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Sanglant

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These two words are killing me. :p

My japanese is extremely basic so I've been finding some more complex sentences online to help get a better grasp on syntax. I came across the following:

Karera wa watashi ni karera no tame ni Nihon no uta o utau you ni tanomimashita.

which was translated as "They asked me to sing a Japanese song for them."

I started walking through the translation myself trying to see how to get from point A to B and came up with what, to me, seemed a more literal interpretation.

"They asked me to sing a Japanese song for their benefit."

However my version doesn't take into account the "you ni" because I haven't a clue how to translate that.

The online dictionaries give me definitions like "way; manner; kind; sort; appearance; like; such as;" etc. but I'm not seeing a way to turn any of those into an adverb the ni indicates.

Is this one of those uniquely Japanese phrases that requires a lot of exposure to really grasp all the possible meanings or am I missing something?
 

GaijinPunch

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Yeah, this one is very tricky... at least at first. Basically, it's used.... exactly as the example above.

"They asked me to sing a Japanese song for their benefit."

Karera no tame ni nihon no uta wo utau you ni tanomimashita

Basically, when you're ask, or told to do something. The tricky part is, the verb is very often implied, or a different verb.

michi wo watasanai you ni onegaishimasu (do not cross the road)
suberanai you ni ki wo tsukete (be careful as not to slip)
ookiku naru you ni yoku tabete kudasai (please eat well as to grow big)

You'll very often here something like:
chikoku shinai you ni ne (don't be late). See? No verb at all.Y

If it's dictionary form verb + you ni it's something like what's shown above.
If it's noun + you ni, it's the easier to understand "like a [noun]".

HTH
GP
 

nhk9

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I've read from a grammar book before about this you ni, and basically think of this as "so that".

Take the example of chikoku shinai you ni ne, as given above... (do something) SO THAT you are not late.

But sometimes the "so that" meaning might not hold as in the following examples, with verbs like onegaishimasu (request) or yobikakeru (warn)

michi wo watasanai you ni onegaishimasu (in here, "so that" wouldn't really make sense, but the sentence just means "i hope SUCH THAT you do not cross the road"... take it as something like that.

what you would hear from weather news is like:
ooame ni chuui suru you (ni) yobikaketeimasu
The (weather center) is calling out SO THAT (one) is (going to) pay attention to the rainfall.

Note that "you ni" is usually shortened as "you" in newspapers and tv news etc.

Finally, there's this difference between you ni and tame ni which some students tend to mix up. I think the rule of thumb is that the potential form of verb usually goes with you ni and normal form goes with tame ni. But of course there are exceptions, such as the one about "do not cross the road".

nhk9
 

nhk9

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私は日本語ができるよう(に)毎日一生懸命勉強してる。

母は私の置いちゃった宿題を(私に)送るために、わざ と学校に行ってきてくれました。
 

epigene

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This is not relevant to the topic of the thread but:

母は私の置いちゃった宿題を(私に)送るために、わざ と学校に行ってきてくれました。
ー>母は私が置き忘れた宿題を(私に)とどけるために、わざわざ学校にきてくれました

(I'm not absolutely sure whether "watashi" is at home or at school in this sentence.) 😅
 

GaijinPunch

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I think maybe 私が置いちゃった or 置いて忘れた is better, no? Epigene's sounds like the homework I forgot to put somewhere (meaning you brought it).
 

epigene

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GaijinPunch said:
I think maybe 私が置いちゃった or 置いて忘れた is better, no? Epigene's sounds like the homework I forgot to put somewhere (meaning you brought it) :?
I thought the sentence means that Mother brought to (me at) school the homework I forgot at home.

置き忘れた means (I) forgot, in the sense that I left it lying somewhere (home in this case)
置いちゃった would mean "placed (it)" only and not forgotten
置いて忘れた is basically awkward but appears to be used if you Google it, such as 棚に置いて忘れた
Google hits for 置き忘れた:35,900
置いて忘れた: 916
😅
 

Elizabeth

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Finally, there's this difference between you ni and tame ni which some students tend to mix up. I think the rule of thumb is that the potential form of verb usually goes with you ni and normal form goes with tame ni. But of course there are exceptions, such as the one about "do not cross the road".

nhk9
I think the main difference between you ni (used to convey the way something should be done, not in the sense of a request or advice) and tame ni is that the latter expresses a much stronger sense of purpose. The speaker believes the outcome described in the first clause will be a natural result of certain actions taken in the second.

No one would choose 熱をださないために、会社でそんなにせっせと(?)働かないでください for instance because not working so hard is no guarantee of not getting a fever. Well, this may not be such a good example because 'you ni' doesn't really fit either, but you get the point.... :sorry:
 
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GaijinPunch

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Google hits for 置き忘れた

Can't argue with Google (most of the time). Actually never heard the above. Considering something like 言い忘れた is forgot to say, figured 置く would follow soot. :) Should probably slow down.
 

Glenn

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epigene said:
Google hits for 置き忘れた:35,900
置いて忘れた: 916
😊

It looks to me like the former is a compound verb whose pattern (Vmasu + wasureru) is common to mean "forget to V," while the latter is a concatenation of two verbs: "places, and forgot."
 

epigene

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Glenn said:
It looks to me like the former is a compound verb whose pattern (Vmasu + wasureru) is common to mean "forget to V," while the latter is a concatenation of two verbs: "places, and forgot."
If it meant the latter, it should be 置いて、忘れた with the "ten."
It is very common even for Japanese to say this erroneously as they think and speak at the same time. However, this must be pointed out as "awkward" here because learners will think it is correct to say it. There are people who don't proofread what they write (like myself). 😅
 

Glenn

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epigene said:
There are people who don't proofread what they write (like myself). 😌

Haha. Well, I've only seen the occasional typo in Japanese that you make, usually because I don't understand something, but I almost never see you make a mistake in English. How does that work? :D:p

At any rate, there are a lot of people out there who don't even seem to care about being close to correct when typing English. I can't be sure, because I don't read Japanese pages that are comparable to the more informal English ones that I read, but to me it seems that you're more likely to come across mangled English than Japanese. On either side of the divide it is without doubt an obstacle to learning the language.
 

GaijinPunch

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Glenn said:
It looks to me like the former is a compound verb whose pattern (Vmasu + wasureru) is common to mean "forget to V," while the latter is a concatenation of two verbs: "places, and forgot."

Exactly what I thought, until I looked it up. I never forget anything though, so obviously have no use for this word. :)
 

epigene

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Glenn said:
Haha. Well, I've only seen the occasional typo in Japanese that you make, usually because I don't understand something, but I almost never see you make a mistake in English. How does that work?
My low vision becomes a problem in "henkan" (and the need to press return to go to the next input), which I sometimes don't bother to look carefully, especially when I'm in a hurry. 😌 English is much easier because I can see what I type right away. I also have text-to-speech in English. 😌

Japanese is so unfriendly to people with disabilities. :box:
 

Glenn

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epigene said:
My low vision becomes a problem in "henkan" (and the need to press return to go to the next input), which I sometimes don't bother to look carefully, especially when I'm in a hurry. 😌 English is much easier because I can see what I type right away.

Good point. I often have the same problem with conversions, and when I mistype something I sometimes miss the typo, and get something like 英語 for 敬語, which did happen before. 😌:D I guess I just think that it gets them all right the first time. Kotoeri is really good about input. I like it much better than Microsoft's IME, because I can always go down to the kana, whereas with IME sometimes it won't let you break down syllables into their kana and select conversions (or lack thereof) individually. Kotoeri also would show the hiragana and katakana next to each other so that they are easy to find, something that IME doesn't do. I don't know why, but it'll stick the katakana any old place it feels like, which can make finding it when you want it frustrating and time-consuming.

epigene said:
I also have text-to-speech in English. 😅

Japanese is so unfriendly to people with disabilities. :box:

Yeah, I can see where that would be helpful. The Japanese doesn't have text-to-speech? I would have thought that it would.
 

epigene

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Yeah, I can see where that would be helpful. The Japanese doesn't have text-to-speech? I would have thought that it would.
Yes, there is. But it's quite expensive, and I don't need it for my work. (My job requires me to type in English most of the time.) Also, Japanese text-to-speech voice is not as advanced as in English. If you have a chance, listen to AT&T Natural Voices. The Japanese voice software sounds like an alien from outer space. 😊
 

nhk9

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epigene said:
This is not relevant to the topic of the thread but:

母は私の置いちゃった宿題を(私に)送るために、わざ と学校に行ってきてくれました。
ー>母は私が置き忘れた宿題を(私に)とどけるために、わざわざ学校にきてくれました

(I'm not absolutely sure whether "watashi" is at home or at school in this sentence.) 😌


Thanks for correcting me there. I always seem to mix up okuru and todokeru... have mixed it up in tests previously... arg

Anyway, on a side note, isn't WAZATO pretty similar to WAZAWAZA? It seems to me that when someone's doing a favour by coming to you, wazawaza is preferred... but is there any case in which wazato is preferred over wazawaza?
 

epigene

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nhk9 said:
Thanks for correcting me there. I always seem to mix up okuru and todokeru... have mixed it up in tests previously... arg

Anyway, on a side note, isn't WAZATO pretty similar to WAZAWAZA? It seems to me that when someone's doing a favour by coming to you, wazawaza is preferred... but is there any case in which wazato is preferred over wazawaza?
Sorry for shooting away from the topic! 😌

"Wazato" and "wazawaza" are similar, but the first one implies action that is intentional, suggesting an implicit motive and usually ending with a negative result. "Wazawaza" suggests special effort made, going out of the way, for someone or something--so this is usually something positive and is appreciated. Hope this helps! 😌
 

Elizabeth

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epigene said:
Sorry for shooting away from the topic! 😌

"Wazato" and "wazawaza" are similar, but the first one implies action that is intentional, suggesting an implicit motive and usually ending with a negative result. "Wazawaza" suggests special effort made, going out of the way, for someone or something--so this is usually something positive and is appreciated. Hope this helps! 😌
Thanks, Epigene ! It does help. I have encountered wazato on news broadcasts in particular (not that I get a lot of other exposure), now that context for it becomes much more meaningful. :)
 
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母は私の置いちゃった宿題を(私に)送るために、わざ と学校に行ってきてくれました。
Problems of this sentence
"学校に行ってきてくれました。"
Where am I?
There is me outside a school

Japanese general interpretation・・・・TO OMOU
家に忘れた宿題を、母が(わざわざ)届けてくれた。
 
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