gospel music at work?

[Goldiegirl]

So, I've been thinking about religion lately. I started a new job, and one of the young women I work with says she is very religious. I don't care what religion you are or aren't just as long as you don't try and recruit me. If I have a question I'll ask, otherwise lets talk about the weather.

The other day while we were working together she turned on the radio. That's fine I like music of just about any kind. However, she turned on gospel music. I am sorry, but that is where I drew the line. I told her to change channels. She said she had to listen to gospel music because she was missing church that day. I said that her gospel music was improper to me and out of line at work; I went and turned it off. She was angry because she explained to me that religion was important to her. I told her that was fine but when it's pushed on me it crosses the line. I don't need to hear gospel music at work. It was like being forced to go to church. It wasn't a heated discussion, but I know she is upset.

Anyway, I think overall that I am very accepting of people's religion or beliefs. If it makes you happy and doesn't hurt others why not. I have always felt that there is no one religion, no one way to get to heaven, nirvana whatever. Then I just read an article that said that Americans are pretty tolerant overall to other beliefs.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080623/us_time/christiansnoonepathtosalvation

What do you think? Are you tolerant? Do you care what somebody's religion/belief is, would it be important to you in a boy/girl friend, just friend, or spouse? Oh, and was it mean/wrong that I asked for different music? (I should mention we deal with the public so they have to hear what ever music we are listening to.)

 

[nice gaijin]

If she insists on playing gospel, bring your own radio and crank the azaan (muslim call to prayer). Then calmly explain that your religion is really important for you. Don't get into a debate, just show her how her actions make others feel.

I'm very tolerant of other people's religion, and I'll let them talk about if they'd like (though they aren't going to convince me of anything). Still, I grow tired of proselytizers, and the office is no place for religion if it makes others uncomfortable. Perhaps she is complaining that you aren't being sensitive to her religious beliefs, but she is doing the exact same thing to you.

 

[Ashikaga]

I can only talk about the religious music at work issue .

If it was just for an hour or so, I would just let it go. If it was an ALL DAY LONG thing...then no.

When I used to work in retail, there were a few co-workers who objected to playing Christmas music non-stop for about a month leading up to Christmas.
Although I felt the same way, I understood that it was a retail store and if playing Christmas music in the store helped hike up the sales, so be it.

In an office setting, and I think that is your case, the question is not so much how tolerant YOU are but more about how considerate to others your colleague is. Is it worth it to say something to that person? I am not sure. As much as I do not appreciate being forced to listen to religious music, I most likely try to be the bigger person and wouldn't say or do anything because the last thing I would want is creating tension between my colleague and I that might have a negative effect on the work we do together.... and hope and pray to my Atheist God that my colleague wouldn't make it into a habit.

 

[Mars Man]

I'm sure you have your reasons, of course, but am a bit (only a bit) surprized that this was not entered under Serious Discussions. Anyway, to answer to your post.

What might be 'tolerance?' I'm sure there'll be some average of understanding on just what that can be defined as in the sense of the actual referent for the concept--as opposed to simply a dictionary definition. Should a person be of a frame of mind that allows others to believe and act (due to that belief) in almost anyway they may please (within otherwise legal bounds, of course)? I'm not real sure.

However, at the same time, sharing humanistic space is a fact of our reality, and that could come into play here (such as figuring out a balance of proper share of 'turn taking' if you will). If that person were to attempt to listen to religious belief-system based music, talk shows, speeches rather often, that'd be one thing, but if it were a kind of a 'once in a blue moon' type thing, perhaps letting the person have their turn (since it's so rare an event) might be more humanistic...maybe.

I tend to think that just as much as a person of a religious belief-system has a right to speak about their beliefs to others (especially in the USA that is true), others have the right to speak about their beliefs. So, for example, I am just as free to speak on how Christianity is missing some major chunks of reality in their belief-system, as church goers come out the door after a service, as, say, Jehovah's Witnesses are free to come knocking at my door, giving some otherwise thought out line and sinker.

As for boy/girl friend (of the romantic type here) situations, religious belief-system consistence is very, very important...unless it's just a fling.

Were you wrong for turning off the radio, or asking for different music? I am not in a position to really say because I don't have enough information about your workplace, the general house rules there, and so on. However, holding all other things equal, I'd presently (could change) tend to conclude that your action may have been a bit too binary in pattern--black and white, straight-lined, no gray zone at all. To that degree, I'd say it had been unrealistic--now if that equates 'mean,' or 'wrong,' I simply cannot say at the moment.

Might it have been more realistic, overall, to have let her listen to it at a volume that almost only she could have heard it? That's probably what I would have done, along with explaining (presenting an argument) why gospel music is unhealthy, and how Christianity has taken a road leading to an unknown (by it) location.

 

[Yan]

If I like the gospel music, it doesn't disturb me but if the person is too religious and she starts reading Bible and talking about that the entire day, I will not be tolerent. I'm athee so I don't believe in God or in any other religion. After millenars, the humanity still haven't learnd from their past errors. The religion is only a way to explain what human cannot explain. The Egyptians thought that the Soon, the Moon, the stars in the sky, the wind, the thunder and all that were gods. After thoursands of years, we understood how those natural phenomens worked and we understood that they were not surnatural powers and they weren't gods.

Now we know that the Earth is a circle and science is very important in our lifes but we still have a problem: religion. Some people think that science isn't true and, instead, they believe the stuff written in a old book. The Bible have not been invented for changing. If we would only believe in what Bible says, the humaity wouldn't change and we would stay primitives, ignorants. The religion is used my the U.S. president for acquiring votes in the elections. When the U.S. president says the word "God", it doesn't mean that he's religious, it's only a way to get more votes.

I think that religion is a good way to dominate the world. "if you don't do this, you're not a good Chretien". Instead of being dominated by others, the human should think by himself of what is good for him.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Hmmm, well I work in a store so whatever music we choose to listen to is played through the entire store. She could've switched to any other music. But listening to gospel music and then the preaching in between to me was not something that should be played in the work place. Religion is something you practice at your place of worship or home, basically not at work. Work, should be a more neutral zone. She could've put rap, hip-hop, jazz, country, new age and I wouldn't have batted an eye. The gospel was just too much, especially as we have people of every denomination visiting our store. I didn't ask the owner what her opinion was she wasn't there. I will tomorrow and let you know!

Mars Man-san, I didn't want this to become a volatile subject so I put it in chit-chat. I thought it would keep it more civil and light. However you can move it, I wouldn't object.

ASHIKAGA yes, the Christmas music can get a bit overdone! Here they start before Thanksgiving (November)!

 

[Ashikaga]

Ahhhh~ so it is a store you work in! What we did in our store was pick one or two stations ("soft rock" or "smooth jazz".... whatever those terms mean..lol) and did not allow any employee to change stations.

Regarding Christmas music, it IS getting ridiculous these days, isn't it? They used to at least wait until the day after Thanksgiving but not anymore. Even those Soft Rock / Smooth Jazz stations switch their playlist to ALL CHRISTMAS MUSIC sometime in November. Of course, they don't call it Christmas music these days. It is HOLIDAY MUSIC ( they throw in a couple of Chanukah songs here and there, usually Adam Sandler's "Chanukah Song" lol ).

 

[Anohito]

I'm aware of that survey on "religious tolerance" and have seen some details, and I am not impressed. What that survey claims does simply does not fit with too much that I still see in the US. It seems to me that on a number of issues, such as religion and race, Americans ini general are getting better at pretending to be broadminded or whatever when they respond to surveys. I'm convinced that more and more people do not say what they really believe, even in confidential surveys. The reasons for that are another discussion, I think, but suffice it to say that for one thing, more and more people are aware of the value of good public relations. Perhaps a problem with the survey is that many people have a self-serving idea of what "toleration" is. I have noticed people who flattered themselves that they were quite "tolerant" if they refrained from shouting out fire & brimstone sermons to those who had "inferior" beliefs. Many people congratulate themselves very much for very little when it comes to religion. I've found that people who sanctimoniously say that their religion is "very important" to them and who insist that they enjoy "talking about their religion" are nearly always extremely self-centered. Overwhelmingly, they act as though only their religion was of any importance or value at all. and "talking" about their religion invariably means a thinly disguised lecture about why their religion is the "true religion".

And tolerance isn't necessarily such a great thing. In practice it all too often becomes condescending. More than once I have heard somebody say something like "We (Christians) allow people to practice other religions in America." (emphasis mine) Freedom of religion is something that is suposed to be mandated by the US Constitution, but in practice, freedom of religion is what the Christian majority allows it to be. In order to be worth anything, freedom of religion needs be be backed by stong legal safeguards. Mere tolerance can be withdrawn at the whim of the granter.

On addition to general considerations, I have serious reservations about certain aspects of the way the survey was done. I went to the Pew Research Center (they did the survey) web site (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/876/religion-america-part-two) and looked at the article about the survey. Some of the aspects of the "Conception of God" section are ridiculous. Their figures indicate that 75% of Buddhists believe in "God" in some way. What are they talking about? "God" simply is not a part of Buddhism! Their figure is ridiculous. The bias of the survey is fairly obvious in the way it frequently speaks of "God" as though everybody agreed on what that meant. In one place they added the perfunctory qualifying phrase "or a universal spirit" to the term "God". Big deal. Even worse, their figures supposedly show that 21% of atheists believe in "God" in some way. Do those people at Pew know what an atheist is?!?!

As for the woman with the radio, I have no sympathy for her. "Gospel" music is aggressive in its sectarian religiosity. She obvously thought that her own Theological Correctness allowed her to do as she wanted. She was, at best, arrogant and inconsiderate. It is not such a large step from imposing your own religious music on others to tellnig Jews that they are "Christ killers", which happened at the US Air Force Adademy a while back.

 

[Mars Man]

More information is always good. If the music system was that of the store's system (BGM) rather than a portible radio on her desk or something, then we have a whole 'nother ball game--as ASHIKAGA has touched on.

In that case, the other worker should have (SHOULD have) known better than to break what was norm for the store's BGM. In that case, you were correct in switching off that music, and going back (as I assume you had done) to a regular genre.

While I agree, Goldiegirl san, with the sentiment of your statement:

Religion is something you practice at your place of worship or home, basically not at work. Work, should be a more neutral zone.​

I would argue that the term practice would have to be defined and described. (it's them words again) For the very deeply and emotionally attached to a religious belief-system type, it is hard to surgically remove that which is a result of having that brain state, and the individual's behavior, from that individual's behavior patterns at large. I tend to think of 'practicing' a belief-system's dogma as being more along the lines of actively executing the ceremonious and organizationally created activities. That would not include any topic of the belief-system itself from coming up during social settings, even at work (and this will be determined by degree of intensity, of course).

However, as I had mentioned above, a person's countering such conversational setting exposure with the likes of what I had mentioned, will help the other party learn not to let such come up again.

ASHIKAGA san (and others too) I too get so bent out of shape with the earlier and earlier X-mas music/decoration stuff in the retail world. We'll have to wait a while, but sooner or later it will work it's way back around to just a few days before December 25th. (As the starting date'll get earlier and earlier, going into August, and eventually even March, and then finally working it's way back to December 23rd--if we live that long.)

 

[Anohito]

[snip] I tend to think of 'practicing' a belief-system's dogma as being more along the lines of actively executing the ceremonious and organizationally created activities. That would not include any topic of the belief-system itself from coming up during social settings, even at work (and this will be determined by degree of intensity, of course).

However, as I had mentioned above, a person's countering such conversational setting exposure with the likes of what I had mentioned, will help the other party learn not to let such come up again.

The more intensely religious in the USA can have a much broader concept of what it means to practice one's religion. From my experience and observation, conservative Christians tend to have an extremely self-serving idea of practicing their religion. They can be quite aggressive about trying to convert others to their idea of the "true religion". Some are less crude about it than others, but the idea that practicing their religion by trying to "save" other people can clearly be seen in action by those willing to see it.

You may be uncomfortable by my specific mention of conservative Christians. Well, in the USA those are overwhelmingly the people who engage in the sort of activity I have described. That is the unpleasant reality of the situation. Also, based on my experience and observation, such people (for example, the radio-wielding woman at Goldiegirl's work place) are immune to logic and reason. If you are lucky, they may make a show of "discussing" religious issues with you, but they are also quite likely to make a great show of unwarranted offense at anything that does not coincide with their theology, or that (heaven forbid!) actually contradicts it.

ASHIKAGA san (and others too) I too get so bent out of shape with the earlier and earlier X-mas music/decoration stuff in the retail world. We'll have to wait a while, but sooner or later it will work it's way back around to just a few days before December 25th. (As the starting date'll get earlier and earlier, going into August, and eventually even March, and then finally working it's way back to December 23rd--if we live that long.)

A large part of the problem is that so much of the music played is lowest-common-denominator stuff, and one tends to hear the same thing over and over and over and over and over.

Are you aware of the backlash against this from many sectarian Christians (and their fellow-travelers)? Do a Google search on the phrase "war on christmas" There are extremely vocal people who want to reduce the season to a purely sectarian Christian celebration celebrated by everyone, whether they like it or not.

 

[Mycernius]

If she plays her Gospel then play your Death Metal collection
Maybe for about 15 - 20 minutes yes, let her listen to her music, after all it is only music and, as an atheist myself, I find gospel very feel good noise in the background, but I wouldn't listen to it all day. What I do loath is country music, but if the radio at work is for everyone then you will have to put up with what they want as long as they put up with what you like, even if you loath the very sound of some redneck singing about dead dogs and divorce.

This is not something I really suffer from. As a lorry driver I do not have the problem of having to put up with the annoying little problem of co-workers. I have had jobs in the past where I did have to work with people in an office type of environment and the best way is to give a little and take a little. Anyone who tried to constantly push their views, religious or otherwise, would soon find themselves "pushed out" of general conversation, or just find themselves being wound up on purpose. I am guilty of the second one because in my first job I worked with a JW who would get preachy. Now I do not push my atheism on other people unless someone wishes to engage in conversation on the matter and I do wish that some theists could do the same. If they want respect for religion then they should show it for others. Unfortunately the past has shown that the most intolerant of religions and the religious. I am a case that if you do not shown tolerance of my beliefs, or rather lack of, then I will tear down and batter your beliefs. I don't play nice to those sort.

 

[Ashikaga]

late night rant alert!!

I think it is a bit strange that we talk about "religion" as if it were some life-style choice or even one's taste in music.

If someone is a true believer of a religion, I don't think it is possible to "reason" with them.

If I were a religious person, I would be going against the society and what is considered acceptable in it rather than trying to fit in and keep the peace, somehow modifying the religion so it would be more convenient for everyone (including myself). Religion, to me, would be something absolute. I would not want anyone to "tolerate" my religion when my God is the true God.

That is why I have healthy respect for religious people even though I don't agree with what they believe as I would never be able to achieve such level of belief in anything in my life. Also, that is why I am somewhat suspicious of people who claim to be religious yet are tolerant of religions other than their own. Why would they put other people's feelings before God's?

So, what I am trying to say is that the woman was casual enough about her religion that she thought she could skip church and make it up to God by just listening to some gospel music on the radio at work.... We should treat the issue as what it really is, and that's "dealing with a co-worker whose taste in music doesn't agree with you" rather than "being tolerant of someone's religion".

I am sorry but it is late and I am not sure if I am writing what I really mean.
This IS Chit-Chat so I hope it is OK. My apologies to anyone who was offended by what I have written.

 

[nice gaijin]

As a possible compromise for the original question, I'd recommend the Blind Boys of Alabama. It's technically gospel, but the music is so good that you can groove on the blues influence and ignore the religious inferences.

as for the issue of religious tolerance, I love how it basically translates to "put up with people you know are wrong," and we all pretend it means acceptance. Just an observation.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I talked with the owner of the store. She said that she had no idea that this young woman was playing gospel music. She was kind os shocked. We usually have a light mix station playing. I was told that there should not be gospel music on or any hard core music of any variety that could be offensive or that is too obscene for children. I guess we are stuck with Celine Dion! Oy! On another note, the woman quit yesterday! She said she wanted a full time job.

You nice gaijin, I kinda agree with your opinion on tolerance, that is putting up with something. I have always tried to understand other peoples religions and beliefs, cultures. I can't put up with any that deny people their basic rights or freedoms. Of course that depends on what you think is a basic human right. I think we all KNOW what those are, it's a matter of standing up for them even in a tight or sticky situation.

Now too you have peaked my curiosity...I must look up the Blind Boys!

 

[Anohito]

[snip] We usually have a light mix station playing. I was told that there should not be gospel music on or any hard core music of any variety that could be offensive or that is too obscene for children. I guess we are stuck with Celine Dion! [snip]

Back in the mid-1990s, before Celine Dion became a big star in the US, I heard a couple of her albums and she was actually pretty good. Even today, you could get worse bland music than Celine Dion.

Considering how many people are intensely devoted to one form of Christian "gospel" music or another, I find it bitterly ironic that almost none of these people have any interest in or respect for the huge amount of Christian religious music written over the centuries. I have found that white conservative Christians who listen to very little other than slick, modern Pop-Gospel music tend to be openly contemptuous of classical religious music. Even a major figure such as J. S. Bach can be dismissed with something on the order of "Oh, nobody listens to that old stuff any more." "O tempora, O mores!"

 

[Goldiegirl]

What I found bitterly ironic with this young woman was that she is such a "christian" and yet has a child and is not married, no longer sees the father, and she was judging me? hmmm? What's wrong with that picture.

I know Anohito, Celine is not the worst, but she tends to sound the same...still better than forcing gospel on me though!