I have a chance to buy this at a reasonable price. Is it original or a see bee flag.

[mdchachi]

That makes sense. But above one poster said it was unusual not that it was an obvious fake. Are you saying its absolutely fake?

The above poster is not native speaker so he left some benefit of doubt. But if Toritoribe thinks it's fake I would bet on it.

 

[Bingo001]

Ed, I know nothing about Japanese pistols, But let me tell you about Japanese rifles. The early Arisaka rifles had the strongest actions ever made. Yes, they are a variation of the Mauser, Just stronger. P.O. Ackley ( a wild cater) and Jack O Conner ( inventor of the .270) found they could blow up a Mauser but never an Arisaka. They had to re-barrel a few, but never destroyed an Arisaka action. In fact, my favorite hunting rifle is a type 38 Arisaka that I had re-barreled to 260 Remington with a custom stock. Yes, the palm safety was a little strange, but Timney makes a very nice trigger for these guns with a side safety. This gun will hold 4 shots in less than an inch at 200 yards. Now, as for the junk. As the war started to go down hill for the Japanese, the manufacturers cut to many corners and did put out some really bad guns. They can be spotted from a mile away and are known as last ditch rifles. There were lathe marks on the barrels, the safety was just rough welded instead of a machined diamond plate and they probable killed more Japanese solders than the Americans did. I just don't like broad brushed generalizations. In fact, I wouldn't mind finding a Type 99 Arisaka that has been modified (I wouldn't reuin a good military gun) to build a 300 Win Mag.

 

[Dentanmono]

they probable killed more Japanese solders than the Americans did.

Any chance you have any sources to back up this belief? I'm personally pretty doubtful as I've never seen any source that states "last ditch" rifles blew up during proper usage.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I have to admit that I haven't read it, but I have a book written by former Imperial Army Special Executive candidate Urata Kousaku called 誰も書かなかった日本陸軍. Starting on page 332 he talks about the history of the battle flags and the culture around them. For people who are interested in this topic, it might be worth a read.

誰も書かなかった日本陸軍 | 浦田耕作著 | 書籍 | PHP研究所

日本陸軍とは、どんな組織だったのか。総括的には伝えられていない詳細を、元特別幹部候補生として従軍した著者が説き明かす。

www.php.co.jp

 

[edteach]

First off most gun collectors will disagree with you Bing. The K98, 03a3, Enfield and even the Negant were better made rifles with the latter being in the same category as the Arisaka in my opinion as its size is a better club than a rifle. The K98 is the smoothest of the bolts. But the Arisakas and Negants were obsolete when the war began. Most of the Arisaka rifles were very crude and got worse by wars end. Not that they did not shoot. I have never looked for a reliability report as of yet. There is a reason they go for one third of a German or American rifle. But to each his own.

 

[edteach]

BTW, the OBON Society got back with me and said that the flag looks good to them and I can send it to them and they can try to read the faded parts of the flag and see if it can be returned to its owners.

 

[Toritoribe]

BTW, the OBON Society got back with me and said that the flag looks good to them and I can send it to them and they can try to read the faded parts of the flag and see if it can be returned to its owners.

Their reaction is the same as the one in a thread. (Sorry to inform this, but your flag was made more poorly than the flag in the linked thread.) "Presumption of innocence" would be their policy, I think. You need to wait the final result of their investigation, anyway.

 

[edteach]

If its not original or a fake for the military tourist trade why would I keep it? I would send it back for a refund. In order to keep it I would need a good idea its not a fake. I also got this from another expert.
平和の戦士 Heiwa no Senshi, "Soldiers of Peace," sounds incongruous .... but it was a song in 1935:


宇宙輝星軍旗 Space/Cosmos/Universe Brilliant Star Standard [Battle flag of the Brilliant Star of the Universe] -- concur: totally weird; never-ever heard before!

Here's some the expert did not include:

必ず生還ら期せた You are sure to survive

盡 [I think he mis-wrote this -- he put the dots on the bottom!!] "devote oneself completely"

人の武士 man is a warrior. This is cribbed from the second part of a couplet:

• 花は桜木 [the best] flowers are the cherry blossoms,
• 人は武士 [the best] people are the samurai
• Meaning: as the cherry blossom is first among flowers, so is the warrior first among men

必勝 * [something else too faint to read] Certain Victory
戦**竜 Fighting * * Dragon

The balance of writing is too faint to read. I'd say that based on condition, etc., it is authentic to the era; to me, it would not be worth this much effort to make a fake flag.

 

[Toritoribe]

宇宙輝星軍旗

They misread the fourth kanji (the third from the left in the order in your flag). It's 皇, not 星.

必ず生還ら期せた You are sure to survive

They misunderstood kana. Those are all written in katakana on the flag, but they read as a mixture of hiragana and katakana mistakenly. 必ズ生還ヲ期セヨ is the one actually written there, as I already wrote. (By the way, 必ず生還ら期せた doesn't make sense as a Japanese sentence since it's very ungrammatical. They would just guess the meaning.)

人の武士 man is a warrior. This is cribbed from the second part of a couplet:

• 花は桜木 [the best] flowers are the cherry blossoms,
• 人は武士 [the best] people are the samurai

人の武士 and 人は武士 are totally different. 人の武士 can't mean "man is a warrior".

戦**竜

The fourth kanji (the left end in your flag) would be 意, not 竜.


You can tell them my reply. I'm very confident in my interpretation.

 

[edteach]

I highly doubt it is a fake now. It may very well not be written perfectly but its was verified by three different experts as being in different hands, and some of the inscriptions are of odd things. Something not seen on other flags. The fading and wear to the fag all stitch together to me to make it an original. There are a lot of collectors who will throw the baby out with the bath water. There is also provonance but that has to me always meant little. Unless I knew the person who was telling me and knew they did not embellish the story then its pure anecdotal.

The so called See Bee flags were not made taking any time. They were not artists or trying to perfect their knowledge of the Japanese characters, they were in a small business and most all the flags they used if not all were original flags. But the writing is where the issue would be. This one does not really fit into that box. With all the pieces it seems to me to be original. Once I get it I will decide if I want to keep it for my ww2 collection or send to the Obon society. Since I have to actually buy it I think I may keep it, as the Obon society does not reimburse for these flags. I will use a black light to see if I can raise any of the characters.

Or maybe held up to a day light I can see them and copy or photograph them and get them translated.

 

[edteach]

BTW once I get it in hand, I will try to photograph it with black light and natural light and see if I can get the faded parts to show up. This can maybe give more insight to the origins of this flag.

 

[Dentanmono]

it would not be worth this much effort to make a fake flag.

Out of curiosity, did Obon Society say this or is this your opinion?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Interestingly, the song in the Youtube video you linked was a police song, not strictly military.

Also, I was curious, so I did a little digging.

It turns out that 宇宙 can be a family name, although it is very rare. 宇宙 (姓) - Wikipedia
輝皇 can also be a given name, apparently read as きお. 「輝皇（きお）」という全ての名前の姓名判断結果や「輝皇」と書く全てのその他のよみ例や字画数

So it's possible that the proper way to think of 宇宙輝皇軍旗 is Kio Uchu('s) Army Flag or something thereabout.

Just food for thought.

 

[edteach]

Obon said
"The pictures of the flag you sent show a challenging situation because of the faded ink, however our team of experts are the most skilled and experienced people around to do this work.

We will be pleased to handle the flag you have in your possession from the war."

 

[edteach]

As I said above, I am confident its an original flag. I have had several different collectors and experts in this area say the same thing, that its way too complicated to be a fake. That is makes more sense that its original than a fake. I know in most things like this I can never get a 100% of those who know this area to say its 100%. I get that. But so far no one has said anything to make me feel they are correct in this. I have seen German WW2 items thought to be fakes become known as originals when an example of a so called fake shows up in a known pre may 45 group. Suddenly its OK.

 

[Toritoribe]

Well, it's your flag, so it's your choice, after all.

こうして、日本人からすれば明らかに偽造品の寄せ書き日の丸なのに流通し続けるという事態が日本国外でのみ継続するんでしょうね。やれやれ。

 

[edteach]

So no one in Japan has ever been fooled by a fake? I call BS on that. More of a Japanese supremacy thing than reality.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

This thread has turned into a waste of space and energy. Let's move on.

 

[Toritoribe]

誤解を招かぬように最後にもう一点だけ。

So no one in Japan has ever been fooled by a fake? I call BS on that. More of a Japanese supremacy thing than reality.

それ、論点ずれてます。母語なんだからその正誤の解釈に優越性があるのは当然です。