Humanity, Mankind, The animal "Human"

[Haruspex]

Lets see, I will try to present my approach to all this.
First of all, I have to thank Tsuyoiko for her kindness, she kinda proved me that im not entirely nuts.
Now, let us see:
We have this weird creature, the human. When we look at it it definitely looks like an animal, one of the many species. Some people would argue with that, and they often do, but why? How are we different from any other life form? Why are we so obsessed with ourselves? Why are we any better?
I constantly hear that blah-blah, HOWEVER we can't save this guy or yadda yadda, we can't do this because cloning humans and human gene manipulation is forbidden.
Ok, forbidden, but why? Its amazing, they clone other animals on a daily basis, but no, human experiments are forbidden. I don't want to sound like a mad scientist, but undoubtedly sooner or later human experiments will happen, so why delay it?
What is the ultimate goal of medical science? Isn't it making us immortal? Is it not? I know that it has been denied to our generation, and that we are bound to die regardless of whether heaven, God, etc. exists or not, but hey, it doesn't have to continue forever.
We are given roughly 80 years, some more, many less... those years pass so fast, I look at people, I ask them whether they're afraid of death, I ask them if they fear the faithful day, but no, some people don't even notice how short our lives are.
We live in an age where hundreds of self-appointed "leaders" manipulate the masses through their patriotism, philosophies, whatnot, and no one seems to notice that heck, we're living by the same values as we did before, ages ago. Work hard, spend much, be happy, marry, have children, have a happy family, have a wife looking just like a model, retire, have happy grandchildren.
Come on, don't tell me that all this is fine. Don't tell me that when the day comes, the day to die, people can say that: "Yes, I took my share, I took from life what I wanted, I had the choice in life." And I must strongly stress CHOICE, for we've got no choice in life.
Our instincts drive us to lead happy lives full of clichés. Its not freedom, it has nothing to do with freedom.
I refuse to call something freedom that ate itself so deep into us that it makes us call black white.
This is where gene manipulation comes into the picture. Day after day they decipher more of our genetic system and we could, we might be able to terminate the genes that drag us down to this primal level of unconscious self-deceiving.
But no, its a no go, we can't, how cool.
The tomato that I eat every morning with my omlette, even that tomato is gene manipulated, but no, creating a better human species? Unheard of, we can't allow that, its wrong.
Just who has the right to decide what is right and what is wrong? Some officer jerk drooling over soap operas after working 14 hours a day, grasping his beer with the fierceness of the mother tiger. Makes me laugh.
There are like six billion humans on the surface of the world, terrible if you ask me. A quarter of us would be enough in my opinion, and many others are aware of this as well, but yet again, the barriers of almighty stupidity simply cannot be penetrated.
We make ourselves suffer and suffer.
We pollute the waters, the soil, the air, we pollute it all very democratically, we kill our kin without a second thought, but genetic manipulation is inhuman and cruel.
But seeking a way to terminate the genes responsible for breeding is a crime eh? Why?
Just imagine a world where people are almost immortal. They live hundreds of years, they have a million choice, they can choose MORE paths in life. They have the privilege to correct mistakes. The true Poeta Doctus could be born, a society one step closer to what the human mind would consider ideal.
Wouldn't it be better if our numbers slowly decreased? If we just slowly ceased to have so many children. We could solve so many problems this way, but first of all, we could strike down a mighty foe, environmental pollution.
And this would only the the first step, with a free mind the new superior human could think in hundreds of dimensions, with a free will.

Well this is it for now, awaiting your opinions.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Thank you Derfel ^_^

Let me digest this a bit - it deserves a well thought out answer, so I'll come back later. I'm at work right now.

 

[Kinsao]

Are you saying it would be better for humans to breed less? Or live longer? Or both?

What about yourself, do you consider that you have free will, since you are thinking your way through these problems?

Sorry, I have not time to properly think of a full answer to all your points, only raising further questions. :sorry:

 

[Haruspex]

Breed less, live more, and no, I don't have a free will either, but somehow I find it irritating, so thats a step further, nah, a half one, but its still something.

 

[Mycernius]

What would you do with immortality?

 

[MadamePapillon]

Gene manipulation is in it's infancy, scientist are just beginning to grasp what can be done and what that might imply for all of us.
At this point I think that rushing the issue and putting cloned meat on the shelves, genetically enhancing fruit and manipulating human genetics is jumping in to the proverbial shark infested waters.

There is no way to tell what might happen. IMO, this is just another example of humans trying to play god. Like a child with a gun, it looks like a shiny new toy until you blow your foot off with it.

 

[Haruspex]

What would you do with immortality?

Certainly more than without it.


In my opinion GM shouldn't come out of the labs, I personally don't want to eat messed up food if at all possible, but still its a great thing promising more control over ourselves in the future. We should concentrate on that aspect.

 

[Sarapva]

How are we different from any other life form? Why are we so obsessed with ourselves? Why are we any better?

... we might be able to terminate the genes that drag us down to this primal level of unconscious self-deceiving.

First of all, the arguments about what makes humans different from other animal species is that we're capable of empathy. I know animals can be in tune with other animals' and humans' emotions, but I don't know of any studies or reports that show animals can feel what another animal or human feels and practice compassion.

About self-deceiving - this is something that only intelligent species would be able to do. I think maybe you're hitting on "surface versus substance" here. We humans do tend to live a "surface" life and are taught to accept certain ways of living and doing things. But each of us can question this and decide for ourselves what we think is important and not, and whether we want to live our lives one way or another.

I believe that physical life is the "surface" and that death is the "substance", what's underneath the surface. I think life and death are actually the opposite - that physical life is more of a "death" and when we die we go back to our real lives.

 

[Rioneru]

We have this weird creature, the human. When we look at it it definitely looks like an animal, one of the many species. Some people would argue with that, and they often do, but why? How are we different from any other life form? Why are we so obsessed with ourselves? Why are we any better?
I constantly hear that blah-blah, HOWEVER we can't save this guy or yadda yadda, we can't do this because cloning humans and human gene manipulation is forbidden.

I don't think its so much a question of "how are we different?", but rather why our difference from other animals makes us believe we are in a higher position. Certainly, with all of this technology, empathy, intellect, etc. that we harp on, no other animal has caused as much damage as we have to ourselves, other animals, and the world as a whole.

It seems to me that although experimentation on animals and humans are awfully taboo in most circles, they are still very much practiced. When I consider animals, I think of multiple products that are tested (despite the large amounts of "non-animal tested" disclaimers), and for humans, think medication and advertisement. It sounds like you want more of a step forward for human kind, but also a toning down of human instincts.

For those many men who want to spread their genes freely, we want to give them longer lives....why? I really couldn't understand the weighing factor between what seems to be your dislike of over-population, but then having people live longer.

What is the ultimate goal of medical science? Isn't it making us immortal? Is it not? I know that it has been denied to our generation, and that we are bound to die regardless of whether heaven, God, etc. exists or not, but hey, it doesn't have to continue forever.

I never thought of medicine as a way to immortality, nor it ever being its intent. I've always considered medicine as essentially dealing with our mortality and frailty as a remedy, not as a strive towards effacing mortality. No series of great minds or plant life on this Earth can ever combat mortality. Humans have been at the mercy of Nature since our very existence and I don't see that ever changing.

Our instincts drive us to lead happy lives full of clichés. Its not freedom, it has nothing to do with freedom.
I refuse to call something freedom that ate itself so deep into us that it makes us call black white.

This sounds like more a philosophical issue. Many dedicate their lives to finding the "truth" and "meaning" in life. Would the lengthening of life really bring one or all closer to objective truth and in what sense?

This is where gene manipulation comes into the picture. Day after day they decipher more of our genetic system and we could, we might be able to terminate the genes that drag us down to this primal level of unconscious self-deceiving.

The sad part is, there are no "self-deceiving" genes to extract. We are what we are because it is our nature to be. To pull out a lion's teeth in hopes of making it a herbivore is pointless. I think you and I wrestle with the same issues in our minds. My coping tools would be some aspects of Buddhism and Existentialism. I don't know if there is such a thing as pure truth or "the way", but to try and mend human error by gene manipulation and extraction hardly sounds feasible.

Actually, your proposal sounds a lot like eugenics. I mean, who would be the first group to step up and volunteer their children and lineage for sacrifice for that 25% world population goal? I must say its unreal...

 

[Haruspex]

You might say that its unreal, and yes, in the 21st century it truly is, but you know, "Never say never".

 

[Rioneru]

Gene manipulation is in it's infancy, scientist are just beginning to grasp what can be done and what that might imply for all of us.
At this point I think that rushing the issue and putting cloned meat on the shelves, genetically enhancing fruit and manipulating human genetics is jumping in to the proverbial shark infested waters.
There is no way to tell what might happen. IMO, this is just another example of humans trying to play god. Like a child with a gun, it looks like a shiny new toy until you blow your foot off with it.

Agreed. We work tirelessly to discover beyond Earth and our own genetic mysteries and neglect poverty, world pollution, wars...pretty much human misery. What are we running from, or rather, what are we rushing to?

 

[thatsme]

we are all on the same boat

I totally agree that we don't have the freedom you are talking about.
But I also beileve that there are different level of freedom.

I am sure that many Human species feel/beileve that have the free choice, is not up to me to impose my beilef to them, you might say that there is nothing wrong to express my opinion, but sometime expressing what you think that those people have or not a choice can only create confrontation.

Anyway, Since we are just Human how can we comprehend what is beyond our Human understanding?

Human immortality? no thanks, I don't even think that life is short at all, on the contrary, it is bloody long, here you have it not all human feel the same.

I am looking to go or travel into another dimention or if there is nothing after this, fine too.

Peace to all

 

[Revenant]

Free will, or what we have of free will, is limited by experience, and the amount of control we have over our attention. Attention it seems is the agent of change. How many can direct, completely focus, and maintain that focus on a great variety of stimuli for long periods of time? Try to completely keep your attention on your breath for five minutes? Does your attention wander to thoughts, emotions, or external stimuli often? That would indicate the amount of control you have over your agent of change. It takes the attention to carefully consider, change thoughts and feelings, and to learn new knowledge and skills. It is as some neuroscientific findings have found, probably the only way one can intentionally effect large and permanent change.

New findings are the only way we're going to progress as humans, and fortunately some of those findings are also beginning to point out what the sages and saints have been telling us for centuries. That is the need for compassion, tolerance, and the other noble qualities.

The genetic mysteries are important to a brighter future, and some of the findings may help in ways we never imagined.

 

[Mycernius]

Certainly more than without it.

Do you really want to live forever? A longer lifespan, yes, but forever?

 

[Haruspex]

Do you really want to live forever? A longer lifespan, yes, but forever?

I don't know, but its not like I couldn't end my life when I get bored of it.
By forever I just mean the potential.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

How are we different from any other life form? Why are we so obsessed with ourselves? Why are we any better?

I don't think we are different, at least not in value. Sure, we have different qualities, we can do some things other animals can't, but they can do some things we can't too.

I don't want to sound like a mad scientist, but undoubtedly sooner or later human experiments will happen, so why delay it?

There is a lot of stem cell research going on, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say that human experiments are being delayed. Do you mean cloning whole humans?

What is the ultimate goal of medical science? Isn't it making us immortal? Is it not?

I don't think that's the goal. I think improving our quality of life is the goal.

And I must strongly stress CHOICE, for we've got no choice in life.
Our instincts drive us to lead happy lives full of clichés. Its not freedom, it has nothing to do with freedom.

I agree, we don't have much free will. I think sometimes we have a limited choice between a few mundane alternatives. But I don't think that's free will. If I'm trying to decide whether to eat blackcurrant yoghurt or vanilla, I think the choice is entirely mine. But if I'm trying to decide whether to stay with my husband in the UK or run away to Borneo to be with another man, I have no choice at all. I'm constrained by my character, which is determined by my genes and my experiences. And I'm constrained by my circumstances, which came about because of an accumulation of events, most of which I had little choice in because of the constraints existing back then.

Depending on your particular character, some people probably have more free will than others. But no-one has absolute freedom. If we did, Mars Man and I would be living it up on the red planet right about now ;-)

This is where gene manipulation comes into the picture. Day after day they decipher more of our genetic system and we could, we might be able to terminate the genes that drag us down to this primal level of unconscious self-deceiving.

Even when we know precisely what every gene does, which I'm confident we will, sooner or later, that doesn't mean we will be able to manipulate them. Even if we could, it wouldn't necessarily be the best course. As I mentioned in the Brain thread, I have some mental illnesses that could one day be cured with gene manipulation, since they're almost certainly at least partly genetic. But I've come to terms with these illnesses and I don't want to be cured.

The world might be a poorer place if you eliminate all human 'flaws'. Einstein was dyslexic, Beethoven was bipolar, Abraham Lincoln suffered from severe depression, John Nash is schizophrenic. Would these people have excelled in their fields without those illnesses? I doubt it, since every aspect of a person goes to make them what they are.

The tomato that I eat every morning with my omlette, even that tomato is gene manipulated, but no, creating a better human species? Unheard of, we can't allow that, its wrong.

What do you mean by 'better'? If you want to make a 'better' human you have to decide what you mean by better. But who gets to decide? Nice can of worms right there ;-)

Just who has the right to decide what is right and what is wrong?

The same person who gets to decide what makes a better human? ;-)

There are like six billion humans on the surface of the world, terrible if you ask me. A quarter of us would be enough in my opinion, and many others are aware of this as well, but yet again, the barriers of almighty stupidity simply cannot be penetrated.

I agree, the Earth's population is probably unsustainable at its current rate of growth. But how do you slow it? Legislate against people having more than one child? Look what happened in China when they did that.

But seeking a way to terminate the genes responsible for breeding is a crime eh? Why?

Read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley.

I think the best anyone with a big idea can do is live that ideal in their own lives. Think of all the great thinkers we admire. They lived their dream and motivated others by example. Even if free will doesn't really exist, we act like it does because the world is a better place that way. Acknowledge that you have no choice, but fight as if you do. That's how progress is made.

 

[Kinsao]

I think we do have free will. You can just as much choose to run away to a guy in Borneo as you can choose to eat vanilla yoghurt. It is still your choice; you can do it. Simply, you have to accept the consequences, which may influence you not to make that choice.

Sure, there are some things we don't have a choice about. If I am breathing polluted air, I don't have a choice about that (although I could always shift myself somewhere cleaner, but that might not be easy ;-)). But the polluted air is a consequence of a series of people's choices, elsewhere - people's choices to travel in certain ways, or sell certain fuels, etc. etc... right on down the line. A gradual series of people's choices shapes things to be the way they are. So although we don't have individual choices about everything, free will exists.

 

[Revenant]

I suppose you could try proving free will by proving that people could by their own volition sit on a hot stove for a minute, and then see how many people have truly free will.

 

[Void]

We have this weird creature, the human. When we look at it it definitely looks like an animal, one of the many species. Some people would argue with that, and they often do, but why? How are we different from any other life form? Why are we so obsessed with ourselves? Why are we any better?

We ARE different. The difference is in our brain, in second signal system, in second Nature (this is how sometimes Culture is called) and such.
Why we are so obsessed with ourselves? Once again – due to the structure of our brain. We posses reflection, and even more – we can reflect on what we reflect Certainly, this is simplified explanation, but it gives some food for thought.
Better? Worse? Maybe. The problem is that this comparative can`t be just used in general. We are better or worse in/at smth. Besides, what the pattern of usage – just in terms of superiority, or in terms of morality and other vague concepts? Such question simply doesn`t make much of a sense.

Ok, forbidden, but why? Its amazing, they clone other animals on a daily basis, but no, human experiments are forbidden. I don't want to sound like a mad scientist, but undoubtedly sooner or later human experiments will happen, so why delay it?

Why delay? For various moral issues, for example. Personally, would you volunteer to be a guinea pig in such experiments? I wouldn`t, many people I know would neither. And such research is pointless without experiments

What is the ultimate goal of medical science? Isn't it making us immortal? Is it not? I know that it has been denied to our generation, and that we are bound to die regardless of whether heaven, God, etc. exists or not, but hey, it doesn't have to continue forever.

We ARE bound to die. What is only questionable – the length of our life as individuals and as species. It seems to be in the scripts of this universe – everything has its beginning and its end.

but no, some people don't even notice how short our lives are.

Perhaps, their life is so intense that they don`t have time to deplore the length of their staying here?

We live in an age where hundreds of self-appointed "leaders" manipulate the masses through their patriotism, philosophies, whatnot, and no one seems to notice that heck, we're living by the same values as we did before, ages ago. Work hard, spend much, be happy, marry, have children, have a happy family, have a wife looking just like a model, retire, have happy grandchildren.

No one seems to notice? Looks like you are not paying proper attention to the world around you. People to notice this and aware of this clichés, starting with known scientists and ending with my nextdoor neighbor Vanya.

And I must strongly stress CHOICE, for we've got no choice in life. Our instincts drive us to lead happy lives full of clichés. Its not freedom, it has nothing to do with freedom.

It depends a lot on your definition of ﾂ"freedomﾂ" and ﾂ"choiceﾂ". BTW, human beings often and consciously go against their instincts (what animal rarely do if ever)

There are like six billion humans on the surface of the world, terrible if you ask me. A quarter of us would be enough in my opinion, and many others are aware of this as well, but yet again, the barriers of almighty stupidity simply cannot be penetrated.

Golden billion and suchﾂ… Grhmﾂ… Would you like to be a part of this ¾ altogether with your relatives, friends and dear ones? I don`t, so many others and that`s why there are 6 billions (apart from all other reasons)

But seeking a way to terminate the genes responsible for breeding is a crime eh? Why?

Why? Don`t know about crime, but partly because there are other opportunities to slow down birth rates

And this would only the the first step, with a free mind the new superior human could think in hundreds of dimensions, with a free will.

So, what is free mind and free will (and ﾂ"freeﾂ" itself) ?

And take notice of the last passage in Tsuyoiko`s post above