How does service in Japan compare with Western countries ?

Pierrot le Fou · 20 Oct 2005

I don't get it.

You say one thing, and then turn around and say the opposite, and then expect me to take what you said the second time to be what you actually meant to say, so that I should entirely disregard the first thing you said.

How the Hell am I supposed to manage to communicate with you when you can't say what you mean the first time such that a rational native English speaker can understand it?

You expect me to believe that this comment:
Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese
Shouldn't be interpreted as an affront to my Japanese skills.

You expect me to ignore that you said:
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
Because you were never implying that I had no taste at all, clearly!

You expect me to forget about this:
I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.
And believe that you just disagree -- not that you actually think that those issues are insignificant.

And you expect me to forget that previous comment when in the very next post where you try to 'clarify' your comments, and in the midst of apologizing for being 'perhaps harsher than you intended' you responded to this comment of mine:
You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them.
With this:
This is true and I'll tell you why. I used to make the exact same complaints (or similar complaints) during my first couple of years in Japan. I used to let stupid little things bother me simply because they weren't what I was used to back home. But after a while I realized I was letting these non-issues interfere with my enjoyment of life in Japan and I just learned to accept them. Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like. I guaruntee you that if you spend another couple of years in Japan you will look back and wonder how you ever let this stuff bother you.
So not only are my complaints foolish, but they are demeaning to Japanese people, and you guarantee that if I spend a couple more years here I will wonder how I let those things bother me.

Maybe you just stumble over your words. Maybe you just got flustered and took it out on me. Maybe maybe maybe.

All I know about you is what you post. That means that your words, when written in the way that you have written them, are what I have to go on. And when a good deal of those words are insulting, condescending, and complete and total mixed messages, you're going to have to forgive me if I can't take your apologies to heart.

In each and every post so far in this thread, you have given me a nugget such as the preceeding ones. In every single post you've made in this thread, you've said something that on the surface is insulting, condescending, or just plain rude.

And yet you expect me to not be peeved and to ignore those slights because you apologize? In the same breath as criticizing me again?

Go back and actually read your posts. Take a look at what you actually wrote there. Take a look at how someone who isn't you might read them. Those are the words that I have to go on, and they don't look that nice to me. Perhaps I just have broken English to go along with my broken Japanese.

I take offense where offense has been given. And there's plenty in this thread. I am not sitting around sobbing to myself over what a mean jerk senseiman was to me, and about how I will never again be able to love myself, but for crissakes, you have been quite insensitive in this thread, and rude, and it's unmerited. Entirely.

So how about rather than adding fuel to the fire by delivering another half-apology shrouded in retractions and further questionable statements, you either go all-out on the insult front, just plainly apologize, or actually try to think about what you want to say without tossing stuff in there that will be taken the wrong way.

And it's Pierrot LE Fou. Just for reference.

Index · 20 Oct 2005

Pierrot le Fou said:
I don't get it.

What is it that you don't get? Senseiman has apologized to you a number of times, attempted to explain what he meant and how you may have misinterpreted him, and tried to diffuse the situation without offending you anymore. It seems to me that you are the one who is now continuously and obnoxiously attempting to throw fuel on a fire that should have died a long time ago. Relax and stop acting like a pretentious, pompous, uptight git. You must top the list for anal retentives.

DoctorP · 20 Oct 2005

Maciamo said:
It's not just a matter of broken English, just English. The difference between you and me is that I am not (like over 50% of all Caucasians) a native English speaker. It somehow hurts my "cultural" pride when they assume that I necessarily am an English speaker because I am Caucasian.

Ahhh...but the problem here lies in the fact that you do speak English! That is why I can't see you getting so frustrated. You have routinely stated how versed you are in many languages...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times. Now...if you spoke only French or Chinese or whatever, and people kept addressing you in English I would understand your frustration.

I am sure that any non-Japanese Asian being addressed in Japanese while travelling abroad (except in Japan), or a Japanese being addressed in Chinese or Korean in a Western country would feel the same way. They would protest "I am not [nationality]", even if they can speak the language in which they are addressed.

I understand your point here and I do agree with this.

It's especially annoying when it happens all the time, not just once in a while. This is the case for me in Japan. Another reason to complain is that if their English level is really low, they should speak Japanese, as the language of the place where one is, is always the one that should be used in case of doubt.

It's a basic rule of politeness to address strangers in the local language if you can speak it (even if you do not speak it well), and only switch to another language if the other person does not understand you.

Maybe this "rule" is unknown of most Americans. It wouldn't surprise me as only 12% of the Americans can speak (fluently) a foreign language, as opposed to 53% in the EU, ranging from 30% in the UK to 99% in Luxembourg. (Sources :
Japan Times and Europa)

Coming from a country with 3 official languages, divided by regions, I know that the most efficient and polite way to address a stranger is to use the official language of the place where I am at that time. If there is more than one official language (like in Brussels), then use the most common one or try to guess which one is more appropriate from the context/environment. The same happens in India, which has over 20 official languages and over 800 languages. Japan and the US are very monolingual cultures, and people tend to have less chances to interact with people speaking a different language. Let's hope that more frequent contact with foreigners and increased international experiences will help citizens of both countries to those fundamental rules of inter-cultural/linguistic communication.

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but wouldn't you say that you know three languages because you are from Europe and it is more or less a necessity rather than a desire? Quite a few people who live in the Southwester US know both English and Spanish as there is quite a large contingent of Mexicans who live/work in those areas that do not know English and Spanish must be used in order to convey your thoughts.

It seems as though you and I believe the same on at least one thing: If you plan to live in a country you should at the least speak the language. Too many people in the US can not speak English, but they want residency or a green card and would like to live/work in the US. Not only that, but now schools cater to these people by offering classes in their native language rather than requiring them to learn English. But that is another topic for another thread...as a matter of fact I believe we discussed it before.

Silverpoint · 20 Oct 2005

Maciamo said:
I agree. I have had similar experiences. While it is true that Japanese service is almost always polite, their competence in their job, especially the part-time type like video shops, restaurants, combinis, etc. often leaves a lo to be desired. It happened to me a few times to go to a combini and ask to use the fax machine and the staff had no idea how to operate it.

Haha... sorry to drag the thread back a bit, but this amused me because it happened to me just this afternoon (albeit the first time - on previous occasions, the staff have been excellent). I went to a convenience store near my office to send an urgent private fax (didn't want the boss to see it). I made some fairly inane comment to one of the staff who was standing nearby along the lines of "is this easy to use" and he came running over and started trying to operate it for me. Clearly the guy had no idea what he was doing, but despite my protestations he insisted on trying to finish the job. In the end he started trying to send a 4 page fax by sending 1 page at a time, and making a new call for each page.

Even though it was an idiot-proof system, I ended up giving him a bloody lesson in how to send multiple pages in a single transmission, mainly because I wanted an excuse to stop his frustrated attempts to 'help' me, and because I didn't have 30 minutes to spare to send the damn thing.

Elizabeth · 20 Oct 2005

CC1 said:
Ahhh...but the problem here lies in the fact that you do speak English! That is why I can't see you getting so frustrated. You have routinely stated how versed you are in many languages...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times.

I think Maciamo gets in a hurry and doesn't bother editing most of the time....I've seen very simple mistakes in Japanese as well, not that that is an excuse on the principle of addressing a foreigner in a third tongue.

Maciamo · 20 Oct 2005

CC1 said:
...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times.

I am not a native speaker, but if that is true, I would apprciate if you could point out what kind of mistakes I make. For example, I sometimes hesitate between the use of "this" or "that" ("if this is true" or "if that is true") or expressions like "on the contrary" vs "at the contrary". :?)

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but wouldn't you say that you know three languages because you are from Europe and it is more or less a necessity rather than a desire?

In Belgium, one only needs French and Dutch (and maybe English), but as strange as it may be Dutch is the language I am the worst at among the 7 languages I have learnt, although I have learnt it quite a few years at school. I usually learnt more easily the languages that I wanted to learn for myself, not out of necessity, like Italian and German (which I didn't have to study at school). So in my case necessity in inversely proportional to aptitude.

Maciamo · 20 Oct 2005

Elizabeth said:
I think Maciamo gets in a hurry and doesn't bother editing most of the time....I've seen very simple mistakes in Japanese as well, not that that is an excuse on the principle of addressing a foreigner in a third tongue.

Maybe that's the reason. Indeed, I almost never re-read my posts, and sometimes only find my own spelling/typing mistakes when somebody quotes me. I have just checked, and I have written about 120 posts just in the last week (and usually pretty long). That's an average of 17 posts a day (+ reading other posts). Maybe that's no wonder I will soon reach 6000 posts in about 2.5 years...

Mike Cash · 21 Oct 2005

senseiman said:
If I'm not mistaken the minimum wage in Japan IS in the 700-800 yen per hour wage

By Location

By Industry

senseiman · 21 Oct 2005

Pierrot le Fou said:
You expect me to believe that this comment:
Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese
Shouldn't be interpreted as an affront to my Japanese skills.

Why are you still harping on about this? You said you couldn't understand Keigo from which I made the mistaken yet not unreasonable assumption that your Japanese wasn't great (ie it was "broken", which is a pretty standard term). You explained otherwise and I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED for having offended you. What the hell is it that you expect me to do? Tattoo "Pierrot le Fou's Japanese is NOT broken and I should burn for all eternity for having the gaul to have ever implied otherwise." on my forehead? Get over it.

Pierrot le fou said:
You expect me to ignore that you said:
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
Because you were never implying that I had no taste at all, clearly!

It was a tongue in cheek that 99% of people wouldn't be at all offended by. I've already apologized twice for it already and if you can't accept that and still demand satisfaction for your wounded ego then thats just too bad for you.

Pierrot le Fou said:
You expect me to forget about this:
I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.
And believe that you just disagree -- not that you actually think that those issues are insignificant.

I DO think they are insignificant. DO you understand the difference between insignificant and illegitimate? Illegitimate means they are wrong, insignficant means that while they may be right the aren't really that important. How many times do I have to tell you? I'm not saying that your complaints are illegitimate, I'm saying they are insignificant or trivial.

Pierrot le fou said:
So not only are my complaints foolish, but they are demeaning to Japanese people, and you guarantee that if I spend a couple more years here I will wonder how I let those things bother me.

I thought you would change your mind, you said you wouldn't. I accepted that and apologized. End of story. Stop crying like a four year old, you are making a scene.

Pierrot le fou said:
Maybe you just stumble over your words. Maybe you just got flustered and took it out on me. Maybe maybe maybe.

Or maybe you are just too thick, anal retentive and self absorbed to comprehend whats being said to you.

Pierrot le fou said:
And yet you expect me to not be peeved and to ignore those slights because you apologize? In the same breath as criticizing me again?

What do you expect? Not only do I have to apologize for having hurt your precious feelings but I also have to refrain from criticizing you and implicitly accept every word you say because doing otherwise would be interpreted as rude and condescending by you? Give me a break.

Pierrot le fou said:
Go back and actually read your posts. Take a look at what you actually wrote there. Take a look at how someone who isn't you might read them. Those are the words that I have to go on, and they don't look that nice to me. Perhaps I just have broken English to go along with my broken Japanese.

I'd give you the same advice. I took a look back at all my posts and couldn't find any remote grounds on which you could argue I've given offence, with the exception of the sushi comment (which I've unconditionally apologized for), the broken Japanese comment (which I've also explained and completely apologized for), and calling you fluffyhamster by mistake. Everything else looks perfectly reasonable, so the problem must be YOU!

I've tried to be civil and make amends but you seem intent on throwing that back in my face, so now I'm going to be openly rude. You sound like an anal retentive little twerp and if you can't take even mild criticism then you really shouldn't be posting on message boards (or interacting with human beings in general).

Pierrot le fou said:
I take offense where offense has been given. And there's plenty in this thread. I am not sitting around sobbing to myself over what a mean jerk senseiman was to me, and about how I will never again be able to love myself, but for crissakes, you have been quite insensitive in this thread, and rude, and it's unmerited. Entirely.

It certainly sounds for the past few posts that all you've been doing is sobbing about how hurt your feelings are. Wipe your tears, they aren't going to do you any good here. You are right though, it was insensitive of me not to reflexively agree with everything you've written here. Perhaps you should put a little disclaimer at the end of each of your posts: "Don't disagree with me or I'll throw a hissy fit and make everyone think I'm a total knob".

Pierrot le fou said:
So how about rather than adding fuel to the fire by delivering another half-apology shrouded in retractions and further questionable statements, you either go all-out on the insult front, just plainly apologize, or actually try to think about what you want to say without tossing stuff in there that will be taken the wrong way.

No, no, the gloves are off. If you care to apologize for behaving like a spoiled 6 year old then I'm all ears. If you think I'm going to waste my breath apologizing again for the millionth time to a little primadonna like yourself you can forget it.

DoctorP · 21 Oct 2005

Am I the only one here that liked it better when he was being called "fluffy hamster"?

Mike Cash · 21 Oct 2005

He must be some kind of genius. I speak broken Japanese. Difference is I haven't lived in Japan as long as he has so it doesn't hurt my pride to admit it.

senseiman · 21 Oct 2005

CC1 said:
Am I the only one here that liked it better when he was being called "fluffy hamster"?

It was an honest mistake for me to call him that, but now that I think of it the name does seem somehow appropriate....

Mike Cash said:
He must be some kind of genius. I speak broken Japanese. Difference is I haven't lived in Japan as long as he has so it doesn't hurt my pride to admit it.

Yeah, I spent five years in Japan and studied my butt off for most of them but my Japanese is still broken. He must have some sort of massive linguistic ability to be able to speak perfect fluent Japanese uninfected by any accent or other deficiencies after only two years there. My hats are off to him.

DoctorP · 21 Oct 2005

senseiman said:
Yeah, I spent five years in Japan and studied my butt off for most of them but my Japanese is still broken. He must have some sort of massive linguistic ability to be able to speak perfect fluent Japanese uninfected by any accent or other deficiencies after only two years there. My hats are off to him.

Wait just a minute though...I'm not doubting that he could be fluent. I am not fluent, but that is more by my choice to stop studying when I did...had I continued to study I probably would be fluent by now. As for accent, many people are shocked when they speak to me on the phone, because they say that I have absolutely no accent when I speak Japanese...this is very funny, because I was born and raised in the South and have a pretty heavy Southern drawl going for me! With that said, I believe that many people are able to become fluent in very short periods of time (just not me) and may well be able to function with little or no problems when speaking Japanese.

Elizabeth · 21 Oct 2005

窶堋ｱ窶堙戸彙窶堙娯?ｹﾂｳﾅ単窶堙債。ﾂ。ﾂ。

JREF窶堙??堙?ﾂ、ﾅ陳ｩ窶冦窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ人窶堙??冦窶堙ｨﾂ坂?｡窶堋｢窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙??堋ｫﾂ、窶堋｢窶堙や?堙??堙?ﾂ、窶卍才?凪?堙遺?堋ｳ窶堋｢ﾂ。

senseiman · 21 Oct 2005

CC1 said:
Wait just a minute though...I'm not doubting that he could be fluent. I am not fluent, but that is more by my choice to stop studying when I did...had I continued to study I probably would be fluent by now. As for accent, many people are shocked when they speak to me on the phone, because they say that I have absolutely no accent when I speak Japanese...this is very funny, because I was born and raised in the South and have a pretty heavy Southern drawl going for me! With that said, I believe that many people are able to become fluent in very short periods of time (just not me) and may well be able to function with little or no problems when speaking Japanese.

Yeah, I have the same thing happen to me on the phone. I think its because I learned all the set phrases phoenetically by listening to my wife use them over and over again and can say them without much of an accent.

Its possible to become fluent in a relatively short time in some cases, but if you can't even understand (let alone use yourself) keigo (a basic, fundamental part of the language) then its probably safe to say that your Japanese is 'broken'. I can understand formal Japanese but have the damndest time whenever I try to use it myself, it isn't a pretty picture. On that basis alone I would be willing to admit that my Japanese was broken.

There is also the fact that just because you can function and have little in the way of trouble when speaking Japanese it doesn't mean your Japanese isn't broken. I studied quite a bit, passed level 2 of the JLPT, spoke the language almost everyday I was there in any range of situations and yet I still caught myself flubbing the grammar or racking my brain to try to think of a simple word all the time. By my definition, my Japanese definitely counts as broken.

Pierrot le Fou · 21 Oct 2005

Before I get started, I would like to point out that I have not directly insulted you, attacked you, or otherwise attributed any sort of negative quality to you NOT based on something that I derived from what you'd said. I would also like to point out that this thread has become a giant flaming pile of feces, and that there isn't much chance for recovery.

So in that light, this will be my last post in response to the whole fiasco. I will post if the thread gets back on track, but I'm not going to sit around and argue tooth and nail after this final shot at actually making a point if senseiman responds. Because it ain't something that's going to lead to edification.

senseiman said:
Why are you still harping on about this? You said you couldn't understand Keigo from which I made the mistaken yet not unreasonable assumption that your Japanese wasn't great (ie it was "broken", which is a pretty standard term). You explained otherwise and I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED for having offended you. What the hell is it that you expect me to do? Tattoo "Pierrot le Fou's Japanese is NOT broken and I should burn for all eternity for having the gaul to have ever implied otherwise." on my forehead? Get over it.

Broken is not equivalent to not great, and neither has to do with understanding keigo. Little children have trouble with keigo, and yet their Japanese isn't 'broken' it's just lacking higher level vocabulary and grammar. Broken language is characterized by gaps, pauses, and a sort of stumbling stuttering through sentences. Not by the inability to understand 'meshiagaru' or 'itadaite orimasu.'

Broken is furthermore NOT a standard term for deciding language ability, and has a negative connotation to it. Non-fluent, intermediate/beginner level -- these things are more neutral. Calling someone's language broken is really not a neutral term because of the connotations of the word 'broken' as if it has to be 'fixed' rather than stating that their language is in a constant state of improvement and will just get there with time.

Again, I don't want to get into a giant back-and-forth about this anymore, so you can either agree that it's not a very kind statement to make about language scales, or argue into the wind about it.

senseiman said:
It was a tongue in cheek that 99% of people wouldn't be at all offended by. I've already apologized twice for it already and if you can't accept that and still demand satisfaction for your wounded ego then thats just too bad for you.

The internet is notoriously poor and changing its inflection to indicate sarcasm. We should blame the board software perhaps? Perhaps 99% of people would have understood that was tongue in cheek in person, but this isn't in person, and making comments like that aren't exactly easy to see through when shrouded in the rest of your semi-insulting comments (and followed up by directly insulting comments later on).

And for the record, my ego isn't wounded at all. I could care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks of my Japanese skills as they have no clue about them. I'm just rather appalled at how incredibly rude you've been on the basis of posts that you agree with.

senseiman said:
I DO think they are insignificant. DO you understand the difference between insignificant and illegitimate? Illegitimate means they are wrong, insignficant means that while they may be right the aren't really that important. How many times do I have to tell you? I'm not saying that your complaints are illegitimate, I'm saying they are insignificant or trivial.

You concede my complaints are insignificant. You think it is illogical to make insignificant complaints. Therefore making insignificant complaints is illegitimate in your eyes. Do you realize the logical implications of what you say?

Even if we assume that you meant what you explained yourself to have meant, should I truly feel content and warm and fuzzy inside because my complaints aren't illegitimate? Only insignificant? Neither is too positive, and both are quite condescending (because they require the presumption that you get to decide which issues are 'significant' or not -- do you also tell gay folk that their desire to marry is 'insignificant' because as a straight married man it doesn't help you to worry about it?).

senseiman said:
I thought you would change your mind, you said you wouldn't. I accepted that and apologized. End of story. Stop crying like a four year old, you are making a scene.

...

Or maybe you are just too thick, anal retentive and self absorbed to comprehend whats being said to you.

This is about the level of discussion the thread has devolved into... Yes, you are being rude and condescending.

senseiman said:
What do you expect? Not only do I have to apologize for having hurt your precious feelings but I also have to refrain from criticizing you and implicitly accept every word you say because doing otherwise would be interpreted as rude and condescending by you? Give me a break.

No, you don't have to apologize for 'hurting my feelings' (which you didn't do). I said that if you were going to apologize, which you keep mentioning you've done as if it's a panacaea to tossing insults my way constantly, then you should make a legitimate effort towards it not involving calling me names or being rude. You can flame me all you want, I just think it's rather hypocritical that you are claiming that your apologies should be enough while piling more insults on top of them.

I don't even mind legitimate criticism! I don't mind people disagreeing with me! Hell, we could have had a great discussion here save for two key problems:
1) You agreed with me
2) Your version of disagreeing seems to involve being rude and calling me names

So I think that idea went out the window with the dishwater.

senseiman said:
I'd give you the same advice. I took a look back at all my posts and couldn't find any remote grounds on which you could argue I've given offence, with the exception of the sushi comment (which I've unconditionally apologized for), the broken Japanese comment (which I've also explained and completely apologized for), and calling you fluffyhamster by mistake. Everything else looks perfectly reasonable, so the problem must be YOU!

I've tried to be civil and make amends but you seem intent on throwing that back in my face, so now I'm going to be openly rude. You sound like an anal retentive little twerp and if you can't take even mild criticism then you really shouldn't be posting on message boards (or interacting with human beings in general).

You haven't tried to be civil. Please, look back over the thread again. Point to me the point where I have been anything BUT civil. I may have offended YOUR sensibilities as you're the one flying off the handle, but I certainly haven't done anything approaching calling you an "anal retentive twerp."

senseiman said:
It certainly sounds for the past few posts that all you've been doing is sobbing about how hurt your feelings are. Wipe your tears, they aren't going to do you any good here. You are right though, it was insensitive of me not to reflexively agree with everything you've written here. Perhaps you should put a little disclaimer at the end of each of your posts: "Don't disagree with me or I'll throw a hissy fit and make everyone think I'm a total knob".

No, the past few posts I've been pointing out that you were rude, condescending, and contradictory on an issue you conceded that you agreed with me on.

That's a world apart from 'hurt feelings.'

senseiman said:
No, no, the gloves are off. If you care to apologize for behaving like a spoiled 6 year old then I'm all ears. If you think I'm going to waste my breath apologizing again for the millionth time to a little primadonna like yourself you can forget it.

Yes, well, this primadonna is incredibly happy that you took one of my suggestions, and dropped the veil of civility, and just stuck to flinging feces. Because it suits the mood of the thread far better, and makes a lot more sense. So I'm done here, because there's really little point to taking this any further.

senseiman · 21 Oct 2005

Pierrot le Fou said:
Before I get started, I would like to point out that I have not directly insulted you, attacked you, or otherwise attributed any sort of negative quality to you NOT based on something that I derived from what you'd said. I would also like to point out that this thread has become a giant flaming pile of feces, and that there isn't much chance for recovery.

So in that light, this will be my last post in response to the whole fiasco. I will post if the thread gets back on track, but I'm not going to sit around and argue tooth and nail after this final shot at actually making a point if senseiman responds. Because it ain't something that's going to lead to edification.

I think I will respond, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Pierrot le fou said:
Broken is not equivalent to not great, and neither has to do with understanding keigo. Little children have trouble with keigo, and yet their Japanese isn't 'broken' it's just lacking higher level vocabulary and grammar. Broken language is characterized by gaps, pauses, and a sort of stumbling stuttering through sentences. Not by the inability to understand 'meshiagaru' or 'itadaite orimasu.'

Broken is furthermore NOT a standard term for deciding language ability, and has a negative connotation to it. Non-fluent, intermediate/beginner level -- these things are more neutral. Calling someone's language broken is really not a neutral term because of the connotations of the word 'broken' as if it has to be 'fixed' rather than stating that their language is in a constant state of improvement and will just get there with time.

Again, I don't want to get into a giant back-and-forth about this anymore, so you can either agree that it's not a very kind statement to make about language scales, or argue into the wind about it.

Actually, you've been the one arguing in the wind about it for several posts, just to recap I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED about five posts ago (and in just about every subsequent post) but you just don't want to let the issue drop. So I'd like to take the opportunity you've given me here to renounce all my previous apologies and just let everyone know that I think your Japanese sucks, your grammar is terrible, you couldn't spell your own name in katakana even if you had a template you just had to trace around. Furthermore your pronounciation is atrocious and your vocabulary is so small it'd take an electron magniscope to find. You really ought to be ashamed of how bad it is, you terrible Japanese speaker.

Pierrot le fou said:
The internet is notoriously poor and changing its inflection to indicate sarcasm. We should blame the board software perhaps? Perhaps 99% of people would have understood that was tongue in cheek in person, but this isn't in person, and making comments like that aren't exactly easy to see through when shrouded in the rest of your semi-insulting comments (and followed up by directly insulting comments later on).

I quite agree, one's tone isn't always accurately conveyed on the internet, which is why any sane person would have simply accepted my explanation and apology for the misunderstanding in the knowledge that it was just that -a misunderstanding- and moved on. Certain morons like.....say, yourself...don't seem to be so quick at catching on though.

Pierrot le fou said:
And for the record, my ego isn't wounded at all. I could care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks of my Japanese skills as they have no clue about them. I'm just rather appalled at how incredibly rude you've been on the basis of posts that you agree with.

Your ego isn't wounded? Then why have you spent all this time trying to defend it long after I conceded the point about your Japanese not being broken? Its too bad for your ego that you had to piss me off, because now I'm going to have a bunch of "Pierrot le fou speaks broken Japanese" T-shirts printed up and give them to all my friends to wear.

I'm quite surprised at how rude the last couple of my posts have become too, in over 500 posts I've made here you are the first person whose arrogance, stupidity and plain lack of common sense have been so severe as to force me to drop my usually congenial tone. You should feel proud.

Pierrot le fou said:
You concede my complaints are insignificant. You think it is illogical to make insignificant complaints. Therefore making insignificant complaints is illegitimate in your eyes. Do you realize the logical implications of what you say?

Well, the logical implications of what you are saying here is just foolish. I am now no longer allowed to even point out the insignificance of your complaints? So when you complained about Japanese fast food workers not meaning it when they smiled I should have chimed in with something like: "My god, that is a pressing issue and I thank you for bringing it to everyone's attention! Significant AND legitimate were the first words that came to my mind when I read that, you certainly are a mental giant and anyone who implies that you aren't is just being condescending and rude."

Pierrot le fou said:
Even if we assume that you meant what you explained yourself to have meant, should I truly feel content and warm and fuzzy inside because my complaints aren't illegitimate?

Ahhhh....HERE is where the miscommunication is happening. I must apologize, this is a little bit embarassing but there is something I think you should know:

People aren't posting here just to give you a content, warm and fuzzy feeling inside!!!

I know it sounds a little counter-intuitive for someone like yourself who is apparently used to being surrounded by sycophants who woudln't dream of taking their noses out of your butt. But the fact is that people in the real world don't really worry about trying to make each other feel warm and fuzzy, especially not on message boards.

Pierrot le fou said:
Only insignificant? Neither is too positive, and both are quite condescending (because they require the presumption that you get to decide which issues are 'significant' or not -- do you also tell gay folk that their desire to marry is 'insignificant' because as a straight married man it doesn't help you to worry about it?).

My god you are right, the word 'insignificant' truly is horrendously condescending and rude, especially when used to describe such earth shatteringly important issues like Tsutaya employee's knowledge of foreign films, the use of overly lengthy greetings by cashiers at the supermarket and the inability of JR staff to not use polite Japanese when talking to you. These are truly the significant issues that will animate much of the political debate in the early decades of this new century and you are a fabulously well informed crusader fighting to ensure that these crushingly important topics stay front and centre. Good luck to you, sir, and godspeed!!!

Pierrot le fou said:
No, you don't have to apologize for 'hurting my feelings' (which you didn't do).

Its OK, princess, you can admit it. We all know your feelings have been devastated by my use of the word "insignificant", there is no need to feel any shame about that. And remember -- no matter what anyone says its OK to cry. Its all part of the healing process.

Pierrot le fou said:
I said that if you were going to apologize, which you keep mentioning you've done as if it's a panacaea to tossing insults my way constantly, then you should make a legitimate effort towards it not involving calling me names or being rude. You can flame me all you want, I just think it's rather hypocritical that you are claiming that your apologies should be enough while piling more insults on top of them.

Didn't you read my last post? I'm waiting for an apology from YOU, not the other way around.

Pierrot le fou said:
I don't even mind legitimate criticism!

You...you...you mean you think my criticisms are illegitimate??? Oh my god, that is almost as insulting as saying they are insignificant, HOW DARE YOU!!!!

Pierrot le fou said:
I don't mind people disagreeing with me! Hell, we could have had a great discussion here save for two key problems:
1) You agreed with me
2) Your version of disagreeing seems to involve being rude and calling me names

Actually I think everyone here except you can agree that until your crankiness started to rub me the wrong way I was quite civil, didn't call you any names and was simply trying to have a discussion about the things you wrote.

Except of course for when I started using the word "insignificant", which I fully admit is the worst word in the whole world and Pierrot le fou is damned right in thinking that his complaints about Japanese service are EXTREMELY significant and the government really ought to be doing more to address them properly. Perhaps some sort of task force dedicated to the problems would not be entirely inappropriate.

Pierrot le fou said:
You haven't tried to be civil. Please, look back over the thread again. Point to me the point where I have been anything BUT civil. I may have offended YOUR sensibilities as you're the one flying off the handle, but I certainly haven't done anything approaching calling you an "anal retentive twerp."

You are right. Except for existing on the planet Earth as a total anal retentive twerp, you haven't really done much else to deserve the title "anal retentive twerp". Except of course for speaking that atrocious broken Japanese, you really ought to do something about that.

Pierrot le fou said:
No, the past few posts I've been pointing out that you were rude, condescending, and contradictory on an issue you conceded that you agreed with me on.

That's a world apart from 'hurt feelings.'

Now don't let your hurt feelings cloud your judgment. Nothing I have written has been rude, condescending or contradictory. And I disagree with everything you say, in fact you've put me off this thread so much that I disagree with everything that everyone has written on it, including myself.

Pierrot le fou said:
Yes, well, this primadonna is incredibly happy that you took one of my suggestions, and dropped the veil of civility, and just stuck to flinging feces. Because it suits the mood of the thread far better, and makes a lot more sense. So I'm done here, because there's really little point to taking this any further.

Oh please don't go. Its been such a long time since I had someone I could hurl sarcastic nastiness at without feeling any sense of remorse.

On second thought, maybe you should clam up, you seem to bring out the worst in people here. Or maybe its just me. I'm tired of all this bickering.

Elizabeth · 21 Oct 2005

What I do get frustrated about is the things that I can change and that haven't changed yet.

And whether I left tomorrow or in 10 years, I would still be trying to effect positive change where I could, because I don't believe that small problems that are actually possible to make an impact on are 'illegitimate' to complain about, bring up, or try to change. I don't think that a problem has to be of global importance to do something about it. I don't believe that someone else's agenda of complaints should be the only one that matters.

It's starting to slowly sink in that you're entirely serious about this -- that you don't see how these "problems," from your perspective, relate to Japanese values and society as a whole, seem to come out of nowhere and therefore should be relatively easily solvable. By talking with a few people in Tsutaya management you can effect their training practices, pizza joint employees can lose a little of their Japaneseness and be more to the point, conbini regi no hito can be taught to act more natural and not distract so much of the customers time and attention with their smiles or thank-yous.

I say this thread should now be closed...

Pierrot le Fou · 21 Oct 2005

I fail to see any problem with trying to get my local pizza hut to just ask for the phone number for returning customers.

I see no problem in asking Tsutaya to teach their employees how to find videos from the information presented when they search for the title.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with trying to get my local Izumiya to take one person away from a counter with no employees when there's a line up the wazoo at the few open registers.

Unless you believe that re-stating facts every week or two for over a year is a Japanese value, or that the inability to be familiar with an information display and the store layout at your workplace is a Japanese value, or that having multiple people (as opposed to just one) standing at an unused counter chit-chatting is a Japanese value, then I think I have a point. And if you do believe that those things are Japanese values and relate to society as a whole, then I question who should be mocking whom over this issue.

I mean, God forbid on all those things! The fabric of Japanese society and culture would rupture as people would be saved time in the long run!

The absence of long lines at the supermarket would cause mass aneurysms across the nation!

The efficiency with which one could find a video would cause people's appendixes to spontaneousy burst!

The ability to give merely a phone number and have your name confirmed when ordering pizza would cause cancer of the frontal lobe in a large portion of the population!

Civil war would break out!

Bird Flu would wipe out most of Japan!

The entire Japanese nation as we know it would cease to exist in any recognizable fashion!

If customer service is so important in Japan, then asking employees to be more responsive to their customers should be a no-brainer. Clearly the seriousness with which I believe this means that I am a nut-job. I will report to a local asylum immediately lest the preceeding disasters happen when word gets out of my entirely un-Japanese thoughts.

senseiman · 21 Oct 2005

Elizabeth said:
It's starting to slowly sink in that you're entirely serious about this -- that you don't see how these "problems," from your perspective, relate to Japanese values and society as a whole, seem to come out of nowhere and therefore should be relatively easily solvable. By talking with a few people in Tsutaya management you can effect their training practices, pizza joint employees can lose a little of their Japaneseness and be more to the point, conbini regi no hito can be taught to act more natural and not distract so much of the customers time and attention with their smiles or thank-yous.

I say this thread should now be closed...

I think this is a good point, a lot of these irritants are related to fundamental cultural differences so changing them isn't anywhere near as easy as it looks. There is also the point that most Japanese people are so used to them that they probably aren't generally recognized as problems, so in a way they aren't problems at all.

Its easy to see how this would hold true going the other way. A Japanese person could probably complain about the lack of enthusiasm (to be polite) shown by employees at an American fast food outlet and think it would quite easily be solved by just bringing it to the managers attention. But in fact it would really be more of a societal problem (we seem to have a lot more slackers in North America) than something that can be easily solved by a local manager or something.

Maciamo · 21 Oct 2005

Let's stop this discussion here !

How does service in Japan compare with Western countries ?

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骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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十人黄色

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