How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Putrefaction]

(Iro no koto) mo shitte wa itakedo, kangaete wa inakattan desu ne...
(Yeah, I knew that (about the color), but wasn't thinking straight...) Something else to say besides expressions of forgot.
Tsugi no ha midori da to omoimasu.
The next one I think is green.
And, so, that's all for you today !

Oh, I see. I understood that sentence

putrefaction:

im not sure if it has anything to do with how recent it is, its just whether the state of not remembering is still continuing or not, but then again, 僕は先生じゃないですよね。。。

P.s. i dont really understand them either... エリザベスの最近のポストは。

I'm more lost than you, I got the concept right apparently, yet can't apply it to my own thoughts? I mean, after ASHIKAGA said

Basically, you use 忘れた when you have forgotten something, and 忘れていた when you were forgetting something but now you have remembered it.

I was slightly confused as I thought they both meant "forget", one is "forgot" (tied to present) and the other is unconnected to the present.

Oh no! I forgot what he said about the keys! And I also forget if I have to push in the lock!

One is connected to the present, forget, the other is past, forgot. I'm probably wrong though.

But my thing I still don't know.

 

[Elizabeth]

Oh, I see. I understood that sentence



I'm more lost than you, I got the concept right apparently, yet can't apply it to my own thoughts? I mean, after ASHIKAGA said I was slightly confused as I thought they both meant "forget", one is "forgot" (tied to present) and the other is unconnected to the present.

Oh no! I forgot what he said about the keys! And I also forget if I have to push in the lock!

One is connected to the present, forget, the other is past, forgot. I'm probably wrong though.

But my thing I still don't know.

窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙個？

窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙?（窶堋｢ﾂ）窶堋ｽ = had forgot(ten)
窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ = forgot

When these are in the long past there's no way to explain the explain the difference in English, either. Either both are acceptable or it really, really does depend on the context... ﾂ ﾂ ﾂ

 

[Putrefaction]

I get that, but there has to be a difference between the two, right? I wouldn't say "I forget my keys!", it sounds weird, I'm sure there are occasions where between the two one is "wrong" as aardwolf said he got corrected?

Or maybe not, I'm usually wrong

I'm doin' Pharm Calc, I'll post what I did in 13 later on.

 

[Toritoribe]

I wouldn't say "I forget my keys!", it sounds weird

As same as ﾅ陳ｮ窶堙ｰ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩﾂ！ sounds weird.;-)

 

[Elizabeth]

I get that, but there has to be a difference between the two, right? I wouldn't say "I forget my keys!", it sounds weird, I'm sure there are occasions where between the two one is "wrong" as aardwolf said he got corrected?

Or maybe not, I'm usually wrong

I'm doin' Pharm Calc, I'll post what I did in 13 later on.

わかった！！！....You're talking about the PRESENT !??
忘れる。

私はいつも鍵を忘れてばかりいる。 I am constantly forgetting my keys !!!
毎日、鍵を忘れる！

 

[noraemon]

It is difficult and cannot translate the following sentence into English well.
I think that there is the difference of "忘れた" and "忘れていました" in the tense.

「忘れた」と「忘れていました」は、どちらも直前から過去に向けて、出来事が拡がっています。
「忘れた」と「忘れていました」との違いは、あなたの注意が過去のどこに向けられているかです。
「忘れた」は、「過去における自分の行為に対する不在感」のあらわれです。
「忘れていました」は、「直前までの自分の感覚に対する不在感」のあらわれです。

 

[Putrefaction]

わかった！！！....You're talking about the PRESENT !??
忘れる。

私はいつも鍵を忘れてばかりいる。 I am constantly forgetting my keys !!!
毎日、鍵を忘れる！

Isn't that the main point? If your teacher asks you the meaning of Kanji X, and you say you do not remember, it is the -te form, right? Then when your teacher tells you you can say "I had forgotten it" (but now since you are no longer in the state of forgetting, the verb can be put in the past), the regular -ta (And in my case, when the teacher asks you and you forget again, back to the -te form), right? That was my whole confusion.

I understand your sentences, thank you, you always insert a little bit of Japanese i don't know haha! The second one, that means "Every day, I forget my keys". The differences between the two are making me very confused...
Japanese is tough to grasp, it doesn't help I'm not super keen :?

It is difficult and cannot translate the following sentence into English well.
I think that there is the difference of "忘れた" and "忘れていました" in the tense.
「忘れた」と「忘れていました」は、どちらも直前から過去に向けて、出来事が拡がっています。
「忘れた」と「忘れていました」との違いは、あなたの注意が過去のどこに向けられているかです。
「忘れた」は、「過去における自分の行為に対する不在感」のあらわれです。
「忘れていました」は、「直前までの自分の感覚に対する不在感」のあらわれです。

From what I can make out, are you saying they are wide in differences, it is our own personal interpretations?

 

[noraemon]

"忘れていました" means that I noticed the sense that I forgot.
I noticed that I forgot to have forgotten it.

"忘れた" means that I noticed the action that I forgot.
I noticed that I forgot it.

 

[Putrefaction]

I see what you're saying, if I may switch it around?

Remember \ Remembered!

I remember the kunyomi.
I remembered the kunyomi. (implies it is not connected to the present).

I believe the first involves a "status change".

 

[Toritoribe]

If your teacher asks you the meaning of Kanji X, and you say you do not remember, it is the -te form, right? Then when your teacher tells you you can say "I had forgotten it" (but now since you are no longer in the state of forgetting, the verb can be put in the past), the regular -ta (And in my case, when the teacher asks you and you forget again, back to the -te form), right? That was my whole confusion.

No. You have to say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ for the former case, because you've still forgotten. And for the latter one, you've remembered it from the teacher's hint or something like that, you can say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ (because now the state 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ "having forgotten" is past).

 

[Elizabeth]

Isn't that the main point? If your teacher asks you the meaning of Kanji X, and you say you do not remember, it is the -te form, right? Then when your teacher tells you you can say "I had forgotten it" (but now since you are no longer in the state of forgetting, the verb can be put in the past), the regular -ta (And in my case, when the teacher asks you and you forget again, back to the -te form), right? That was my whole confusion.

ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。(I don't remember) 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ (Sadly, I've totally forgotten).

窶堋?窶堋?窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｻ窶堋､ﾂ、 ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
窶堋ｻ窶堋､ﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｾ窶堙ｦﾂ、ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｦ(ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ）

Oh, that one ! Of course ! I remember now ! 窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾅ?'窶堋ｶ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙仰。ﾂ。ﾂ。

 

[Putrefaction]

No. You have to say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ for the former case, because you've still forgotten. And for the latter one, you've remembered it from the teacher's hint or something like that, you can say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ (because now the state 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ "having forgotten" is past).

Makes sense. The same case with remembered, I would think.

ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。(I don't remember) 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ (Sadly, I've totally forgotten).
窶堋?窶堋?窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｻ窶堋､ﾂ、 ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
窶堋ｻ窶堋､ﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｾ窶堙ｦﾂ、ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｦ(ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ）
Oh, that one ! Of course ! I remember now ! 窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾅ?'窶堋ｶ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙仰。ﾂ。ﾂ。

I always wondered, is that omoidashita or omoideshita? I see what you guys are saying now with these examples.

 

[noraemon]

I remember the kunyomi.
I remembered the kunyomi.

I remembered the kunyomi.
This sentence will not remember the kunyomi now.
A meaning becomes the truth reverse.

ああそうそう、 思い出した。
そう、そうだよ、思い出したよ(覚えているよ）
Oh, that one ! Of course ! I remember now ! という感じでしょうね。。。

It is such a feeling.
ああそうそう、 思い出した。忘れていたけど、今思い出した。

 

[Ashikaga]

Wow...this has turned out to be far more complicated than I'd thought!

OK, the original question was, which one to use, 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ or 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ, in the sentence "I forget what color belt comes after the blue one. I think it is green." (or something to that effect)

In that case, where the speaker himself is the subject and he is talking about the state he is in NOW, what noraemon and I have explained applies.

Apparently, I was only thinking in that situation and that situation only, and apart from the exception that I gave ("I forgot my keys!"), there are more exceptions as mentioned by toritribe and elizabeth. I am sorry if I ended up confusing you.

So, whoever suggested that you use 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ in that sentence was wrong.

 

[Putrefaction]

Can you give the correct sentence for my reference, then?

Here is what noremon said:

次のベルトを忘れていました。次は緑色のベルトだと思います。

Here's what I said:

Tsugi no "belt" o wazurete, midori no da? to omoimasu.

Could it be wazurete ite? Or is it wazureta? I'm still so confused :? I didn't "remember" so I don't think it's the first one, I just "think" it's green. I have another case for you.

"I forget the color of the next belt....oh, now I remember! It's green!"
Tsugi no belt no iro o wazurete iru.... aa, midori o omoidashimasu!"

But you said to use wazurete ita :?

 

[undrentide]

Can you give the correct sentence for my reference, then?

Here is what noremon said:



Here's what I said:



Could it be wazurete ite? Or is it wazureta? I'm still so confused :? I didn't "remember" so I don't think it's the first one, I just "think" it's green. I have another case for you.

"I forget the color of the next belt....oh, now I remember! It's green!"
Tsugi no belt no iro o wazurete iru.... aa, midori o omoidashimasu!"

But you said to use wazurete ita :?

First of all, 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙 is pronounced wasurete, not wazurete.

窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ means "to forget" andﾂ 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ means "have forgotten and stayed in that state" until now. If you forgot something and has just remember it now, you can say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ which imiplies you once forgot (for a certain period of time ﾂ〜窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ) but now you remember.

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh I see! I always thought it was wazureru. Sorry! Thanks for correcting me

So now I can fix that sentence:

"I forget the color of the next belt....oh, now I remember! It's green!"
Tsugi no belt no iro o wasurete ita.... aa, midori o omoidashimasu! (not sure if this is remember)"

The first one should be wasureta.

 

[undrentide]

Oh I see! I always thought it was wazureru. Sorry!

So now I can fix that sentence:

"I forget the color of the next belt....oh, now I remember! It's green!"
Tsugi no belt no iro o wasurete ita.... aa, midori o omoidashimasu! (not sure if this is remember)"

The first one should be wasureta.

oh, now I remember! It's green!
aa, omoidashita! Midori da!

Omoidasimasu does not fit here. Omoidasu is perhaps a bit different from the English verb "to remember".
Omoidasu is like wasureru, it is an act of moment, to get the memory back.
So if you already remember something, then omotidashita (completion/past) not omoidasu.

 

[Putrefaction]

Another piece of the Japanese puzzle falls into place. I'm glad I got the reading right as well. Thanks for the example.

So now it turns to:
Tsugi no belt no iro o wasurete ita.... aa, omoidashita! Midori da!

if I may continue, I remember that itte imasu means "has already gone to" and kite imasu means "has already come", why is this so? I remember this is a Group 3 Verb, but not sure why this is the past.

 

[Ashikaga]

So now it turns to:
Tsugi no belt no iro o wasurete ita.... aa, omoidashita! Midori da!

It should be wasureta instead of wasurete-ita here because.... you didn't remember it until when you said "aa, omoidashita!". Until then, you were still in the state of "not remembering". I hope that makes sense.

 

[Elizabeth]

It should be wasureta instead of wasurete-ita here because.... you didn't remember it until when you said "aa, omoidashita!". Until then, you were still in the state of "not remembering". I hope that makes sense.

Remember upstream the English translation of "Wasurete ita" = Had forgotten. Rather than get mired in states of mind, who is forgetting what when for how long to whom etc. run it past yourself first in your native language. If "I had forgotten the color...Oh, I just remembered !" No doubt....too strange, right ? "Oh, sure. I had forgotten XYZ..." is what we say when the memory comes back not spontaneously but after getting a boost from some external prompt. In that case, back out to a simple "forgot." Your brain can function normally again.

I'm serious when it comes to overthinking in Japan. It's like a mortal sin that can cause far more problems than are necessary. And it's a universal tendancy. The people are SO happy for foreigners to simply communciate their needs and thoughts effectively, without getting hung up and frustrated about having perfect grammar. Of course being technically correct can be crucial in increasing your chances of being clear --- but obviously...they don't understand you, and you don't get what you want.


がんばってね！

 

[Elizabeth]

I get that, but there has to be a difference between the two, right? I wouldn't say "I forget my keys!", it sounds weird, I'm sure there are occasions where between the two one is "wrong" as aardwolf said he got corrected?

忘れている can be used to mean both "have forgotten" (still in a state of non rememberance) and present progressive "forgetting" as an ongoing action. When I am the subject, normally it is the latter. *Credit my own quick and dirty rule of thumb.*

So working in an example with the -te form:

いつも鍵を忘れている。 (I am constantly forgetting my keys !)

 

[Putrefaction]

It should be wasureta instead of wasurete-ita here because.... you didn't remember it until when you said "aa, omoidashita!". Until then, you were still in the state of "not remembering". I hope that makes sense.

Oh, so they're both wasureta? Hmm. You're right, that makes sense, not sure why I put that again. I'll see if I can come up with an example that uses it at the end, if you can check it!

Remember upstream the English translation of "Wasurete ita" = Had forgotten. Rather than get mired in states of mind, who is forgetting what when for how long to whom etc. run it past yourself first in your native language. If "I had forgotten the color...Oh, I just remembered !" No doubt....too strange, right ? "Oh, sure. I had forgotten XYZ..." is what we say when the memory comes back not spontaneously but after getting a boost from some external prompt. In that case, back out to a simple "forgot." Your brain can function normally again.

You're right, those do sound really weird. My mind came right back to forgot, which is past tense

I'm serious when it comes to overthinking in Japan. It's like a mortal sin that can cause far more problems than are necessary. And it's a universal tendancy. The people are SO happy for foreigners to simply communciate their needs and thoughts effectively, without getting hung up and frustrated about having perfect grammar. Of course being technically correct can be crucial in increasing your chances of being clear --- but obviously...they don't understand you, and you don't get what you want.


がんばってね！

It is a dual-sided sword, I swore to myself to be grammatically correct unlike how I am in English, but casual talk is more...casual! I need to be able to get the grammar down somewhat perfectly.

:sorry:

忘れている can be used to mean both "have forgotten" (still in a state of non rememberance) and present progressive "forgetting" as an ongoing action. When I am the subject, normally it is the latter. *Credit my own quick and dirty rule of thumb.*

I was about to ask you on that! Right, I "have forgotten". Your sentence works perfectly; in my sentence, could it be wazurete iru?


Once again, I want to thank everyone--ASHIKAGA, elizabeth, undrentide, Toritoribe, aardwolf (started it!) noreamon, everyone!

 

[Elizabeth]

Japanese is tough to grasp, it doesn't help I'm not super keen :?

It's not super clear, that's for sure. The people are famously misunderstand for their silence, Invisible language, euphemisms and indirect expressions. Since these tend to be considered as synonymous with polite speech, verify EVERYTHING with a double or even triple check. I had an international rice cooker order dropped just last night for the confusing and awkward writing. Nothing is ever as it seems on first glance. Gaps in the delivery and payment information on each order and multiple validation form can be fatal. But that suihanki is already the focus of my kitchen and I'm not giving up on it yet ! haha

 

[Putrefaction]

That sounds extremely, and sometimes over-the-top complicated? I hope you do get it.

If I may cross topics:

Anything the Japan Times puts out is quite good, I agree. But ALL textbooks are only going to differ around the edges compared to the like 99.9999%+ of real Japanese they leave out. If you're motivated, you'll pick it up from any decent and standard materials. They key to real learning of course is to expose yourself as much as possible to native, adult-level language simultaneously while using the text as sort of a touchstone or reference. Oh...and resigning yourself to not understanding a sentence in the paper or on the radio for 2-3 years.

Yeah, I get what you meant, I doubt this is really used in day-to-day language. I'm not sure how to expose myself to adult language and such, but I've already resigned myself to what you said earlier. Though when I was playing FFX International, I read a few simple sentences that I pretty much understood, and others that through Kanji I derived their meanings. Unfortunately the audio is in English. Speaking of which, I'll also be posting images from FFIX.