yup, less than 1% of the people did those crimes).

According to this site NameBright - Coming Soon from 1972 to 2001, the average was 1.7% of the crimes on Okinawa were committed by SOFA, but this average falls to 0.8% if you look only from 1992 to 2001, so by those figures alone, things are actually getting better!

Okinawa has 1.29 million people, or so. If we use this total figure (which erroneously includes children and babies, but so did the figures from the Okinawa site when reporting SOFA personnel!!), we can see that 95% of the 3,344 crimes in 2001 (3177 crimes)
that were not committed by SOFA were then committed by other people. Not knowing how many other foreigners did them, let's just assume the worst and see what we get.

3177/1.29 million = 0.246% crime rate. That's almost twice the 0.144% figure I showed above for SOFA. So, in general Okinawans commit almost twice as many crimes per person as SOFA.
Don't like the math? Ok, let's cut out the kids and use 3/4 of the population (anyone 25 or older), or 970,000 people. 3177/970,000 = 0.33% crime rate. Tsk tsk. This just isn't getting any better, is it? MORE than twice the SOFA rate. Start weeding out even more Okinawans for age and gender (which skews the comparison with SOFA, but whatever), and the rates get worse and worse, don't they?

Don't like 2001 data? Look at this 2007 article from Stars and Stripes. Crime from SOFA is going down! http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=104&article=22496&archive=true

Naohiro Tsutsumi, Ministry of Foreign Affairs Okinawa Liaison Office deputy chief, told reporters following the two-hour closed-door meeting. He said most members were encouraged by the declining number of crimes involving Americans. (snip) "What the members believed was really important was ... that the trend is decreasing," Tsutsumi said. "... This has great significance."

Ryojin Kuwae, Okinawa City Entertainment Business Association director, said he was pleased to see the military working closely with police and other officials.

So, don't just take my word on it.

 

[Glenski]

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=37878&archive=true
Another related article on the declining crime rate from SOFA.

 

[centrajapan]

72 arrests is 72 too many especially when they comit brutal crime. They are like an occupying forces and no one likes to be occupied. And US forces have a higher crime rate than SDF which would be more natural to compare with.
Besides alot of the crimes go unreported comited by US personell because US Millitary will do whatever to cover up their own mistakes. You see this in Iraq too and basically everywhere on the planet where they tend to go and pillage.

Why is it that US need to send young kids aborad in the first place?

 

[Dogen Z]

Ocean Dude,
That gang rape got a lot of press, yes, but what I meant by "more press" is that you will likely see more often the reports of a soldier who has committed a crime, ANY crime, than you will a normal J citizen.
Yes, our fighting boys will continue to do their bad things, whether they are here or not. Since Japanese people commit a higher percentage of crimes, though, shouldn't we be more in fear of them than the soldiers? Besides, you are trying to imply that just because crimes are committed by soldiers, the entire nation's policy (no, check that, the policy of TWO nations) should be scrapped, and send everyone home. Ridiculous. QUOTE]

Let me try to make my point a little clearer. These terrible crimes committed by U.S. military personnel are so frequent that, along with other disadvantageous U.S. policies, even moderate Japanese are seriously questioning the value of U.S. presence here. Some have even suggested that Japan develop its own nuclear weapons so that it doesn't have to depend on the U.S. nuclear umbrella. If that happened, Japan would not need such a big U.S. military presence in the country.

As far as policies are concerned, either side can change them as suits their purpose. The Bush administration has showned that acting unilatelerally can easily be done. The Japanese generally take a long time to reach consensus but once that consensus is reached their decision is implemented rapidly. About 10 years ago some reporter tried to press a high ranking Japanese official about Japan's nuclear capability. The official answered, "Japan would never go nuclear." The reporter pressed a little more, "Never? In any situation?" The official answered, "No, never." The reporter then asked, "Well, if Japan ever did go nuclear, about how long do you think it would take Japan to develop a bomb?" The official answered, "138 days." That was about 10 years ago. I've heard that it would take less that 120 days today.

Before that happens, perhaps the U.S. should further consider reducing the number of military personnel kept here.

 

[diceke]

"The locals also do it" is a petty excuse especially when you are in a foreign country.

 

[Glenski]

72 arrests is 72 too many especially when they comit brutal crime.

Look at that page. You didn't, did you? Of those 72 crimes, 41 were larceny (probably ripping off taxi drivers, if history is correct). NON-brutal. White collar and "immoral" crimes account for 5 more non-brutal ones. Hard to say about the 15 in the "other" category, but you didn't even read this information, so why should I bother discussing with you?

They are like an occupying forces

That's your opinion, and we differ on that so much that is it staggering.

And US forces have a higher crime rate than SDF which would be more natural to compare with.

Hey, I don't claim that the US military are angels or that their crime rate is lower thand the SDF. If you have proof that it is higher, I'd believe you. I'm just saying that the Japanese are skewing the data to make it seem like the US military has higher crime rates than EVERYONE here, and that's just plain incorrect.

Besides alot of the crimes go unreported comited by US personell because US Millitary will do whatever to cover up their own mistakes.

You have nothing to substantiate this for crimes in Japan.

Why is it that US need to send young kids aborad in the first place?

How old are you?

 

[Glenski]

Let me try to make my point a little clearer. These terrible crimes committed by U.S. military personnel are so frequent

Stop right there. I've just show you that they are going down in frequency. Which "terrible crimes" are you saying are so frequent? According to the data I've shown, more than half of the crimes are non-violent in nature, and the number of brutal crimes and assaults have gone down significantly. Or did you also not even do me the courtesy of reading the data I gave you? Probably not.

that, along with other disadvantageous U.S. policies, even moderate Japanese are seriously questioning the value of U.S. presence here.

No, you are wrong.

Japanese have misperceptions about the amount of crime committed by US military. I've already shown that. However, the Japanese do have other claims that are valid against the military, such as the pollution and tragic accidents that have occurred because of the military.

Some have even suggested that Japan develop its own nuclear weapons so that it doesn't have to depend on the U.S. nuclear umbrella.

What umbrella? Japan doesn't allow nuclear weapons inside its borders? And defense doesn't soley rely on nuclear weapons anyhow.

Besides, if Japan's few proponents for nuclear weapons (and I don't even recall any to date) get the least bit of muscle, there will be hell to pay from the rest of the citizens, especially Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who have been lobbying for disarmanent since the war. I think you give those people with their suggestions far too much sense of power.

As far as policies are concerned, either side can change them as suits their purpose. The Bush administration has showned that acting unilatelerally can easily be done.

I hope you don't think I condone Bush's actions, because I don't, and neither does over half of the USA right now.

The Japanese generally take a long time to reach consensus but once that consensus is reached their decision is implemented rapidly. About 10 years ago some reporter tried to press a high ranking Japanese official about Japan's nuclear capability. The official answered, "Japan would never go nuclear." The reporter pressed a little more, "Never? In any situation?" The official answered, "No, never." The reporter then asked, "Well, if Japan ever did go nuclear, about how long do you think it would take Japan to develop a bomb?" The official answered, "138 days." That was about 10 years ago. I've heard that it would take less that 120 days today.
Before that happens, perhaps the U.S. should further consider reducing the number of military personnel kept here.

What does this prove? Pure speculation. Do you realize how horrible Japan's space agency alone has been in its efforts to launch a single rocket? Do you know anything about the Tokaimura nuclear accident and ensuing cover-up? This country may have some technological marvels, but nuclear weapons development is not likely one of them, IMO.

However, your last line brings this whole thread back to its original point. Reducing or eliminating the US presence here. Big difference, and until both countries agree, not much is going to change, and probably shouldn't.

 

[pipokun]

I'm trying to understand the first quoted set of numbers you posted. What are they (especially that last figure), and where did you get them?
If you want figures, go here.

You mean the crimes related to death?
The data includes all crimes commited in Japan, not just in Okinawa. And I don't think this thead is not about Okinawa at all.

You can read the minute in a Diet committee.
http://www.shugiin.go.jp/itdb_kaigiroku.nsf/html/kaigiroku/000516220050701011.htm

 

[Dogen Z]

The opinion of the general Japanese populace is what matters the most in this issue. Tedious, two-bit lawyer arguments won't help.