Gun control laws in the US

RolandtheHeadless said:
Sorry if I offended Australian sensibilities, but our history and culture are very different from yours. More importantly, our mythology is different from yours. Mythology is never to be dismissed; you can tell a lot about a culture by its mythology.

My understanding is that AU was settled solely by British (mainly convicts) and without guns. The US was settled by various European super-powers (England, France, Spain) who were warring on our lands for a couple of centuries. You blokes didn't have these various Europeans invading your land and killing your people.

AU didn't have large populations of hostile Natives. At least I don't recall hearing of many aboriginal massacres of white settlements there.

AU didn't have any large dangerous animals to contend with. A grizzly would make mince-meat out of a pack of dingos.

Our mythology includes the citizen minuteman who would grab his rifle to fight for independence against the Brits and their brutal German mercenaries; the west-bound pioneer who needed guns to contend with Indians and animals; the sheriff who cleaned up crime-ridden towns; the cowboy who used his six-gun to drop runaway horses and ornery steers; and the armed citizens who still use guns to defend themselves against criminals.

You will NEVER get Americans to think like Australians. The number of guns in private ownership here is 270,000,000 -- almost one for every member of our population, man, woman, and child. Guns in the United States: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

Ban all but one-shot firearms?!! That sounds so absurd to me that I can hardly figure out where to respond. Carry a one-shot weapon in grizzly country? I know the old mountain men did that, but that's only because they didn't have repeaters. Limit personal defense guns to one-shot? Why don't you tell the police to do that, and see how far you get. What do you do with multiple assailants or some meth-crazed attacker who doesn't even feel your first shot?

I was raised with guns and have been handling and shooting them for almost four decades. To me, a gun is a tool for meat-hunting, sport, and defense -- to be respected, yes, but no more inherently dangerous than a chainsaw or automobile. Mr. Roberts, you and I will probably never understand the other's perspective.
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Roland... if ur gonna have a go at national identity and culture, look to your own first.. everything you just mentioned is extremely inaccurate.. we had problems of our own, extreme problems. How easy do you think it was to overcome having a culture of convicts, police, and native slaughters? But we fixed them over time. Can your nation say the same? You pretend to know a lot, but you are definitely over-reaching on some very important points,including your own!

It is different, of course it is, but a country cannot be measured just by how it was forged and made, but how it actually is! You can't seem to grasp that concept. You are moving, NOWHERE.. again!
 
As I said, we're not likely to convince each other of anything. I'll make a deal with you, though:

I won't tell you how to do things in AU, if you won't tell me how we should do things here.

I won't try to export Americanism to AU, if you won't try to export Australianism to America.
 
I won't tell you how to do things in AU, if you won't tell me how we should do things here.
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The key to success is, of course, to ignore advice from friends, ignore the experiences of those doing better than you, and stubbornly charge forward headlong no matter what you see, smell or hear.

This is an international FORUM Roland. I am American. And I want to hear it.

But then, I saw gun addiction coming my way, and I avoided it.

All that said, this is your thread. If you want the topic focused on U.S. control laws only, you need to make that clear a.s.a.p., along with a few other things. Cause if this is remotely about improving U.S. gun control laws, the experience of other countries is highly relevant.
 
I think i'm with Mark on this one, if that is allowable.. and acceptable to you Roland. Our minds are one!
 
"But then, I saw gun addiction coming my way, and I avoided it."

Wise decision. I wouldn't want to see you loose with a gun, either.

Tim Roberts, your proposals are absurd from an American perspective, and will never be adopted here.
 
RolandtheHeadless said:
Wise decision. I wouldn't want to see you loose with a gun, either.
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Oh, but I have been loose with guns. And bows. And knives. The only injury or death I caused was one little bird. One. And I aimed to kill and I feel bad about it.

Even though I have called you a gun nut finally, and only after listening to you and careful consideration, it does not mean I think that you yourself are a danger, nor have I said that, nor would it be possible to determine that over the net, as you seem to think. It is your stance on the matter that is a danger, because you refuse to acknowledge the needless carnage it wreaks as OTHERS besides you get their hands on guns.

All your argumentation here is pitiful and selfish. Its a shame since we otherwise agree on so much else.

Its also interesting to note how people think its me that does not care about children, given other threads on other subjects, but your ways get so many killed and maimed. Its as interesting as it is bizarre how people get numb to violence, death and guns, but sex still shocks and scares them. Its a GD shame too. Sex is a wonderful thing.

I hope one day you get out of Alaska, and the U.S., and live long term some place where you can see sane and meaningful gun control at work and talk directly with the calm rational people who live there and who don't live in fear like you and our countrymen.
 
Tim Roberts said:
I think i'm with Mark on this one, if that is allowable.. and acceptable to you Roland. Our minds are one!
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Well, that's your choice. Tit for tat then, and don't complain when I point out your country's human rights abuse by denying law-abiding citizens the right to be equal to the criminals whom you admit have guns.

Funny thing about criminals, they ain't inclined to obey laws including gun laws. Go figure. Your country may seize all the guns it wishes from law-respecting citizens, but if criminals can still import street drugs and illegal immigrants, you can't stop them from importing guns.

You sound like a typical urbanite who has no familiarity with guns except for the stupid and psychopathic uses you see in movies and games. No wonder you're scared to death of them. Guns are all possessed by demons and will strike you down if you allow them!

What on earth do you intend to do if you're confronted with an armed criminal who figures you're an easy target because you respect the law and the law doesn't allow you a gun? Lecture him?

More likely, you'll fall to your knees and beg him not to kill you, rape you, or put you in the hospital. You'll be completely at his mercy. The police can't protect you, though they may well try to turn your country into a police dictatorship in the so-called attempt.

Seriously, have you ever been the victim of a crime? A violent crime? Aside from the physical damage, you can never imagine the psychic and emotional trauma lasting for years unless you have. You may still not want a gun, but it WILL change your perspective about making yourself an easy target for the rest of your life.

Btw, you never pointed out any description I gave of your country's history and character that is incorrect.
 
Talking crap, putting words in peoples mouths, and changing the topic isn't going to get you or your country very far on avoiding gun violence and violent crime.
 
So Tim Roberts, you want to impose AU's gun laws on the US, but you can't defend them from reasoned questions and criticism? Good luck with that approach.
 
You're doing it again Roland [putting words in peoples mouths]. I explained to you how Australia gun laws had an effect here. We also talked about how many other countries adopted their own gun controls with similar results. You are demonstrating that you are not willing to listen to what other people have to say, and are showing them no respect just because their view is not your own. I am beginning to see that you are not here for discussion. I don't recall seeing a reasoned question from you that i did not show you the respect of trying to respond to.

Well congratulations, you've turned this is into a 'gun slinging'. You have completely contradicted yourself several times now and now that you can't have your way, you have a gun aimed at an unarmed person and you're about to pull the trigger simply because they 'might' disagree with you. All that makes you is a bully. Maybe Mark was wrong about one thing, maybe you are dangerous. Not a good advertisement for guns if all you can achieve is intimidation. Case in point?

You have your opinion, i have mine. I have better things to do with my time Roland. You can't even keep on topic.
 
"You have your opinion, i have mine. I have better things to do with my time Roland. You can't even keep on topic."

We finally have found something to agree on.
 
RolandtheHeadless said:
Well, that's your choice. Tit for tat then, and don't complain when I point out your country's human rights abuse by denying law-abiding citizens the right to be equal to the criminals whom you admit have guns.

Funny thing about criminals, they ain't inclined to obey laws including gun laws. Go figure.
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Here we go. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Its amazing how Roland is going through the gun nut argumentation playbook almost religiously. Make me wonder if they have a gun nut bible out there to glean this garbage.

He says "criminals" like a religious dogmat might say "unbelievers" or "demons". He treats them like some monolithic, easily identifiable gang of people out to get us. It is the speech of fear mongering.

He speaks of criminals like they are a marauding vicious gang roaming the country side in search of victims, and the police, national guard and army are powerless to stop them. He speaks as if they shoplift at will, any time they feel like it. As if they don't bother with getting driver's licenses. As if they don't pay taxes. As if they are raping your wives on the street in broad daylight, and shooting at police with automatic weapons every day in every city in America.

This is just complete paranoia. In fact, criminals DO FOLLOW MOST LAWS. If they wantonly broke the law, they would invite attention and would be in jail really really fast. Most criminals of any sort don't want to go to jail. So they obey most laws, including gun laws.

He also speaks of criminals as if they are all pros, which is rubbish. If a guy robbed a bank 8 years ago and just got released from prison, is he still a criminal? What if 20 years later he has committed no crimes? Still a criminal? What if a guy with a clean record goes nuts one day and shoots his family and kills himself? Do we look back and say that from birth to death, he was a criminal?

This whole chant of "the criminals" is nutty from start to finish. Where would we draw the line anyway? Is every American who ever got a speeding ticket a "criminal"?

And let us not forget that the primary reason any criminal in America would break any law on guns in order to obtain one is simply because he is afraid of getting shot. The over-whelming majority of crimes in America are property crimes. If a guy breaks into your house to steal your TV, why would he bring a gun? Cause he is scared you might have one! And why do you have one? To protect your TV?

Is your TV worth having a gun in your house, a gun which may be used in killing one of your family members by accident or suicide or by being discovered by an intruder? Is your TV worth provoking a thief to arm himself which might result in that gun being used against one of your family members who surprised him in the act?

I am well aware of the need and desire to protect oneself from violent crime, even though violent crimes are statistically speaking a tiny minority. But you could protect yourself by running, use of pepper spray, having a dog, using a cane, using a stun gun, walking with friends, using martial arts, etc. etc. ad naseum if not for the simple fact that in America guns are everywhere.

If guns weren't everywhere you would be safer, exactly the same as other developed countries where guns are not everywhere. If we had gun control laws like other countries gun control laws, you would be safer, just like other developed countries with gun control laws America does not have.

denying law-abiding citizens the right to be equal to the criminals whom you admit have guns.
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The trouble is that you don't want to admit that criminals arm themselves to as to be equal to potential victims just as much as the other way around. Its because of this game of one-upmanship that gun violence has spiraled up and up in America over the years.

Its like a poker game and you think you can win the pot by upping the ante. You are sure the others will fold. But they see your raise, you sit there in denial that its happened, and later sit there in denial that you lost the game and all your money.
 
I would like to share my opinion here.
I'm with Each family to have weapon but not singles, The old man in the family will use weapons to protect his family.

Yemen comes after the U.S in Gun culture but it's not like anyone can have gun, You need a license [ in big cities ] and usually people at 30 to 50 carry weapons not adults.
 
Hezam, despite your intention, and mine and many people's ignorance.. you have entered your 'Jihad' into a volatile topic of discussion. That is who you pertain to be yes?

If you want to go off topic, not saying that you do, but if you do, start another thread so i can kick your a$$..

Really!

Now.. i know that is not your intention. I both respect and admire your opinion about gun responsibility, but you need to tell us more than that!
 
I have to say that I like the gun control system that Japan has. I believe it takes quite a bit more guts and actual strength to stab someone than it does to shoot someone. I think the US would be far better off with no legal guns and to finally rid ourselves of this stupid "home grown militia" concept. The whole concept is outdated and irrelevant. We have a military to defend our country. To my understanding, we had separate militias in order to prevent a government controlled military, since we have one, why do we need militias too? The whole apocalyptic paranoia revolving around the issue really serves no purpose, and, for the most part, is simply an excuse to inflate an individual's ego. Go buy a truck.

The other question is how to rid the abundance of illegal guns that are already everywhere. If anyone would make a plan to address the issue, I would be for stronger gun control laws. However, it seems to me that politicians would rather debate the issue than form any sort of realistic plan. A well laid plan can move more individuals than any sort of debate can generate.
 
Tim Roberts said:
Hezam, despite your intention, and mine and many people's ignorance.. you have entered your 'Jihad' into a volatile topic of discussion. That is who you pertain to be yes?
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OMG ! i'm talking about gun control >_< how did you end up with "jihad" ??!
Number 1 in Gun culture is the U.S , Number 2 is Yemen according to UN report.

What i meant is i support each family to have a weapon ( gun - shotgun - not heavy weapons ) but i'm against weapon license to gangs and persons under 30 years old.

Just my opinion so please no offense otherwise i'm out.
 
Hezam, i am a kindred spirit to opinions, truth and discussion. I did not mean to make any offense. I hope you will stay in..

Have a happy new year!

I need to understand more about what is happening in Yemen, i don't know much about it.
 
"I have to say that I like the gun control system that Japan has."

Japanese history and culture are quite different. Every class but nobles (samurai ) were always denied the right to arms and self-defense; heck, before the WW II occupation the common people didn't even have a vote.

The US system derives from the common law and heritage of England, where free-men were considered to have the inherent, God-given right to arms and self-defense.

"I believe it takes quite a bit more guts and actual strength to stab someone than it does to shoot someone."

Taken in context, this is the most incredible statement made by anyone in this thread! As if a defense of life situation should be based on a contest of strength and skill, a sporting competition. Sounds like someone has been playing way too many video games.

No doubt young and strong males who form the typical violent criminal would love such rule that deprives females and older people (typical victims) of an equalizing means of self-defense. Real life or death situations aren't games.

"I think the US would be far better off with no legal guns and to finally rid ourselves of this stupid "home grown militia" concept."

You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact is that our constitution recognizes that we have a right to keep and bear arms for our own self-protection. See, District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 US 570 (2008), in which the US Supreme Court struck down a Washington, DC ban on handguns. Good luck with a constitutional amendment.

"The other question is how to rid the abundance of illegal guns that are already everywhere."

Again, reading in context, I assume you're talking about the US. And I'll point out that Japan and AU undoubtedly have more illegal guns than the US does.

If you're talking about worldwide, then I'll agree with you -- there are lots of illegal firearms around the world, and every time we try to ban some new type of gun, there are going to be more. Gosh darn it, these criminals just won't follow the law!

How's the war on drugs working for you?
 
Good luck with a constitutional amendment.
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That was the idea. I didn't say that it was plausible, just correct from my viewpoint.

Gosh darn it, these criminals just won't follow the law! How's the war on drugs working for you?
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Anything difficult is not worth doing? I guess it's a good thing your a guy, or you would keel over dead in your 3rd trimester.

As if a defense of life situation should be based on a contest of strength and skill, a sporting competition. Sounds like someone has been playing way too many video games.
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It simply takes more thought and energy to stab someone, and yes an officer of the law would have more strength and experience to stop such an assault.
 
Roland, you speak as if there are no alternatives to a firearm for protection, and that is obviously incorrect, nor is a gun the most effective in many situations. You can't compare guns to drugs, the alternatives to them are very different, with drugs there basically aren't any, and it is by and large an anti-social problem. To change how we deal with drugs means changing how our communities support each other. To change the incidence of mass shootings, we need to make access to firearms limited to sensible purposes. That would not need to violate your countries constitution. You seem hellbent on the idea that nothing should change, nothing will help reduce gun violence, and nothing at all can be done. It is obvious that is simply your viewpoint, because there are any number of possibilities that will help reduce gun violence, some of those ideas have already been thrown around on this thread. You seem to be passing off your viewpoint as though it is an unchangeable law. That is far from the truth.

I am not going to have a conversation with you about what your country needs to do to curb gun violence, but my viewpoint is clear.. it seems to me that something DOES need to change in the US in regards to having a robust and sensible system of access to guns.

To answer your other question about illegal firearms, Australia does not have a big problem with it. Do you know how many deaths in Australia there were in the months of November and December just passed from a firearm of any type? 'zero'
 

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