How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Toritoribe]

in my sentence, could it be wazurete iru?

Again. wasureteiru;-)
Unfortunately, 忘れている doesn't work well there, except a cases something like さっきまで覚えてたのに、今は忘れてる. The best one would be 忘れてしまった/忘れちゃった. In contrast, as for 覚える, 覚えている is used for a state of "remembering" as same as 来ている, 結婚している. 覚えた is generally used for completion "to have memorized now" or simple past. Probably the difference would be from the point where the focus or emphasis is on, jimo.

I doubt this is really used in day-to-day language. I'm not sure how to expose myself to adult language and such, but I've already resigned myself to what you said earlier. Though when I was playing FFX International, I read a few simple sentences that I pretty much understood, and others that through Kanji I derived their meanings. Unfortunately, the audio is in English. Speaking of which, I'll also be posting images from FFIX.

To understand REAL Japanese, you need to GRASP, for instance, the difference between 忘れた and 忘れてた, imo.

 

[Putrefaction]

Ah, I always keep misspelling that...

To understand REAL Japanese, you need to GRASP, for instance, the difference between 忘れた and 忘れてた, imo.

Oh...I may never do that...

 

[aardwolf]

Well, I would also like to thank everyone.. unfortunately, I cannot rep all of you anymore because I have to spread it around
One more question, is there some sort of webpage/online japanese dictionary that will tell me what type of verb a verb is? ie 動作動詞・状態動詞・瞬間動詞・変化動詞
some you can tell just from meaning, but it would be useful to know without having to ask someone here each time i learn a new verb.
よろしくお願いします！ ☝

 

[Elizabeth]

Ah, I always keep misspelling that...
Oh...I may never do that...

日本語は着実に勉強しなさい！

 

[Putrefaction]

Thank you for your kind words!:sorry: Yes, I'll always practice.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thank you for your kind words!:sorry: Yes, I'll always practice.

どういたしまして！
でも、日本語でお願いします。

手段：

First make short sentences, and everyday keep adding to it new words. (笑い
まず最初に、私は短い文を作り、それに単語を加えています。 ☝

 

[Putrefaction]

I certainly do try that. I also have a question before I do Chapter 13/14 review...

What happens in the first example if at the end it's kuremasu? I realize that it goes Subject ha/ga, Recipient ni ... so now if I make it at the end, kuremasu, would it be "I got a flower from that woman"? I doubt it because you'd need to reverse the reciepent and subject...so if it were:

watashi wa sono onna no hito ni hana o kuremasu

What would that mean? Conversely the last one, if I changed it to ageru...

 

[Elizabeth]

I certainly do try that. I also have a question before I do the Chapter 13/14 review...

What happens in the first example if at the end it's kuremasu? I realize that it goes Subject ha/ga, Recipient ni ... so now if I make it at the end, kuremasu, would it be "I got a flower from that woman"? I doubt it because you'd need to reverse the recipient and subject...so if it were:

watashi wa sono onna no hito ni hana o kuremasu

What would that mean? Conversely, the last one, if I changed it to ageru...

I know what you're trying to say, but it's wrong. it should be: A link to the previous threads...

Revising over giving and receiving.

Konbanwa minna~! Kono PC wa nihongo wo kakanai kedo...de wa romaji wo kaite kureru. Sumimasen deshita~! Shuumatsu made ni watashi no Laptop wo kaeshite shimatta (Kaechatta...?) I'm sorry this PC still cant write Japanese characters...so could you please in write in romaji ; ;. My laptop...

jref.com

~くれる

「～くれる」の使用をあまり分かんない。　でも、誰かが別人に好意として何かをしたら、その時は「～くれる」を使うでしょう？　そして、「～くて」は「～くれる」の活用ですか？　使用を分かんないけど、その用語をたくさん聞きます。:(

jref.com

 

[undrentide]

What happens in the first example if at the end it's kuremasu? I realize that it goes Subject ha/ga, Recipient ni ... so now if I make it at the end, kuremasu, would it be "I got a flower from that woman"? I doubt it because you'd need to reverse the recipient and subject...so if it were:

watashi wa sono onna no hito ni hana o kuremasu

What would that mean? Conversely, the last one, if I changed it to ageru...

As Elizabeth says, it does not work.
ageru/kureru are both to describe the same action, while "ageru" is used to describe the action by the giving end, "kureru" is used by the receiving end.
It will be easier if you see ageru = to give, and morau = to get.

私はその女の人に花をあげます。
I will give the woman flowers.
その女の人はその人から花をもらいます。
The woman will get flowers from me.

その女の人は男の人に時計をあげました。
The woman gave the man a watch.
その男の人は女の人から時計をもらいました。
The man got a watch from the woman.

両親が(私に）新しい車をくれるかもしれません。
My parents may give me a new car.
私は両親から新しい車をもらうかもしれません。
I may get a new car from my parents.

 

[aardwolf]

As Elizabeth says, it does not work.
ageru/kureru are both to describe the same action, while "ageru" is used to describe the action by the giving end, "kureru" is used by the receiving end.
It will be easier if you see ageru = to give, and morau = to get.

私はその女の人に花をあげます。
I will give the woman flowers.
その女の人はその人から花をもらいます。
The woman will get flowers from me.

その女の人は男の人に時計をあげました。
The woman gave the man a watch.
その男の人は女の人から時計をもらいました。
The man got a watch from the woman.

両親が(私に）新しい車をくれるかもしれません。
My parents may give me a new car.
私は両親から新しい車をもらうかもしれません。
I may get a new car from my parents.

This should be "The woman will get flowers from that person"... right?
or その女の人は私から花をあげます to match the translation you put up.. i think >.<

 

[undrentide]

This should be "The woman will get flowers from that person"... right?
or その女の人は私から花をあげます to match the translation you put up.. i think >.< :?

Woops, I forgot to make the correction I intended to make. Sorry. I meant to say:

その女の人は私から花をもらいます。
The woman will get flowers from me.

Anyway, その女の人は私から花をあげます does not work here again.
あげる means "to give", not "to get".

 

[Putrefaction]

Right! That's what I was also thinking, that it wouldn't work at all, you'd have to switch the giver / reciever AND the verb for it to mean the opposite, just like in English.

It will be easier if you see ageru = to give, and morau = to get.

Yeah, morau is so much more easier to understand than kureru, is it used more often?

Left rep for you guys, this was a major cog and I'm glad to see that I got it right on the second time, at least.

So I'll finish Ch. 13 + 14 and post'em as soon as I can.

 

[aardwolf]

Woops, I forgot to make the correction I intended to make. Sorry. I meant to say:
その女の人は私から花をもらいます。
The woman will get flowers from me.
Anyway, その女の人は私から花をあげます does not work here again.
あげる means "to give", not "to get".

what would the correct "giving verb" be here then?
教えてください！ :sorry:

also

あとで食べようと思ってれいぞうこに入れておいたケーキを弟に食べられた
The cake that i was going to eat (saving for?)later was eaten by my brother?

how does 思って work here?

夜おそく歩いていたら、おまわりさんに質問された
If i was walking late at night a police officer would have asked me a question.

夜おそく is a set phrase right?

机においておいた辞書＿誰か＿持っていかれてしまった。
１ に／と
２ を／と
３ に／を
４ を／に

I chose four, but the answer is 2?

 

[undrentide]

Woops, I forgot to make the correction I intended to make. Sorry. I meant to say:
その女の人は私から花をもらいます。
The woman will get flowers from me.
Anyway, その女の人は私から花をあげます does not work here again.
あげる means "to give", not "to get".?

what would the correct "giving verb" be here then?
教えてください！ :sorry:

As far as 女の人 is the subject of the sentence, you cannot use the verb "give" because she is on the receiving end.
There are two possibilities if you change the subject, though

１ 私はその女の人に花をあげます。
(from "my" point of view)

２ その人は（＝私)女の人に花をくれます。
(from the third person's point of view)
３ その人は私（＝女の人）に花をくれます。
(from the woman's point of view)

2 can be used only in a specific situation - the third person and the woman should belong to the same group (= us) and the third person should feel/regard the favour done to the woman is almost the favour done to his/herself, because くれる generally mean someone "gives" something to the speaker or someone on the speaker's side as a favour.

あとで食べようと思ってれいぞうこに入れておいたケーキを弟に食べられた
The cake that i was going to eat (saving for?)later was eaten by my brother?

how does 思って work here?

思う here means one's intention. The following two clauses modify the cake.
「あとで食べよう」と思って Intending to eat it (= the cake) later
れいぞうこに入れておいた (I) put it (= the cake) in the fridge

夜おそく歩いていたら、おまわりさんに質問された
If i was walking late at night a police officer would have asked me a question.
夜おそく is a set phrase right?

Yes, it means "late at night".
Another phrase of similar nature/format
朝早く early in the morning

机においておいた辞書＿誰か＿持っていかれてしまった。
１ に／と
２ を／と
３ に／を
４ を／に

I chose four, but the answer is 2?

Yes, you're right, the correct answer is 4.
2 is wrong. Where did you find that answer?

 

[aardwolf]

As far as 女の人 is the subject of the sentence, you cannot use the verb "give" because she is on the receiving end.
There are two possibilities if you change the subject, though
１ 私はその女の人に花をあげます。
(from "my" point of view)
２ その人は（＝私)女の人に花をくれます。
(from the third person's point of view)
３ その人は私（＝女の人）に花をくれます。
(from the woman's point of view)
2 can be used only in a specific situation - the third person and the woman should belong to the same group (= us) and the third person should feel/regard the favour done to the woman is almost the favour done to his/herself, because くれる generally mean someone "gives" something to the speaker or someone on the speaker's side as a favour.

Okay im kinda confused...

kureru = to "lower"
from person being talked to, to person talking

ageru = to "raise"
from person talking, to the person being talked to (or third person?)

morau = to "humbly recieve"
from anyone to person talking.

right?

１ 私はその女の人に花をあげます。
I will give her flowers
２ その人は（＝私)女の人に花をくれます。
he will give us flowers
３ その人は私（＝女の人）に花をくれます。
he will give me (and her/us) flowers

right?

but how would you say
A gave X to B. (person talking is C)
or
B san recieved X from A. (person talking is C)

思う here means one's intention. The following two clauses modify the cake.
「あとで食べよう」と思って Intending to eat it (= the cake) later
れいぞうこに入れておいた (I) put it (= the cake) in the fridge

I get the idea of the sentence but i havent seen the ~te form used that way, i saw it once before, but never learned it. so does it mean "while it is in the state of ~" or "with ~~", "having done ~~"

With the intention of eating it later, i put it in the fridge
あとで食べようと思って冷蔵庫に入れとた（いれておいた）。

heres the other time i saw it
外を見て
雨が降りそうですね。
外は寒そうですね。
天気よほうで聞いて
雨が降るそうですよ
明日は寒いそうですよ

So that would be something like
Having looked outside
It looks like it will rain huh?
It looks cold outside huh?
Having heard the weather report
I hear it will rain
I hear it will be cold tomorrow

Yes, you're right, the correct answer is 4.
2 is wrong. Where did y ou find that answer?

Oops, i misread the answer key! >< It is #4.
its the 完全マスター３級book.

 

[Elizabeth]

Right! That's what I was also thinking, that it wouldn't work at all, you'd have to switch the giver / reciever AND the verb for it to mean the opposite, just like in English.


Yeah, morau is so much more easier to understand than kureru, is it used more often?

Kureru to show that someone has given the favor of doing the verb for the subject and thus focuses heavily on the relationship to the speaker. Morau and Ageru to show receiving/giving more generically, with a broader scope and usage.

It's all in the links I referenced above. Issues surrounding these words have been covered before very extensively...

 

[Toritoribe]

Okay im kinda confused...

kureru = to "lower"
from person being talked to, to person talking

ageru = to "raise"
from person talking, to the person being talked to (or third person?)

morau = to "humbly recieve"
from anyone to person talking.

right?

No. あげる/もらう focuses simply on "the giver/receiver", whereas くれる focuses rather on "the relationship to the speaker."

くれる
the giver; the person being talked to or the third person, thus, the person except the speaker
the reciever; the speaker or the person in the speaker's inner-circle

彼は花を買ってくれた。
He bought me a flower./He bought a flower for me.

彼は妹に花を買ってくれた。
He bought a flower for MY(THE SPEAKER'S) sister.

彼は妹に花を買ってあげた。
He bought a flower for HIS(or the third person's) sister.
(This 妹 is considered not in the speaker's inner-circle.)

but how would you say
A gave X to B. (person talking is C)
or
B san received X from A. (person talking is C)

Both あげる and もらう can be used also for the third person, as in the thread Elizabeth-san quoted. So the answer is,
彼は彼女に花を買ってあげた。
彼女は彼に花を買ってもらった。

Just a tip
彼女に花を買ってあげた。
彼に花を買ってもらった。
彼は花を買ってあげた。
彼女は花を買ってもらった。

In the first two examples, the subject is generally "I; the speaker." Whereas in the last two ones, the receiver/giver is not the speaker. If in the case, it should be 彼は花を買ってくれた, 彼女に花を買ってあげた respectively.

It's all in the links I referenced above. Issues surrounding these words have been covered before very extensively...:relief:

Yeah, very long thread...

 

[Kirakira1232]

Right! That's what I was also thinking, that it wouldn't work at all, you'd have to switch the giver / reciever AND the verb for it to mean the opposite, just like in English.


Yeah, morau is so much more easier to understand than kureru, is it used more often?

Left rep for you guys, this was a major cog and I'm glad to see that I got it right on the second time, at least.

So I'll finish Ch. 13 + 14 and post'em as soon as I can.

One thing that helped me understand kureru/morau is that the use depends on the relationship to the speaker. Its not something I really understood well at all studying it home, now I sort of understand it but both are used just as liberally. I dont really understand clearly esspecially when to use Kudasaru vs. itadaku, but thats another matter al together XD I'll just illustrate using some examples I guess. Its really really hard to translate into english too!

For example if I was talking to a sempai (older student) or someone that I dont really know well I'd use:

Sempai! Watashi wa (senpai kara/ni) chotto shukudai wo mite moraemasu/moraemasen ka?
Sempai! Could you check this work for me?

Sumimasen, (watashi wa anata ni) shiyou wo totte moraemasen ka.
Excuse me could you please pass me the soy sauce.

In both cases you are asking for a favour from someone you dont really know all that well or perhaps dont talk to all that often. So its more polite to use morau when asking for something to be done for you.

But contrast this to what I say if I'm with a close friend.

Yumi-chan! (watashi ni) Shukudai wo mite kurenai?
Hey Yumi! Can ya check this homework for me?

Yuri-chan! (watashi ni) shiyou wo totte kurenai?
Yuri can ya pass the salt?

Here kureru and morau both mean almost exactly the same thing. The usage here depends on the relationship between the speaker and the giver. With people I dont know all that well I use morau. With people I'm closer with, kureru I feel is more appropiate because we are closer. It would be strange for me to use kureru with a stranger for some reason.

When your talking about giving and receiving objects, the meanings of kureru and morau change slightly again.

kyou kareshi ga (watashi ni) hana wo kureta/kuremashita.
Today my boyfriend gave me some flowers.

Kyou watashi wa kareshi ni hana wo moratta/moraimashita.
I received some flowers from my boyfriend today.

You cant really tell the different here but when I say the first sentence its like i was a little bit surprised I got flowers today/he did this as a favour out of the blue/I was pleasantly surprised. Whereas the second sentence is a lot more neutral and there is a slight implication that I was slightly expecting the flowers and so I received them as I had expected.

Kureru also implies a certain amount of closeness with the speaker as well. Morau is more neutral than kureru but I also feel there is a little bit of gratitude felt if you use morau.

I dont know if this is understandable or even 100% correct but its how I feel when I use kureru/morau

 

[Putrefaction]

Wow, so many lengthy responses! Elizabeth, I'll read the two topics you listed after I come home, Tori's I understood but that's bound to change as well. Kira, quickly reading over yours at the end I read the two sentences, apart from construction they did seem the same. I forgot what Genki said about these two verbs morau and kureru.

 

[Elizabeth]

When your talking about giving and receiving objects, the meanings of kureru and morau change slightly again.
kyou kareshi ga (watashi ni) hana wo kureta/kuremashita.
Today my boyfriend gave me some flowers.
Kyou watashi wa kareshi ni hana wo moratta/moraimashita.
I received some flowers from my boyfriend today.
You cant really tell the different here but when I say the first sentence its like i was a little bit surprised I got flowers today/he did this as a favour out of the blue/I was pleasantly surprised. Whereas the second sentence is a lot more neutral and there is a slight implication that I was slightly expecting the flowers and so I received them as I had expected.
Kureru also implies a certain amount of closeness with the speaker as well. Morau is more neutral than kureru but I also feel there is a little bit of gratitude felt if you use morau.
I dont know if this is understandable or even 100% correct but its how I feel when I use kureru/morau

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of surprise or expectedness as much as Kureru simply focuses on the giver (He gave me flowers) and signals a particular empathy for the benefactor in contrast to Morau (I received flowers from him). Kureru can even be a routine favor within the family as in 妹が貸してくれた本に読んだ. It's possible she's even sending them as a weekly favor or donation. The recognition is still visible, often shown through qualifiers of "nice" "lovely" "wonderful" etc.

Similarly, Morau can imply a favor as completely appreciated and still utterly out of the blue: 叔父にカメラをもらいました。そんな素敵なプレゼントをもらうとは思わなかった。Wow ! A camera from my uncle ! I certainly wasn't looking for anything so nice ! It might be more appropriate talking to a an outside third party, for instance, who doesn't know your uncle or need to understand the relationship between you, where neutrality is the coin of the realm. Talking to the boss about your presents it's "I got a camera from my uncle" not "My uncle, bless his heart, gave me a wonderful camera." So never trust a blanket statement in this language. It really is in the context, always...

I guess it's a similar balance in English between expressions like "They gave/I received." Each gives a slightly different perception, and the latter may not go "above and beyond" the norm but doesn't necessarily diminish the value of the gift or imply a cynicism and lack of gratitude in getting something for oneself.

 

[Putrefaction]

I am home now. I am reading the first of Elizabeth's topics by Kira, and I have to be completely honest, it's very advanced for me.

 

[Elizabeth]

And until it was mentioned here, I'd never thought about various potential confusions...will try to come up with a better explanation You're beginning to touch nuances where remembering the grammar rules is insufficient and *lots of practice and experience* are needed. I hope it's a good sign that all of our Japanese is getting more challenging as well as interesting. ;-)


So sorry for the ambiguous no-clear-cut answer, but maybe this helps speed along the process even a little!

 

[Putrefaction]

It's comforting to know that others have had this same experience of hardship, I read the first topic and I'll have to re-read it, because it was too complicated as I said -- I didn't get into [verb]-te ageru/kureru/morau so it's introducing multiple topics at once. The second topic I didn't read yet, I did read undrentide's post and it made super sense. Her second post and aard's posts I'll have to re-read, basically again. I keep coming home so late that when I read I just zone out haha. Though, this post by Tori did stick:

No. あげる/もらう focuses simply on "the giver/receiver", whereas くれる focuses rather on "the relationship to the speaker."

as well as yours, Elizabeth:

Kureru to show that someone has given the favor of doing the verb for the subject and thus focuses heavily on the relationship to the speaker. Morau and Ageru to show receiving/giving more generically, with a broader scope and usage.

 

[Elizabeth]

It's comforting to know that others have had this same experience of hardship, I read the first topic and I'll have to re-read it, because it was too complicated as I said -- I didn't get into [verb]-te ageru/kureru/morau so it's introducing multiple topics at once. The second topic I didn't read yet, I did read undrentide's post and it made super sense. Her second post and aard's posts I'll have to re-read, basically again. I keep coming home so late that when I read I just zone out haha. Though, this post by Tori did stick: as well as yours, Elizabeth:

Whenever there so many discussions, responses, cycling and recycling through old posts, going at different levels......it's too complicated. But that's definitely the heart of it.


And the one thing that absolutely cannot be forgotten...KURETE IS ALSO USED TO THANK US !!!

面白い説明してくれてありがとうござします！

 

[Kirakira1232]

Ahh hah that old topic~! hazukashii

It really depends on what you want to focus on in the sentence. The fact that you received something or that someone gave something to you. When you use which is well difficult to define I think. But because the subject is often dropped in Japanese eventually understanding the nuance difference between morau and kureru are important I think.

If a girl said to me "Mite mite! kyou hana wo kureta yo! ureshii!" (look look! I got flowers today! I'm so happy!) I immediately think it must have been someone close to her (and in most cases its her boyfriend). If she said "Mite mite! kyou hana wo moratta! ureshii!" (look look! I got flowers today! I'm so happy!) Its a little bit more ambigious to me who gave it to her, so I often ask "Dare ni?" (who gave it to you?).

In english the translation would be the same but the nuance is different in Japanese.
The nuance difference between morau and kureru is hard to grasp for me still though. So just keep getting at it!