How terrible!Japanese~look and listen.

hey Lexico
thanks for looking out for me
i try not to look down on people although i do sometimes along with my many other mistakes
and i wasnt trying to blame chinese people for their situation
that wasnt the point of the argument
mostly these are circumstances

but i do think that chinese people are to some extent responsible for this situation in the same way they are responsible for the many improvements that are occuring in china today (external forces aside)

a side note
have you read the book - guns, germs and steel
i feel i learned a lot from this book
even if the information provided is not all true (i dont know - im not an anthropologist) the way of thinking should be admired
the way it erases notions of inferiority and superiority of peoples

That's the fourth time I've seen that book mentioned in online discussion, I've seen the PBS special but I think it's time for a trip to the bookstore!

I just have a question, since Schroeder's kneel was brought up as the sole reason for the world's forgiveness, would the same work for Japan? If Koizumi knelt down and gave a formal apology in dogeza would everything be alright then?

Of the Japanese people I talked to in my short time there, all of them felt sorry for the actions Japan took in the first half of the 20th century, but many also felt tired of being continually blamed for the past. I was also told that several times Japanese leaders have apologized publicly for the invasion of China. They mentioned names but I can't recall them now. None were as formal as dogeza, which has prompted me to wonder whether anyone has in fact made a kneeling apology to the countries that suffered under Japan's rule in the 30's and 40's.

nice gaijin said:

That's the fourth time I've seen that book mentioned in online discussion, I've seen the PBS special but I think it's time for a trip to the bookstore !

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Maybe I should get a copy, too !

I just have a question, since Schroeder's kneel was brought up as the sole reason for the world's forgiveness, would the same work for Japan? If Koizumi knelt down and gave a formal apology in dogeza would everything be alright then ?

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Of course you must be kidding, nice gaijin ! How could a kneeling apology itself wash away all the sins of bloody murder and rape of at least 12 Asian nations, 200 thousand sex-slaves, 20 thousand human experiment subjects, 300,000 and some civilians and POW's mowed down or buried alive in Nanjing, several hundreds of thousands that have been killed by bio/chmeical weapons to list a few ?

I believe C. Schroeder's kneeling before the holocaust victims was mentioned as a representative and symbolic act of admission and willful decision to bear the hurt and responsibility, as an act seeking forgiveness and atonement for his prior gov't/military's crimes.

To my knowledge Japan has offically apologised 17 times. No gov't official however ever knelt in repentance to the victims of IJ/IJA. I also recal Japan's MOFA head complained that it had apologised more times than Germany. I found that comment unnecessary and arrogant, which only betrays the insincerity of the prior apologies at least in ..'s view.

Of the Japanese people I talked to in my short time there, all of them felt sorry for the actions Japan took in the first half of the 20th century,...

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I don't doubt that, but...

but many also felt tired of being continually blamed for the past.

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that tire is, as far as I understand, part of the mending, healing process, esp. in Asian cultures; the Japanese, however westernised, should be able to see that quite clearly.

I was also told that several times Japanese leaders have apologized publicly for the invasion of China. They mentioned names but I can't recall them now. None were as formal as dogeza, which has prompted me to wonder whether anyone has in fact made a kneeling apology to the countries that suffered under Japan's rule in the 30's and 40's.

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... I have read of two individuals who came to apologise. One ex-IJA solder came to Lugou qioa Bridge and knelt before the Chinese people; one grandson of a samurai assassin of the Korean Queen Minbi also came to Korea and knelt before her grave for the crime of his grandfather. It was sad, moving, and again sad, that only these individuals and other courageous citizens of modern Japan are capable of reflecting on the regretful past, while the population votes obviously self-glorifying politicians of Imperial Japan into their gov't. Whom to trust ?

lexico said:

Of course you must be kidding, nice gaijin ! How could a kneeling apology itself wash away all the sins of bloody murder and rape of at least 12 Asian nations, 200 thousand sex-slaves, 20 thousand human experiment subjects, 300,000 and some civilians and POW's mowed down or buried alive in Nanjing, several hundreds of thousands that have been killed by bio/chmeical weapons to list a few ?
Kneeling was mentioned as a representative and symbolic act of admission and willful decision to bear the hurt and responsibility that C. Schroeder's prior gov't/military representing then German nation.

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That's exactly my point, what would it take to quell the attitude that spawns the "shame on you, Japan" threads? obviously an apology, no matter how sincere, doesn't make up for what's been done. Nothing can, there's no taking back the past. In this case, it seems that the wounds are still too fresh and too deep to heal. I hope I'll live to see the end of the strained relations between Japan and the rest of Asia.

So true, nice gaijin. And yet that does not invalidate demands for justice. That does not approve insensitive demeanor coming from Japan. I'd like to quote one passage totally out of context:

"I played a flute in the marketplace, but you would not dance to my tune."
"Then I played a dirge, but you would not weep for the deceased."

Perhaps this might help, also.

"When a stranger asks for your cloak, also give him your underwear."
"If he asks you to walk a mile together, walk him all the way home."

If treating a total stranger in such graciousness is possible, what of treating a friend, or someone you owe a sincere debt ?

nice gaijin said:

I just have a question, since Schroeder's kneel was brought up as the sole reason for the world's forgiveness, would the same work for Japan? If Koizumi knelt down and gave a formal apology in dogeza would everything be alright then?

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Wow! I bet it would help A GREAT LOT if he does so. mmmm...Good suggestion! And it would be better if you let him know this.
To kneel down DOES in some sense reflect sincerety, I think. At least it's a pretty practical way to express that.

But I'm a little bit pessimistic about this: Koizumi will never do that. Here's my reasoning:
For there exists:
1. As we all know that: "A -> B" equals to "not(B) -> not(A)";
2. To kneel down --in some sense--> To be sincere;
3. Japan government is, at least in many Asian's eyes, not sincere;
Then we can draw a conclusion as follows:
Koizumi will never kneel down.

innerfire said:

Wow! I bet it would help A GREAT LOT if he does so. mmmm...Good suggestion! And it would be better if you let him know this.
To kneel down DOES in some sense reflect sincerety, I think. At least it's a pretty practical way to express that.

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It's wonderful if that happens: finally I begin to see a remedy in the horizon however far off.

But I'm a little bit pessimistic about this: Koizumi will never do that. Here's my reasoning:
For there exists:
1. As we all know that: "A -> B" equals to "not(B) -> not(A)";
2. To kneel down --in some sense--> To be sincere;
3. Japan government is, at least in many Asian's eyes, not sincere;
Then we can draw a conclusion as follows:
Koizumi will never kneel down.

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What a great way to approach our problem employing mathematical logic. I wonder if this is equivalent to your reasoning:

theorem1 said:

A sincere person can apologise kneeling down.

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theorem2 said:

Given theorem1 that a sincere person can apologise kneeling down, if p1, then q1, where
p1: Mr. Koizumi is a sincere person,
q1: Mr. Koizumi apologises kneeling down.

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Given that theorem 1 is true, if p1 then q1; in mathematical symbols, theorem1; p1 --> q1.
The truth value

T(theorem2) = T(theorem1; p1-->q1)

is equivalent to the truth value

T(T(theorem1)^T(p1-->q1)) = T(T(theorem1)^(~p1 V q1)).--equation (a)

But there is evidence contrary to p1,-- evidence (b)
so the truth value

T(theorem1) = F; -- value (c)

T(p1)=F, ie. T(~p1)=T. -- value (d)

Although T(q1) is undecided because we don't know if q1 will happen, we may still logically obtain truth value

T(theorem2) = T(theorem1; p1-->q1)

by logical calculations with are basically substitutions of logical equivalents.

T(theorem2)
=T(theorem1; p1-->q1)
=T(T(theorem1)^(~p1 V q1)) -- equation (a)
=T(theorem1)^T(~p1 V q1)
=****F****^(**T**V*?*) -- values (c), (d)
=F^T
=F

It has been shown that whether Mr. Koizumi kneels down in apology to the Chinese people or not, theorem 2 will always be false; the cause of it is suspected to be what is known as evidence (b); hence we arrive at the following conclusion.

theorem3 said:

Given theorem1 that a sincere person can apologise kneeling down, if p2, then q2, where
p2: Mr. Koizumi is a not a sincere person,
q2: It makes no difference whether Mr. Koizumi apologises kneeling down or not.

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*'s were used for formatting purpose only.

In conclusion I feel obliged to raise the essential yet tricky question; given the logical impossiblity that without sincerity it can never be true to apologise kneeling down and be fully trusted, should Mr. Koizumi still apoogise kneeling down before the victims, relatives, places of aggression, graveyards, and victimised nations ? I would say he should still try; that is the whole point of going through the process of repentance, forgiveness, and ultimately atonement if you will. Human existence is too precious to be wasted on a quality of emptiness.

Wow Lexico! I really begin to admire you...

Heheﾂ，innerfire,Welcome to this forum!! It is pleasure to see another Chinese friend who stand in my side~!

Agree with you !Lexico is the guy who knowledgeable and sober.
and I must say your English is really good~ : )