Generic Japanese GF question: Offtopic about terms for racial groups

[bossel]

aren't jews and hispanic people white?

hispanic are the spanish descendants, right?...

or is it White=aryan?

Hispanic & Jews can be of all races, actually. I think, Hispanic in the US mostly just means from South- or Meso-America. Judaism is just a religion, anyway (mostly Caucasoid members, but not only).

But it's sometimes really interesting how this all gets confused (esp. in the US, though it may happen everywhere). I suspect that Elizabeth fell prey to that confusion.

 

[Glenn]

Usually, the race of a person is irrelevant unless you need to describe them to someone else...

...I try very hard to use non-racial terms when speaking about someone else. I'd rather say, "He's the new guy that always dresses really nice and he wears glasses" than "He's that black guy."

I agree with you, and I try to do the same thing.

What politicians are you referring to as promoting these referential changes in the language ? As I recall, it was blacks themselves that argued for African American that would reflect a higher awareness of ethnic identity, assert ancestral or group pride, etc., although a majority today seem to prefer 'black' over the newer terms.

Well, I tried to find it, but I couldn't. All I know is that I remember hearing on the news that politicians were talking about making it so that people had to refer to others in as gentle a way as possible, and using "African-American" was one of the new terms (but maybe it wasn't). Sorry if that's not accurate, but the point remains that it's still an artificial and cosmetic solution to the lack of unity among black people. For example, exactly how has the black community become any more aware of their ethnic identity, or asserted any more ancestral or group pride as a direct result of referring to themselves as "African-American?" Show me some evidence, and like I said, I'll consider changing my position.

Also, black people aren't the same everywhere. Why would they try to group all of them together into one general group in order to create unity? I doubt that a black person in the suburbs of New York City is going to be grouped in the same way as a black person living in South Central L.A., or a black person living in rural Kansas as human beings. Saying that they think the same way and have the same hopes and desires in life just because they both happen to be black is just plain stupid. My point is they were wrong in thinking that they could create unity by changing the way that they're referred to when the status quo was accurate (at least as far as "white" is), and includes all black people, not just ones from America. The name is inaccurate and its introduction seems to me to have been pointless, even though the intentions were good. Here is what I mean by being inaccurate:

Recent black immigrants from Africa and the islands of the Caribbean are sometimes classified as African Americans. However, these groups, especially first- and second-generation immigrants, often have cultural practices, histories, and languages that are distinct from those of African Americans born in the United States. For example, Caribbean natives may speak French, British English, or Spanish as their first language. Emigrants from Africa may speak a European language other than English or any of a number of African languages as their first language. Caribbean and African immigrants often have little knowledge or experience of the distinctive history of race relations in the United States. Thus, Caribbean and African immigrants may or may not choose to call themselves African American.

Also, Dr. Williams said,

Today, it has become fashionable to refer to me as an African-American. I protest. One reason is that I risk being confused with an American of Egyptian or Afrikaner ancestry since both can legitimately be called African-Americans.

If they just want to refer to black America as "African-American" to further subdivide themselves, then it's still not as accurate as "black American." So I'm missing the point as to why anyone would say that black people should be referred to as "African-American." I will grant that the tie-in with politicians seems flimsy at best without my being able to provide any evidence of my own, but I could have sworn that that was its origin (which is why I'm holding on to "flimsy").

I think that the situation with "Indian" is quite a bit different. It wasn't some forced change on the language, but a misunderstanding of location that caused this misnomer, as far as I know. Confusion is then created when we say "Indian," because is it someone from India or someone from a native tribe of America (Canadian tribes also get included in this, if I'm not mistaken)? Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?

 

[antantrevolution]

Labelling things or people is not necessarily bad. People fit in certain categories, so what. It would be better to educate the world that people are not necessarily less worth than you just because they are different (belong to another category).

You know Bossel, I was going to make a historical reference you wouldn't be too happy with to address the last part of your paragraph, but I think it'd be in bad taste. So I will say this.

Having too many labels IS a bad thing because it dilutes the true meaning of who we are as induviduals. Why does a black person feel they need to be called African American to feel more tied into their roots? Wouldn't being black, American and being proud of those things be enough? Hell, I think that black people should be proud that those before them had to endure so much in order to get to where they are today. We don't need fancy name changes to feel better about ourselves, we need to be happy with ourselves to do that.

Anyway, I am done with this thread.

Peace.

Ant

 

[Elizabeth]

Hispanic & Jews can be of all races, actually. I think, Hispanic in the US mostly just means from South- or Meso-America. Judaism is just a religion, anyway (mostly Caucasoid members, but not only).

But it's sometimes really interesting how this all gets confused (esp. in the US, though it may happen everywhere). I suspect that Elizabeth fell prey to that confusion.

No, I was speaking more from a sociological angle, although we do have the "non-Hispanic white" ethnic category on many official forms (such as the Census), obviously Hispanics are black, white, Indian and various mixtures.

If they just want to refer to black America as "African-American" to further subdivide themselves, then it's still not as accurate as "black American." So I'm missing the point as to why anyone would say that black people should be referred to as "African-American." I will grant that the tie-in with politicians seems flimsy at best without my being able to provide any evidence of my own, but I could have sworn that that was its origin (which is why I'm holding on to "flimsy").

I dare say "African American" would not continue to be used so widely by politicians, blacks themselves or anyone else if it were even slightly offensive. When speaking of the group as a whole I personally try to use whatever seems most current at the time, which now seems to be black.

 

[Elizabeth]

Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?

Wouldn't immigrants be Indian Americans ?

 

[bossel]

You know Bossel, I was going to make a historical reference you wouldn't be too happy with to address the last part of your paragraph, but I think it'd be in bad taste.

I don't think, you could make me unhappy with any historical reference. I study history, I've seen it all.

Having too many labels IS a bad thing because it dilutes the true meaning of who we are as induviduals.

Nope. The true meaning of who we are is in ourselves. If people use labels others gave them for identity building then either something's wrong with their psyche or with their education.

Wouldn't being black, American and being proud of those things be enough?

1st you criticize labelling, now you say people should even be proud of some of those labels. :?
Why should people be proud for just belonging to some category? They should better be proud of their individual achievements rather than on some blurry collective identity.

 

[Glenn]

Wouldn't immigrants be Indian Americans ?

I suppose so. Well, I'm not sure what the term is, but I think that both are ambiguous if there're both going to have "Indian" in them. But you're probably right about that.

Why should people be proud for just belonging to some category? They should better be proud of their individual achievements rather than on some blurry collective identity.

That is pretty much the point in what I was saying about using "African-American" in the first place.

 

[antantrevolution]

Hey, not to break off the subject... but does anyone want cake? I'm gonna go get some cake.

Ant

 

[bossel]

That is pretty much the point in what I was saying about using "African-American" in the first place.

Yeah, I know, but since I agree I cannot really argue with you.


Just for the sake of argument (well, not really, I'm genuinely interested):

Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?

Isn't Amerindian a nice compromise?
Native American is not really an exact term either, or is it?
First, is it only for those living in the US or all of America (IE the continent)?
2nd, native means something like "born in" or "originating from". Since most people in the US have been born there, they all are natives.
Wouldn't it then be more logical to call the aboriginals (being the first or earliest known of its kind present in a region) as such: American Aboriginals or Aboriginal Americans?

Amerindians may not be aboriginal everywhere on that continent, but since possible older populations either died out or have been assimilated long ago, that wouldn't be much of a problem. I would still prefer the term Amerindian, though (sounds better & is shorter).

No, I was speaking more from a sociological angle, although we do have the "non-Hispanic white" ethnic category on many official forms (such as the Census), obviously Hispanics are black, white, Indian and various mixtures.

Just another thing which I forgot yesterday.
If you spoke from a "sociological angle" does that mean that even black Hispanics or Jews could not use the same racist expressions that other blacks could?

 

[sabro]

Hispanics- socio-political land mine- Mexican, Latino, Latin American, Chicano, Mestizo? Hispanic is a vague term relating to having a Spanish last name and an origen in a Latin American country (Excluding Carribean Islands). It may mean European and indigeneous American blood..

I used to be half oriental and half occidental, then I became Asian/European. I could be Yellow/White, or Anglo-Japanese.

My wife is Creole-Mexican. She was never Black-Chicano by choice. She could be kinda French-Afro-Native American-European or Black-Franco-Mestizo.

So this makes our two boys...American.

I love it when people tell me we should go back where we came from. It means we get to travel.

 

[Winter]

Hispanics- socio-political land mine- Mexican, Latino, Latin American, Chicano, Mestizo? Hispanic is a vague term relating to having a Spanish last name and an origen in a Latin American country (Excluding Carribean Islands). It may mean European and indigeneous American blood..

I used to be half oriental and half occidental, then I became Asian/European. I could be Yellow/White, or Anglo-Japanese.

My wife is Creole-Mexican. She was never Black-Chicano by choice. She could be kinda French-Afro-Native American-European or Black-Franco-Mestizo.

So this makes our two boys...American.

I love it when people tell me we should go back where we came from. It means we get to travel.

I like to call myself Chexican *Chinese Mexicano*. But that leaves out the other thousands of ethnicities roaming in my tainted, and impure blood.


On another note, I great remark in your final sentance.

 

[sabro]

Lets hear it for the Mongrelized blood in this forum.

Tiger Woods was calling himself Caublanasian as a reference to his mixed background. Everyone wanted to claim him as their own. Now that he married some Amazonian Swedish model- are their children going to be...?

Halle Berry's mom is white, but she is often referred to as the first African American Best Actress winner.

Keanu Reeves, Lou Diamond Phillips, Vin Diesel- none fit the pure Aryan mold.

Mark Twain has a character named Roxanne in Puddin'head Wilson that is 1/16 black- and yet still a slave. She has a son on the same day her mistress dies giving birth. He is being raised along with his half brother- both blonde and blue eyed- with the difference in status and future apparent in every in every aspect of their existence. (I won't ruin the ending...)