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I love Japan - China needs to BACK OFF

C

CircuitFreak

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Hello all! Served 8 months in Okinawa as a U.S. Marine, and I know many okinawans do not like to be called "japanese" , but I believe I got to see a good example of Japanese society. And I just want to say the locals were the nicest and friendliest people I've met of anywhere (been to korea, australia, most of mainland u.s., thailand, canada). Super-intelligent, friendly, an almost divine enthusiasm for the positive side of LIFE.

So when I start hearing about the protests in China against the Japanese, I take notice. Many thousands protesting, Japanese businesses affected, and the reason? Textbooks, apologies, and visits to the shrine of past war heroes.

Well today I see China is still complaining.

And I am PISSED OFF. REALLY PISSED OFF.

1) No one should be told its wrong to honor the fallen heroes of your past. Those soldiers fought for their country because they loved their country and their people, not because they wanted to "kill" and "destroy". I'd like to see China tell just ONE U.S. Vietnam vet "hey buddy you should shouldnt be visiting the Vietnam Memorial cause you guys were BAD" and I guarantee you we'd invade mainland China by next Memorial Day.

2) Almost every country in the world has made huge mistakes in its wartime aggressions in the past. We should be celebrating the peace we have now instead of dwelling on histories follies. To me it looks like the protesters haven't got anything better to do with their lives. If they're looking for a fight, they should just set up some fighting competitions amongst themselves or something.

3) CHINA NEEDS TO SHUT THE F*** UP! THEY HAVE NO HONOR! THEY'RE GONNA SLAM JAPAN, A COUNTRY THAT'S ADVANCED SOCIETY
TECHNOLOGICALLY IN WAYS WE CANNOT BE GRATEFUL ENOUGH FOR, WHEN THEY HAVE ALLOWED THEIR NEIGHBOR NORTH KOREA TO DECIMATE MILLIONS OF LIVES THROUGH STARVATION AND A ROGUE REGIME TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS!?!??!? Just curious... did the japanese enjoy having a ballistic missile shot over their island by North Korea? Well guess what China! That was YOUR responsibility! It is because of YOU that North Korea has been allowed to fester and grow into the evil empire it is TODAY! Why dont you spend your efforts (since you aint got anything better to do than encourage dumb unfounded protests) liberating your dying neighbor North Korea and removing their NUKES. Oh that's right. Their your FRIENDS! You'll never have to worry about them nuking you!

To finish, let me say: WAH WAH WAH so somebody did something bad to you in the past, CHINA... boo hoo everybody got crapped on at one point or another in history... as I recall farther down the road Chinese citystates warred against each other... why dont you go protest yourself? it'd make more sense!

If ANYTHING happens against Japan from China I would re-enlist in the Marine Corps in a heartbeat.

okay thanks for listening to my rant. Have a nice day!
 
3) CHINA NEEDS TO SHUT THE F*** UP! THEY HAVE NO HONOR!
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Apparently Japan doesnt either since they cant even own up for what they've done.

I'd like to see China tell just ONE U.S. Vietnam vet "hey buddy you should shouldnt be visiting the Vietnam Memorial cause you guys were BAD" and I guarantee you we'd invade mainland China by next Memorial Day.
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I never knew Vietnam was in China.


Wait didnt America go and start a war because of what happened in 9/11, why dont you Americans stay in America and beat each other up instead of invading Iraq for imaginary weapons of mass destruction.


Do the world a favour and flush yourself down the toilet.
 


heroes? you calling those Class A war criminals 'heroes'? do i have to tell you how brutally they treated the chinese citizens? do you know about the Unit 731? how about the 'hundred people cut' contest? how about the rapes? do you know that they even killed children?
 
hello

hi there, its interesting to talk to a U.S. Marine. You metioned about the U.S. invovlement in Vietnam. I would like to metion a movie called " The deer hunter" which I believed is a genuine picture of the traumas a human being will suffer from the War. In this film, 3 U.S. marines( Michae, Stan and Nick) suffer from the war in Vietnam.I would like to suggest you have a go if you haven't watched it. Its a masterpiece from American. Solider who survived get so lost after the war---simply becaused they found themselves different from ordinary people.



Even the solider is the victim of War, what about the civilians? Maybe you never heared losses of China(or Repulic of China)from invasion. Maybe its a good opportunity to know it now.

Hope we can have more talk in the future.



P.S.
Quote from "The Deer Hunter":Michael: I feel a lot of distance. I feel far away.
 
CircuitFreak said:
1) No one should be told its wrong to honor the fallen heroes of your past. Those soldiers fought for their country because they loved their country and their people, not because they wanted to "kill" and "destroy".
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Good to know that. So, we Germans can now start to honour our Great War hero Hitler again.
 
Okay so what would China have everyone do? Japan "own up" for its crimes? Germany re-own up for its Nazi crimes? France re-own up for Napolean's conquering? The North re-own up for its burning of the South? Like I said many countries in the past have committed acts of war for good or bad. But the war is over! Time to move on! As some have commented, America doesn't have a clean slate, either! At what point do we say "enough" and stop accusing each other for crimes in the past?

"Wait didnt America go and start a war because of what happened in 9/11, why dont you Americans stay in America and beat each other up instead of invading Iraq for imaginary weapons of mass destruction. "

Well, unfortunately, I truly don't believe that's why we invaded Iraq. And yeah, we were pretty dirty about the Haliburton-oil contracts being sold without allowing competitive bids. Someone needs to kick our vice-president's ***. However, I do belive you cannot have an INSANE dictatorship in control of a MAJOR oil supply. I don't care WHO you are. If you supply a great percentage of the world's oil, you cant be someone who rules under total fear of death and violent manipulation, someone who thwarts and undermines the UN's food-for-oil program to the tune of billions of dollars that DONT go to your people.

"heroes? you calling those Class A war criminals 'heroes'? do i have to tell you how brutally they treated the chinese citizens? do you know about the Unit 731? how about the 'hundred people cut' contest? how about the rapes? do you know that they even killed children?"

Yeah I'm not sure about the mentality of the Japanese soldier's fighting in China. Sounds like they went on a maniacal rampage far beyopnd their mission objectives. However, that wasn't the entire Japanese military, and in EVERY great army there is always going to be some crazies who go beyond the laws of war. Now are you gonna say EVERY Japanese soldier in world war 2 was a child-killing women-raping torturer? I refuse to believe that. We had companies of soldiers and marines in Vietnam that flipped-out" and horribly murdered thousands of innocent Vietnamese. But I'm not gonna denounce the entire Vietnam-era fighting force because of those idiots and say that NO vietnam vets are heroes.

"hi there, its interesting to talk to a U.S. Marine. You metioned about the U.S. invovlement in Vietnam. I would like to metion a movie called " The deer hunter" which I believed is a genuine picture of the traumas a human being will suffer from the War. In this film, 3 U.S. marines( Michae, Stan and Nick) suffer from the war in Vietnam.I"

Yeah wow I love Robert De Niro! Definitely I will check this out. I can tell you a lot of Vietnam vets were disheartened because they weren't able to do their job! Our politicians were choosing and approving or not approving the military targets! The Marine Corps actually had an amphibious assault planned to cut off supply lines across the whole of Vietnam. It was never allowed. By allowing the politicians to choose our battle and not the military resulted in a crushing defeat for us, and a lot of our fighters were naturally "traumatized" because they couldn't understand why old-men in suits sitting in Washington had not let them do their job the right way.

"Even the solider is the victim of War, what about the civilians? Maybe you never heared losses of China(or Repulic of China)from invasion. Maybe its a good opportunity to know it now.

Alright, as far as honoring fallen ww2 heroes I think the japanese have a right to do that. As far as compensation perhaps for Chinese ww2 victims under Japanese atrocities I actually believe that some compensation should be forthcoming from the Japanese government. The civilians WERE innocent, and an apology means only so much. But I have to say, didn't these protests beign over some textbooks printed in Japan? Has anyone read OUR high school textbooks? They are COMPLETELY biased against african-americans and native-americans, with a "u.s. govt can do no wrong" mentality. It sucked! Here's a quote I enjoy "You can trust the U.S. government! Just ask any Native American!"

Hmm, however, if China wants to go back in histroy and point some fingers, when is China going to apologize for it's involvement in the Korean War? They backed an invading regime with a huge military force that resulted in the forming of an evil government that has resulted in MILLIONS of starvation for its civilians and nuclear weapons for a complete madman! Shouldn't China apologize to South Korea for allowing this? The civilians of Seoul and other cities within a hundred miles of the DMZ live under the fear that they could be leveled to the ground within 5 minutes of a North Korean artillery barrage, but hey, that wouldn't have happened if U.S. Forces had been allowed to defeat North Korea and help set-up a government there that actually cared about its people and peace with its neighbors. But now WHO interviened and prevented that? China, right?
 
CircuitFreak,
By the number of posts listed in your profile, I am going out on a limb and assume that you're pretty new to the forum (Hell, I still feel new after 100+ posts), but what you're arguing has been discussed (some may argue ad naseum). The simple fact of the matter is that you are a U.S. marine who has lived in Japan (Okinawa) for 8 months (as you so proudly attested to earlier) and have NOT lived in other countries that are on the other side of this fence. Therefore, can I assume that you have a very biased view of the situation? You write:

At what point do we say "enough" and stop accusing each other for crimes in the past?
Click to expand...

Where exactly do you fit within this "we?" Are you of Chinese and/or Korean descent? Have you lived in either of these countries (as well as other Asian colonies of Japan)? Granted Koizumi made a great step forward this past weekend by publicily apologizing and it's great! However, at the end of the day, words truly are meaningless without sincere action.

As for U.S. "helping" Korea. Now there will be some who dissent here, but NO COUNTRY spends milllions of dollars, expends (or puts at risk) military men such as your self for altruistic reasons. The U.S. wanted to stop the spread of Communism (actually the USSR was behind the invasion of Korea and China was the vehicle that drove that agenda) so that American policy would prevail in Asia. Money, not good will, was and will be the reason why America has its fingers in everyone's pie. Don't forget, it was also the U.S. gov't that placed Syngman Rhee in power in South Korea. And for many years, Koreans lived under a terrible dictatorship (some may argue that it was worse than whatever was happening in the North).

You're entitled to Love Japan, but maybe it's you that needs to BACK OFF on China becasue from what I've read, you clearly don't understand the dynamics at play. But hey, this is an online forum and you're entitled to do whatever you want...
 
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about a week before,a klatch came off,attendee are all older persons.
They are survival of DEATHMARCH.
They are all american.
I heard an elder said:" I just wait for an apologize from japan but ......"
--------------------------
With the fall of the Philippines, over 70,000 (50,000 Filipino, 20,000 American) soldiers, sailors, and airmen became prisoners of the Japanese, not to mention the civilian internees. At the end of World War II, nearly 37% of all POWs lost their lives as a result of the way the Japanese treated their captives.
--------------------------
Japan is such a country:
If he is conquered by you , he will became a dog,regard you as master.
now Japan's master is USA,but Japanese is an emulative nation with ambition,maybe he will be the master of Usa.I think if Usa keep on connivance Japan to do everyting,finally,Usa will get a great lot of hurt from Japan.
Today, I think such as "I love Japan - China needs to BACK OFF ..." from a U.S. Marine is reasonable.
 
Its so interesting to see so many people still define China as a barbaric country controlled by an evil government.

We never change? We are destined to be Evil?


I still can remeber What my Aussie friend told me---man, you know, we defeated those Japenese in WW2 by ourselves.
 
Our relation with N.K is not that strong as imagined by outsiders. China was and still being accused of supporting N.K's brutal regime with the Nuclear tech.

well... from our point, since we established the diplomatic relation with the South Korea, Pyongyang has walked too far from our control.If that regime collapsed. We Chinese have to suffer the consequences. Today only in Beijing , there are 200,000 N.K. illeagal immigrants who escaped from starvation for better life.If one day that communist authority collapses , there will be millions of refugees flea to N.K-China border, which wis going to a big headache for us( I am quite sure that Seoul would not and can not accept all of those refugees). From another perspective, We don't expect to see another pro-Washington governemnt rises in Korean-Pennisula. Just like U.S. dislikes her neighbour communist Cuba.

Therefore, we provide food, clothes to that country. Maybe we nuclearised N.K. but nowdays, it just seems impossible.
 
A5573A said:
Its so interesting to see so many people still define China as a barbaric country controlled by an evil government.

We never change? We are destined to be Evil?
Click to expand...

Yes,We are Evil till we become loyal flunky of USA tomorrow.
I think "if we changed" "if we developed".....all not important.Because you are evil or not is defined by democracy country.
As chinese people ,we have no right to appraise our government
 
Should Change ur nick to JapanFreak..lol
 
i'm a dumb lazy american but at least my gas is cheap!

"Where exactly do you fit within this "we?" Are you of Chinese and/or Korean descent? Have you lived in either of these countries (as well as other Asian colonies of Japan)? "

We as in humans as in we all have to live on this planet so lets get along.

China is no evil empire. In fact the 7 years I lived in honolulu I hung out in Chinatown a lot and got to meet a lot of chinese people and the one thing I noticed the most is they are extremely disciplined workers and loyal to their families in ways americans could never understand. One lady i worked with at AT&T said she was married but had come to Hawaii for 4 years while her husband remained in China to save up money so they could start a business in the U.S. after she got her bachelor's degree (sorry for the run-on sentence). I don't know ANY american who would remain faithful for such a long period of time!


OK ok I've learned a lot from these responses... good stuff to know... but I'm curious. According to news agencies here in the U.S., and since they may be biased please tell me if I'm wrong, but didn't these protests begin over some Japanese textbooks downplaying Japanese atrocities in World War 2?

but yet, am I not correct in saying a Chinese textbook could never show examples of any kind of atrocities committed by the Chinese govt because censorship prevents comments against the communist regime?

So then what do Chinese textbooks say about Tiananmen Square? Do they accurately portray the governments involvement in the killing of its civilians or not? I certainly hope so cause otherwise you got thousands of Chinese protesters pointing the finger at japan when they themselves cannot compose textbooks "accurately portraying events" of their own government.



"Yes,We are Evil till we become loyal flunky of USA tomorrow.
I think "if we changed" "if we developed".....all not important.Because you are evil or not is defined by democracy country"

Ah, we're far from democratic. Democracy only works if the citizens educate themselves on who they want to elect, but most americans rarely go beyond what they see on T.V. and the media ends up influencing every political election. Another example, look at the iraq war. Bush wanted to invade iraq, pressured the CIA into convincing congress with false intelligence, so of course congress voted in his favor so in the end it was a war basically beugun by one man with little backlash from the people (cause once again americans believe everything they see on tv, so a couple pictures of buildings and they believe saddam's got "weapons of mass destruction".)

I love people of every race. i don't care who it is. But anytime I see people trying to hate on each other, i get mad. That's just me. In 10 years a terrorist will be able to construct a bomb the size of a handbag with a half-a-megaton yield with ease and walk it into any civilian population center they want. The further technology advances the more dangerous this world's gonna get and if we don't all get along by then and try to cooperate with each other in ensuring peace... who knows WHAT is gonna happen... i just know squabbling over events that happened over 50 years ago isn't going to accomplish anything...

"Should Change ur nick to JapanFreak..lol"

when it comes to Japanese animation, hell yeah I'll take that name. I love that stuff!
 
Tiananmen and Nisei in WW2

That's quite true. There are lots of problems with this authority.We do have a lot of things which is shameful to conceal, Tiananmen Massacre, cultural revolution, Tibet, East-Turkeystan...and now, corruption. Although the outside world always crticise Beijing over these issues, Beijing has done a fantastic job to let her citizen forget it. It is similar to the approach applied by Tokyo on the War issue. I believe all the government in this world do the same trick, as well as the U.S. What U.S.governemnt did in WW2 to the Japanese was also shameful. I read a about those Nisei, and moved by their bravery and strong faith. They loved thier country, but what they got in return was prejudice from other Americans. Japanese were beaten in L.A street.

Even worse, while those Nisei were fighting in Pacific or European battlefield, their relatives were put into into concentration camp, just like other ordinary Japanese in America during WW2.

Well... in chinese textbook we don't cover the mistreament Japanese confronted in U.S. in WW2. I don't know about Japanese texbook nor American's. Maybe you guys can give me some info about it.
 
CircuitFreak said:
Alright, as far as honoring fallen ww2 heroes I think the japanese have a right to do that.
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Nobody has criticised the honouring of war deads in Yasukuni Shrine. The problem is that a bunch of war criminals were sneakily added to the list of 2.5 million ordinary soldiers and civilians in 1978. It would be fine for politicians to honour war deads if the war criminals were removed from the shrine.


No, there were MANY issues, and the textbooks are one of the least important ones. I have written a summary of the causes of the recent tensions here


I am sorry to hear that the US government does a bad job in teaching history. But frankly the US has more issues than just that, and usually worse than Japan's. Only about 1/3 of the members of this forum are US citizens. The two admins (thomas and I) are not. If you want to know how I was taught history at school, I explained about it today here


China has its own past to be ashamed of (we have discussed this here). Few people deny that. But did you know that Japan also killed 'millions' of civilians during WWII ? (please check this thread)


Just for your information, there was a survey made last year and many South Koreans think that the US is more dangerous than North Korea.

New poll sees U.S. as top threat in South Korea


What's more the relations between North and South Korea have been improving in the last few years. They even plan to re-open a railway between the two countries and split families living on each side were allowed to reunite for the first time last year since 1953 (see article).
 
Damn, another useless argument made another overly patirotic American. *sigh* When will people learn?! Am I the only American on this forum that is not hung up on my country to give a damn about the feelings of other peoples and cultures? (I know I'm not, but I'm just making a point here.) Man this sucks.

Doc:ramen:
 
CircuitFreak said:
China is no evil empire. In fact the 7 years I lived in honolulu I hung out in Chinatown...
Click to expand...

Sorry, couldn't help laughing at your standards for judging a country.

I don't know ANY american who would remain faithful for such a long period of time!
Click to expand...

That tells me a lot on your background.

In 10 years a terrorist will be able to construct a bomb the size of a handbag with a half-a-megaton yield with ease and walk it into any civilian population center they want.
Click to expand...

Watched too much "24" ?
 
I hate that show, 24 that is. Although it is possible to make a bomb like that, I think the radicals are little bit smarter than to try it because Homeland Security is already upping their security protocols to look for something like that. (Besides the world is cracking down on the Black Market with illegal arms dealing anyway so I don't see what that guy has to point that crap out in the first place.) Still I think this CircuitFreak needs to shut his trap before he continues to get negative rep points.

Doc:ramen:
 
CircuitFreak said:
And I am PISSED OFF. REALLY PISSED OFF.
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And man do you piss ME off.

CircuitFreak said:
1) No one should be told its wrong to honor the fallen heroes of your past. Those soldiers fought for their country because they loved their country and their people, not because they wanted to "kill" and "destroy".
Click to expand...

Sometimes I really wonder about people's knowledge of history. Japanese soldiers during their invasion of northern China received direct orders to commit "cultural cleansing," or kill Chinese upon sight. The reason for this, is because the Japanese islands simply cannot bear to inhabit so many people. What the Japanese government wanted was to completely eradicate Chinese from north China, and move in their own people. So, tell me again that they didn't invade to kill and destroy?


I really like how on one hand, you want to celebrate peace, while proposing violence. I'm not even going to say more on this.


Hmm, so let me borrow your logic for a second. Since there is NO way we can EVER be grateful enough to China for inventing paper, printing, origami (yes, it was original invented by wealthy Chinese who would fold their letters into fancy designs), noodles, gunpowder, the rudder (you're a marine, you should appreciate it), the compass, acupuncture, and the first clock, it should stand that no country should EVER even DARE to criticise China for ANYTHING. Especially not where Japan is concerned because rice, chopsticks, Buddhism, various holidays (like Oshougatsu), political system, tea, martial arts, and notable ancient architecture were introduced to Japan by China. So, by your logic, Japan should just sit and wimper everytime China does anything because there's no way they can ever be grateful enough to China for its cultural development. What kind of Japan lover ARE you?


Yes, China had civil war. Are you going to tell me that Onin War never happened? That the Heiji War was a figment of some dude's imagination?

And are you saying that the TienAnMen incident never happened? Or were you just not aware of that?

Yes, everyone gets "crapped on" at some point. Is that any reason for any country to just sit back and forget the anguish and injustice done to them? So, the inhumane deaths of 10+million Chinese should be treated as though they never happened. The pain and humiliation felt by 200,000+ 'comfort women' all over Asia (or in laymen's terms, sex slaves) should be ignored. According to you, the Japanese of today don't deserve to know of their country's past, and should be viewed as childish and arrogant by the rest of the world simply because they were never taught the truth of why so many Asian countries dislike them.

Also by your logic, even though the Jews got "crapped on", they should have just "shut the **** up" and forgot about how their ancestors and loved ones were so brutally murdered. Shrines for Hitler should be erected all over Germany, because, well, he is a 'war hero'. Will you be the one building them?

I love Japan too, probably more than you do in fact, but there is just no way I can look the other direction on this issue, nor can I sit back and watch as unreasonable, biased rants are spewed about one of the great countries in the world. China has MUCH, MUCH, MUCH to improve, but I can honestly say that the Chinese people I have met in China are among the most intelligent and friendly people I have ever known.

BTW, I find that Okinawans are quite different from the rest of Japan, both in appearence and character. It is true that, like you said, many Okinawans don't completely consider themselves Japanese, and many Japanese don't consider Okinawans as part of them, either.
 
You are so sentimental rather than reasonable as an outsider, my American friend. Take a sip at your coffee and allow yourself another moment to think that your fathers were on the Chinese side fighting against Japan in WW2. So what is there that makes you so angry, more angry than my Japanese friends? Your sentiment indicates that you are eager to revenge Japan on our protests by entering a desired warfare. Oh, that's dangerous. Even a war is waged on this account, you are on the wrong side.

I am doing all this correspondence not to comment on Sino-Japanese relationship. but to try to reveal to you, my respected American friend how hatred towards the Japanese has been sustained for over half a century here in China (perhaps in South Korea as well) from the perspective of an average Chinese, whose fathers fought fiercely for national dignity against the Japanese invaders, of course with generous aids and assistance from your fathers.

The history textbook incident is just the immediate cause of the protests and some violence reported in the many cities in China recently. Beyond that are a number of interrelated facts or factors accounting for such durable confrontation between the Chinese and the Japanese-----

1) Repeated Japanese harassments in history even prior to their atrocity in World War II, together with Chinese history text-books highlighting national heroes standing firm in face of cruel Japanese invaders. So what the Chinese younger generation know about the Japanese is largely that they are a people with whom we have feud.

2) The Japanese, as a pagan nation like the Chinese, lack the ethic of repentance, thus are unlikely to win forgiveness from neighbors as the Germans have from their neighbors.

3) The average Chinese people envy the Japanese for their prosperity and seek to curb them.

Personally, I do feel helpless about this situation. Perhaps both peoples need to wake up to the fact that hatred and confrontation have always served deterioration of matters and that wisdom, good-willedness and tolerance are vital. But Cassi, after so many years of communist dictatorship and cultural destruction, we are now already a nation that have been alienated from our trasitional culture, from which all the virtues like wisdom and tolerance could have been drawn, yet are now beyond our reach.

Another point I'd like to make is that in China, which is in many ways not like the muslem world, average Chinese never conceive any negative sentiments toward Americans. In my county school, I openly proclaim that I am an 'American Chinese', by which I mean a Chinese with American ideology, and still enjoy enormous respect and popularity among faculty and students. As I told you, it's the communist regime, not the Chinese people, who has been trying to impair the image of the United States for the sake of its dictatorship. The average Chinese people, even those most misled, adore America as a synbol of social justice, freedom and democracy, and conceive gratitude to Americans for their helpfulness.


And I'd also like to make a plea upon you: be patient with China and its people and HELP them. Sometimes I even helplessly wonder whether God only helps those who ask. If that is the case, can we still expect salvation of pagan nations like the Chinese and the Japanese, who even don't have the awareness to ask?

Perhaps I need to ask that any person who assumes for himself responsibilities as representative of Jesus Christ be given power and wisdom, so he/she can be patient and benevolent enough to convoy those in dark around us and help with their enlightenment..

Thanks
 
So what about Saudi Arabia? Most of the Pilots in 9/11 where trained in Saudi and were born there. Saudi Arabia is virtually an Absolute Monarchy based on Islamic law. Is it right that this major oil producing county should not have a regime change? It doesn't really sit well with the west. How about Libya, another oil producing country with a dictator in charge? Should we remove him?
The answer is no, because we don't really have the right to do so. The only reason Saddam was removed was because the US government didn't like him and Saddam would not toe the west line and he was easy to remove compared to other middle eastern countries. Imagine the problems if the US had gone into Iran or Saudi Arabia. Saddam was not liked by his neighbouring countries, but Iraq was one of the more 'westernised' middle eastern countries. Women had more equal rights in Iraq than most other middle eastern countries. Women can't even vote in Saudi Arabia. He was not really a religious extremist, his prime minister was a christain. The reason for the war was money and nothing else.
 
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