How Far Are You Western-ized ?

[macadamia_cocoa]

I don't think it's as much as a problem as everyone is making it out to be. Westernization and traditionalism can co-exist easily.

 

[Sirius2B]

Actually I don't see how Turkey is torn apart. At least I know a lot of Turkish people who prefer living in modern Istanbul but in the traditional turkgerman quarters of Berlin or the Ruhrarea. And Turkey has been a modern state since Atatﾃｼrk's reform anyways, hasn't it?

Why if so many Turks are living in Kreuzberg, and all other places, does Germany do not see an opportunity in the entrance of Turkey in the E.U.?
Certainly, one thing is the voting weight that Turkey will have... but then, Germany could be able to ally (theoretically) itself with Turkey like no other country.

It is bad that the USA sees here instead an opportunity weight more, gain more influence more in Turkey given current Germany's position.

But of course, are things very distant to me. I grasp them just superficially.
Ah! Although much USA influence in Turkey may prove difficult too... specially after these recently lovely Turkish marvels as "Polat Alemdar gegen das Vampirisches Reich" (my own title ;D ), und den Roman: "Stahlgewitter".
Regards.

I don't think it's as much as a problem as everyone is making it out to be. Westernization and traditionalism can co-exist easily.

They should... and in fact, as an example, Japan did in my opinion wonders regarding that. But not everyone has that success.
Regards.

 

[Jiyuu]

1) You live in a country that has been systematically denying a genocide. You could have been indoctrinated from birth, for all I know. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which an open and honest discussion about subjects like these is available. Most people and scientist in western countries, Russia and even a growing number of people in your country believe that this was indeed genocide.
2) So you agree that Turkey has a problem when is comes to Human Rights?
3)This is the first time I've read anyting about a massacre of Turks by the EOKA. The invasion of parts of Cyprus by Turkey was a cunning way to gain territory. Claiming to uphold the Treaty of Guarantee.

1) Mr. ludoNL, you're not the first one to defend that lie harsher than an Armenian. No one told me about, none of us was, neither at home nor at schools, what Armenian Genocide is all about. I've been researching for around 2 years on this issue. If someone is indoctrinated from birth, sorry, but it seems you and people like you, 'cause they can't stand the inexistence of Armenian Genocide in which way ever it is opposed -Intellectual or primitive. I've always said that: We are dictated to accept a lie.

Believe me. There are so many that say "You have killed them all! Accept it! You can not say anything!" (yes as blunt as this). Please don't be one of them. We have been introduced the European people being open-minded. Or is it the same as all people close themselves to anything when they do not want to hear? Literally Turkish saying "since it does not benefit his business" ?

People believe what they want to believe. This does not change anywhere. Let me finish this part about Armenian Issue with this quote:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

Joseph Goebbels

2) We had worse. It's better. Though it's no nightmare scenario here, we still have a lot of room for improvement on the human rights matter. Do you think I'm a go-go-Turkey who came here to tell the good and deny everything bad about it ?

3) Really cunning way indeed. Why do they have their own flags and own state then, there in the Northern part? Were the masterminds behind this cunning plan dumb enough not to claim it as a part of Turkey after the operation?

It does not surprise me what you don't hear about what ever is done to Turks. We have never been talented crybabies.

Whole old generation will tell you a lot what was happening those days in Cyprus. Ok ok. You don't want to know.. Ok. Nothing new..It was made up and indoctrinated as well..Ok..There you have it.. We had the best cunning plan of all, you should see how we are benefiting the Northern part of Cyprus indeed. We have been so over-prosperous since that filthy invasion that we have enough money to donate even to the Rum side of the island.

Treaty of Guarantee was intended to guarantee the guard Turk's lives there. And once it was needed, it was executed.

Sirius2B,

Ah that "Valley of the Wolves" series and the movie. It was a self-proclaimed victory after doing the same to US soldiers in the movie, what had actually been done to 11 Turkish soldiers in N. Iraq some time ago...For those who like VotW..Not me..I don't see such cheap nationalist any beneficial at all.

But for sure, it is a LED light of the reaction against USA. Several statistics lately proved that Turkey has the population that dislikes USA the most around the Middle East. Especially during and after N. Iraq invasion, several occassion granted the growth of this dislike even more. Personally I'm not a fan of USA's policy as well. Actually American way of policy always dragged the Middle East into chaos. They are now fighting against those they had raised to fight against Soviets during the Cold War, Mullahs to be specific, Osama was one of them. They never and ever bring peace to somewhere. But they love sticking their noses everywhere pretending to be doing so.

Anyways..

Um so, here it goes: Do Traditionalism and Modernism co-exist in Japan peacefully ?

 

[Dr. J. M.]

Sorry, I will skip completedly the episode of Turko-Armenian history, and return to the original theme.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I will separate the terms "Modernization" from "Westernization".
Both Turkey and Japan are both "modernizing" since more than a Century ago... and I think is good...
Now, "Westernization" is a term with trick... who says if one country is "western" or not?
Look at the shameful game regarding the entrance of Turkey in Europe... speaking at convenience in terms of race and religion ("Europe as Christian Civilization...") when they so fit.
If well the material adventages in entering the E.U. cannot be overlooked... I feel like I want to tell Turkey... "say to them: Go to hell!... There is a lot of space for Turkey interests in Central Asia".
I repeat: It is a term with trick... they say that you are "westernized" if you, due your own work and whatever your culture, are rich and successful. On the other hand, Christian people like Russians will never become "westernized" until Corporations and polititians in rich countries says so.
See all that garbage about "Japan as a Westen Country"... if you are rich and successful, and well integrated in World Economy, doesn't matter that your deep history has nothing to do with a Western European, Greek-Roman, Judeo-Christian, Humanistic, etcetera, supposed cultural background that again, supposedly form the core of Western Civilization.
Why we don't simple say "You are in the club of economicaly successful countries".
Soon, even China one day may be "a Westen country".
I believe that such a term "Westernization" leads only to confusion, and some negative effects in traditional cultures. Maybe not everything traditional everywhere is desirable... but some things that have matured during centuries in a given place, should not be so easily changed for a bottle of Coke and a shirt with Mike Jordan.
I am myself, not "Westernized" and don't want to be, not now and probably not never.
Regards.

You've got an interesting definition of what 'Westernization' is supposed to be. According to you every nation will be called 'Western' as soon as they reach a certain amount of wealth, regardless of cultural background . Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture. Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China. But South America which isn't that rich is considered Western by definition.

I will not comment on the EU thing because that's offtopic.
And I will not comment on Jiyuu's caricature of the Armenia incident, for the same reason I do not debate with Holocaust deniers: I don't debate with liars.

 

[Elizabeth]

They should... and in fact, as an example, Japan did in my opinion wonders regarding that. But not everyone has that success.
Regards.

In the case of Japan, this manifests itself by saying they should have a non-Western mentality, anti-Western bias and general hostility to foreigners....all of which are basically true. Not by design as much as by a deep seated awareness of and pride in the uniqueness, often misplaced, of their own culture.

It's true a lot of places, though, to a somewhat lesser extent I think. The desire for American products and lifestyle but strong reservations about importing its government and the individualism or materialism of its people. ☝

 

[Dr. J. M.]

The desire for American products and lifestyle but strong reservations about importing its government and the individualism or materialism of its people. ☝

It seems to that most Japanese are more materialistic than many Westerners.

 

[Elizabeth]

It seems to that most Japanese are more materialistic than many Westerners.

Yeah, everyone has to be the same so they have to have everything their friends have. But still I think social relationships are hugely more important to the well-being of most Japanese compared to Americans (and some Europeans) which is a very good thing imo. You can't say they'll never be a Western country though....

 

[Dr. J. M.]

Yeah, everyone has to be the same so they have to have everything their friends have. But still I think social relationships are hugely more important to the well-being of most Japanese compared to Americans (and some Europeans) which is a very good thing imo. You can't say they'll never be a Western country though....

Probably you are right about the social relations.
And yes, you're certainly right that I can't say never because noone knows for sure. But Japan becoming a genuine Western country is nonetheless pretty improbable.

 

[Elizabeth]

Probably you are right about the social relations.
And yes, you're certainly right that I can't say never because noone knows for sure. But Japan becoming a genuine Western country is nonetheless pretty improbable.

You can't say that so quickly or flatly. In terms of political and business governance, there is grass-root democratic opposition to the ruling elites of the post war that has been born just since the economic collapse of the early 1990's. Opinionmongering, public debate, plus a greater sense of personal freedom and outspokenness are becoming more and more accepted as the norm if not easily embraced. There will always be kimonos and caligraphy but the mentality is slowly becoming ever more similar to a so-called "Western" mindset or outlook on life.

 

[Jiyuu]

And I will not comment on Jiyuu's caricature of the Armenia incident, for the same reason I do not debate with Holocaust deniers: I don't debate with liars.

Meh..Fine buddy. Just don't over-dramatize the lies you have ben convinced to. I am well accustomed to this degree of Armenian Genocide fanaticism.

If only it was real so that I'd not hesitate to apologize.

Whatever, let's leave it here. Sorry for de-railing my own topic.

 

[Dr. J. M.]

You can't say that so quickly or flatly. In terms of political and business governance, there is grass-root democratic opposition to the ruling elites of the post war that has been born just since the economic collapse of the early 1990's. Opinionmongering, public debate, plus a greater sense of personal freedom and outspokenness are becoming more and more accepted as the norm if not easily embraced. There will always be kimonos and caligraphy but the mentality is slowly becoming ever more similar to a so-called "Western" mindset or outlook on life.

I guess there's a definition problem... Westernization as I define it includes (but is not limited to) foremostly the cultural adoption of Western values and so forth. Nevertheless even very Westernized countries may never become 'Western' as such, because for me these countries have to derive from the West. (So, unless all or the vast majority of the native Japanese are either killed off or driven out, Japan won't become a Western country...).
Therefore I hope Japan will remain an Eastern country (with or without Western mindset.) [But of course your definition is also valid and may include Japan as Western country (in the future)]

Meh..Fine buddy. Just don't over-dramatize the lies you have ben convinced to

Same goes for you.

I am well accustomed to this degree of Armenian Genocide fanaticism

As am I to Holocaust and other genocide deniers.

If only it was real so that I'd not hesitate to apologize.

I guess Holocaust deniers would say the same.

Whatever, let's leave it here.

Agreed.

 

[Jiyuu]

I guess Holocaust deniers would say the same.

Every soul is valuable and has the right to live. I feel the grief of loss around the 1 million Armenians in that "unfortunate act of revenge" (the way I described it above) and feel sorry for it.

The time will come and they will admit what they had done too, completing the remaining part of the mutual share of grief..

Closed.

 

[Sirius2B]

According to you every nation will be called 'Western' as soon as they reach a certain amount of wealth, regardless of cultural background .

What I wanted to say, is exactly the other way around. Read again... or correct me if my idea was expressed so confusedly that really not only you but everyone that read it will fail to understand what I wanted to express.

Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture.

This is a mild definition that actually may work somehow. But there is also the "strong" version, like...

Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China.

In a positive sense... having institutions and values that do not conflict with what we positively assume is "Westerness" (otherwise, Japanse culture will not will be so highly regarded in the West)... but its attractiveness and "Enlightment", so to speak, is not in the larger part results of what Westerners did or offered, as they maybe "Eurocentrically" maight think.
Regarding of what you said about this other area, "Latin America" ( )... well, here is an example of what I said about the recent hypocrecy of the term "Westernization".... look for example the books of Samuel Huntington (he theaches racism in Harvard)... saying that Latin America has a "Latin culture", and therefore it is not "Western" ( ).

(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina ).

In reality, his racist thinking makes no sense, and only reached notoriety for coincidence, with the events since 2001.

I wonder if there we come up with a definition of "Westerness" that is honest and not influenced by partial or politically motivated.

In any case... Latin America is a very diverse region. Effectively Argentina, Uruguay and parts of Chile, Brazil, Venezuela, etc. are populated from people of pure European ancestry and culture... whereas in Mexico, Peru, and other parts, its is ethnically and in great part culturally more diverse.

Regards.

P.S.

Yes, traditional Japanese Culture is highly regarded abroad and of course, inside Japan... which do not means that many Japanese are not pretty alienated with themselves as a result of "modernity", "westernization", or whatever we want to call it.

 

[Dr. J. M.]

What I wanted to say, is exactly the other way around. Read again... or correct me if my idea was expressed so confusedly that really not only you but everyone that read it will fail to understand what I wanted to express.

Yeah, I guess I got that wrong.

"Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture."
This is a mild definition that actually may work somehow. But there is also the "strong" version, like... "Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China."

I've pointed out that there's a difference between "Western country" and "Westernized country" =)

In a positive sense... having institutions and values that do not conflict with what we positively assume is "Westerness" (otherwise, Japanse culture will not will be so highly regarded in the West)... but its attractiveness and "Enlightment", so to speak, is not in the larger part results of what Westerners did or offered, as they maybe "Eurocentrically" maight think.

What is it then?

Regarding of what you said about this other area, "Latin America" ( )...

Sorry, Latin America is most commonly translated as "Süd-Amerika" in German which means literally "South America", of course "Latein-Amerika" exists as well but it is not used as often.

well, here is an example of what I said about the recent hypocrecy of the term "Westernization".... look for example the books of Samuel Huntington (he theaches racism in Harvard)... saying that Latin America has a "Latin culture", and therefore it is not "Western" ( ).
(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina ).
In reality, his racist thinking makes no sense, and only reached notoriety for the events since 2001.

Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.

I wonder if there if we come up with a definition of "Westerness" that is honest and not influenced by partial or politically motivated.

Almost no term is neutral in that regard. And as you see in this thread 'Western' is per se neither positive nor negative. It depends on the individual whether he or she likes it or not.

 

[Sirius2B]

Sorry, Latin America is most commonly translated as "Süd-Amerika" in German which means literally "South America", of course "Latein-Amerika" exists as well but it is not used as often... Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.

Ja, ich weiss schon... wie ist das Wetter im Hesse?

Entschuldigen Sie... the truth is that I am just arriving from very confrontative forums and most of what I say, I say with "puns" and irony... and maybe a little bitterness... it will take a little (very little) to adjust to this more or less easy going and serious forum.

I say and then repeated "Latin" America, precisely to emphasize that there is "ignorant academics" (another irony!), that fail to see than Latin (understood as Roman) culture is one of the Roots of what is ment historicaly as "Western".

Haben Sie ein schoenen Tag... aber ich will wissen uber die Fahne bei deine Avatar... die habe ich vorher geshen ich glaube, aber jetzt erkenne ich sie nicht.

 

[KirinMan]

Could someone please educate me to as how genocide or ethnic problems in Turkey have anything to do with "westernization" of Japan?

Just about anyone could start making arguments or making their comments about this country and that and this thread would loose any sense of the topic that the OP placed here. As if it hasn't already.......

If you want to talk about comparisons between Turkish culture and Japanese culture I guess that would be a more apprpriate subject line don't you think?

I personally came to read this thread because I was interested to hear what people's thoughts were about how they defined westernization in comparison to Japan. Needless to say I was disappointed at some of the content so far and a bit surprised that it hasn't been brought back into line.

Back on topic here.....

I reiterate the question by Mikawa san and ask the same thing here

when you say Westernization, do you mean that as "Americanization" or "Europeanization" or a mix of the two?

There is much in the west that I personally would love to see adapted into everyday life here in Japan. I give one example here, more individuality and wanting to strike out and do things for oneself. That is one thing that I admire about many westerners in comparison to Japanese and their sense of community and in keeping the "wa" and not rocking the boat. Unfortunately I can only generalize here, which isnt fair because their are of course exceptions to every case.

Westernization is not just about economics imo, it is also an acceptance and intermeshing of cultures. There is much about Japan and the Japanese that I would love to see the west emulate as well. That I suppose is a different topic though.

 

[Jiyuu]

Could someone please educate me to as how genocide or ethnic problems in Turkey have anything to do with "westernization" of Japan?

Sorry. Though I asked ludoNL to talk about the issues he brought about Turkey in private, he said that he did not feel the need to talk it in private and mentioned about them here. That's why I replied, distracting the whole topic to somewhere that has nothing to do with the purpose of this topic. I should have replied him in private. My bad. Sorry.

So please keep up with the discussion, I'm curiously following the ideas brought up. Arigatou gozai-masou.

 

[gaijinalways]

As noted earlier, there is often confusion about what Westernization really is versus disliking rampant mass consumerism of Western (or other) goods. Of course, we could blame Western culture for introducing mass consumerism, but it is hardly a private preserve of Western countries now.

As to Western values, even here it is not always clear, but of course democracy, and equal rights were introduced, even though these don't exist in their pure forms in any country today. Some other values are difficult to evaluate as Western as Western countries differ in some values and aspects. France is different from England, which is different from America. It's difficult to isolate and identify what those values are.

 

[KirinMan]

As noted earlier, there is often confusion about what Westernization really is versus disliking rampant mass consumerism of Western (or other) goods. Of course, we could blame Western culture for introducing mass consumerism, but it is hardly a private preserve of Western countries now.
As to Western values, even here it is not always clear, but of course democracy, and equal rights were introduced, even though these don't exist in their pure forms in any country today. Some other values are difficult to evaluate as Western as Western countries differ in some values and aspects. France is different from England, which is different from America. It's difficult to isolate and identify what those values are.

My point is first one has to define what "westernization" is for it to be compared to Japan or any other "non-western" country. I don't want to come across racially biased here, but for lack of a better term in my mind at least, when many people think of western countrIes and western culture they think of "white" or should I say "caucasian" culture.

Like gaijinalways wrote here whose country are you going to use as the definitive western country or western values.
I would like to know what a Japanese person thinks about this, or who they think of when they think about "seiyo-jin"

 

[Sukotto]

I'm only MID-Westernized :sing: "Sau-cer, Saucer..." (anime joke)

 

[Sukotto]

Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.

It's a way to re-divide people into groups.
They're always at conflict with one another, dontcha know.
Because they disagree with some sort of bogus "Washington concensus" or something, they are potential enemies.
They just couldn't let the cold-cuts war end could they?

(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina ).

Is that as in : Operation Paperclip, South American Nazis, the dirty wars, the Ford Falcon, and many "disappeared"?

 

[undrentide]

Like gaijinalways wrote here whose country are you going to use as the definitive western country or western values.
I would like to know what a Japanese person thinks about this, or who they think of when they think about "seiyo-jin"

I think we use the word 窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ??ｰﾂｻ oubeika (Europe/America-nization) when talking about "westernization". ﾂ青ｼ窶芭窶ｰﾂｻﾂ・ﾂ青ｼ窶芭ﾂ人 seiyouka/seiyoujin used to be used commonly in the past, maybe in Meiji and Taisho, or early Shouwa, but now 窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ??ｰﾂｻﾂ・窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ?人 are far more commonly used.
And from these words, America (which normally means the United States in Japan) and Europe come to our mind. I think its connotation is the same about the word ﾂ青ｼ窶芭 seiyou.

 

[Dr. J. M.]

Ja, ich weiss schon... wie ist das Wetter im Hesse?
Entschuldigen Sie...

Das Wetter ist zu mild für diese Jahreszeit, morgens häufiger Nebel aber dafür scheint mittags die Sonne. Achja, ich bin auch der Auffassung, dass Duzen angebrachter ist als Siezen, zumindest in Foren wie diesen. ^^

the truth is that I am just arriving from very confrontative forums and most of what I say, I say with "puns" and irony... and maybe a little bitterness... it will take a little (very little) to adjust to this more or less easy going and serious forum.
I say and then repeated "Latin" America, precisely to emphasize that there is "ignorant academics" (another irony!), that fail to see than Latin (understood as Roman) culture is one of the Roots of what is ment historicaly as "Western".

I see.

Haben Sie ein schoenen Tag... aber ich will wissen uber die Fahne bei deine Avatar... die habe ich vorher geshen ich glaube, aber jetzt erkenne ich sie nicht.

Danke, gleichfalls. Die Flagge bei meinem Avatar ist einfach nur die Landesflagge des Bundeslandes Hessen. Die Farbkombination ist aber auf der Welt relativ beliebt, z.B. hat Polen dieselben Farben nur umgekehrt und die Indonesische Flagge ist sogar identisch.

My point is first one has to define what "westernization" is for it to be compared to Japan or any other "non-western" country. I don't want to come across racially biased here, but for lack of a better term in my mind at least, when many people think of western countrIes and western culture they think of "white" or should I say "caucasian" culture.

So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans?

 

[Sirius2B]

Das Wetter ist zu mild für diese Jahreszeit, morgens häufiger Nebel aber dafür scheint mittags die Sonne. Achja, ich bin auch der Auffassung, dass Duzen angebrachter ist als Siezen, zumindest in Foren wie diesen. ^^

Danke, gleichfalls. Die Flagge bei meinem Avatar ist einfach nur die Landesflagge des Bundeslandes Hessen. Die Farbkombination ist aber auf der Welt relativ beliebt, z.B. hat Polen dieselben Farben nur umgekehrt und die Indonesische Flagge ist sogar identisch.

Ja, vielen dank für die Auskunft...

[/QUOTE]So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans?[/QUOTE]
The question was not addressed to me... but I want to participate too: Yes, we have here another ambiguous term, such as "whiteness" that easily could be subjet to debate.

It is curious that in nowadays Russia, for example, the term "Caucasian" inmediately brings to mind not very positive attributes, and Russian "skins" chase them in Moscow subway, same as the like Asian looking, or dark skinned people.

By "Aryans"... do we mean people of "nordlich" appeariance... or we are meaning Iranians or high castes in India??

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????)

And for US Elites (that supposely do not exist), the children should marry, if no option, with "White" European people... for that "French and Germans of the South are swarthy... but not the Swiss!!"...

Hispanics (specially Mexicans) in the USA cannot be white, not even for the Blacks, although they come in a variety of colors too.

Oh!! And I forget that in the USA (to close the subjetct) Jews could be Nazis too... although the "bad Nazis" want to kick them out their organizations in recent times.

Arabs also come in a variety of colors... their fate and treatment they receive, depends more or less of $$$$... be it in Marseille or New York.
Regards.

 

[Dr. J. M.]

do we mean people of "nordlich" appeariance... or we are meaning Iranians or high castes in India??

I mean nordic people (It's like with the swatiska, even though the term "aryan" and the swatiska had originally other meanings, today they are most commonly associated with the white people and the nazis, respectively.)

And for US Elites (that supposely do not exist), the children should marry, if no option, with "White" European people... for that "French and Germans of the South are swarthy... but not the Swiss!!"...

Oh well... The USA have the brightest people in the world but also the dumbest. [They also got the fittest people in the world and the fattest! A land of contrasts and superlatives.] Therefore it's surprising that those who think of southern Germans being swarthy even know that Switzerland, France and Germany are all European...

Hispanics (specially Mexicans) in the USA cannot be white, not even for the Blacks, although they come in a variety of colors too.

That's why they're called "hispanics" [But I also think it depends on the degree on education. I dislike generalizations.]

Oh!! And I forget that in the USA (to close the subjetct) Jews could be Nazis too... although the "bad Nazis" want to kick them out their organizations in recent times.

I doubt that, Jews could never be real Nazis unless they are suicidal and kill themselves.

Arabs also come in a variety of colors... their fate and treatment they receive, depends more or less of $$$$... be it in Marseille or New York.
Regards.

Nah, I guess that's too much of a generalization, there are always xenophobic morons who judge others based on skin-color or descent and don't care about wealth.

Ja, vielen dank für die Auskunft...

Gern geschehen =).
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