hoka ni/hoka no & chocolate strawberries

[okaeri_man]

you know i've never fully understood when to use hoka ni and hoka no. they both mean the same thing in english right? my solution is to always use hoka no.

chocolate strawberries - i don't think i've ever seen one before.

 

[Glenn]

ほかに - Adverbial phrase. Use it to modify verbs, adjectives, or other adverbs

ほかの - Adjectival phrase. Use it to modify nouns or pronouns.

I do agree that sometimes it can be a bit tricky, but I think that mostly has to do with the tendencies of Japanese people to modify things differently than English speakers do.

ほかに何かがお要りになりますか。 Here it's modifying "need."
ほかの雑誌はないのか。 Here it's modifying "magazine."

Does that help at all?

About the chocolate strawberries, do you mean chocolate covered strawberries or strawberries dipped in chocolate?

 

[PaulTB]

About the chocolate strawberries, do you mean chocolate covered strawberries or strawberries dipped in chocolate?

I may be going out on a limb here - but wouldn't strawberries dipped in chocolate be chocolate covered strawberries?

 

[Glenn]

I don't think you're going out on a limb, but I also know that people tend to refer to things inaccurately a lot of the time. This may not be the best example as far as general population, but I've heard sportscasters say, "he's got a hamstring," meaning that someone has an injured hamstring. I always think, "wow, so that's his problem. Most people have two."

 

[okaeri_man]

Well in theory that all sounds ok, but I'm still confused. in some example sentences in my dictionary, it has:
ほかに質問はありませんか
ほかにだれがパーテイーに来ますか

and in my "making out in japanese" (revised edition)
ほかに彼女/彼氏ができたの？

i don't understand the use of に in any of those sentences.

strawberries covered in chocolate. which yes, i agree with Paul, aren't they the same as strawberries dipped in chocolate?

 

[Glenn]

Oops, I misunderstood what he was saying. No, I think of strawberries covered in chocolate as being completely covered in chocolate, while strawberries dipped in chocolate are only partly covered by the chocolate.

About the use of に, it modifies ありません, 来ます, and できた, respectively. I think it's just a "Japanese thing" as to why they modify the verb instead of the nouns. I can't do any better than that for you right now.

 

[PaulTB]

well in theory that all sounds ok, but i'm still confused. in some example sentences in my dictionary, it has:
ほかに質問はありませんか。

It would probably be easier to consider slightly rearranged.
質問はほかにありませんか。

ほかにありませんか。 "Is there nothing else?"
質問はほかにありませんか。"As for questions is there nothing else?"

Of course that's an overly literal translation but it should give you the general idea.

 

[okaeri_man]

Well ok then. is the use of の in the above sentences incorrect, or just strange, or ok?

 

[PaulTB]

well ok then. is the use of の in the above sentences incorrect, or just strange, or ok?

Which above sentences? Assuming you mean these two ...

ほかに質問はありませんか。
ほかにだれがパーテイーに来ますか。

I would have guessed the first one would be OK but on checking it appears probably not. Possibly because ほかの質問は would imply that the 'other questions' had already been established as a topic.

As for the other one I don't think ほかのだれ sounds natural, although ほかのだれか might do.

 

[Scrivener]

Maybe you can think of "hoka ni" as being a kind of complete phrase meaning "apart from that, " and "hoka no" as needing to attach itself to a word so it means "another X".

ほかに質問はありませんか。: [Apart from that,] are there any questions?
ほかの質問はありませんか。: Is there [another+question]?

Yes the meaning is similar but the grammar is different. If you were saying them out loud, you might pause slightly after hoka ni, but you would never pause after hoka no.

 

[Elizabeth]

It might also help to look at the two patterns in a single sentence.

For instance, 彼はタイプライターのほかに、ワープロも持っている。
Besides a typewriter, he also has a word processor.

One thing I have trouble with this in conversation is getting the "mo" in the right spot.
For some reason I always want to make はかにも, which is perfectly natural in some cases, just a matter of which ones....