Question First page of old text

[Fearabhata]

So I made the effort to dive into ancient literature or "kokugaku" so to speak.
I am confronted with quite a few kanji which is not used nowadays (I guess?)

世上之諸士之批利、諸士之邪正、推量、風説等て、只目分之後学被覚居候を、噺の侭書付候は、他見之末てハ意恨、悪事にも可成候間、堅火中可仕由、返す返す御申候他。

That kanji which looks kinda like えis これ。
邪正 means evil&righteousness? I know just another word, which is ぜんとあく（善悪）。
Not quite sure about the ハ used here, it confuses me.

Well, if you would translate it as a whole, what would it be? Is the deepl version correct?

Iam not quite sure

 

[Uncle Frank]

Lightened & enlarged a bit.

 

[Fearabhata]

I just say as it is: my camera sucks xD

 

[Uncle Frank]

Does your user name come from her song?

 

[Majestic]

The ハ is は, and is the topic marker for the sentence. The whole thing will not be translatable by DeepL, because DeepL doesn't recognize it as classical Japanese, and tries to make sense of it as if it were modern day Japanese, which it isn't.
So you have to parse it word for word, examining the words and the syntax based on a knowledge of classical Japanese.

We can plug it into a search engine and find out it comes from the preface to Hagakure, and then we can search for a modern translation, and then translate that into serviceable English. But to do this for the whole book would be very demanding. Just the few opening lines:


世上之諸士之批利、諸士之邪正
There are various criticisms against the current state of affairs in the world, and there are both good and bad in gentlemen of today...

 

[Toritoribe]

Sorry for nitpicking, but speaking strictly, what you are reading is classical Japanese, as Majestic-san mentioned. "Ancient literature" usually refers to the ones in Heian or older era such like 源氏物語 or 枕草子. (Old or Early Middle Japanese is more commonly used for this meaning, though.)

The first thing you should do is not to fully trust the result of OCR, and check if it's correct or not by yourself. This is one of the reasons why your sentence doesn't make sense even for people who can understand classical Japanese.

Here's correction of misreadings.

世上之諸士之批判、諸士之邪正、推量、風説等ニて、只自分之後学ニ被覚居候を、噺の侭ニ書付候得は、他見之末ニてハ意恨、悪事にも可成候間、堅火中可仕由、返す返す御申候也。
(*ニ is a particle に, as same as ハ＝は.)

Classical Japanese in Edo period, i.e., Early Modern Japanese is easier to understand than Old or Early Middle Japanese, but either way, you at least need to know classical Japanese grammar to interpret it, which is different from modern Japanese.

 

[Fearabhata]

Thanks
Fortunately on the later pages, it is more modern japanese with は and に、and much more hiragana.

View attachment 101187 View attachment 101188 Does your user name come from her song?

It means "Man on the boat" in scottish gaelic, and is a famous song. since I like fishing, I used it. And yeah, to some degree I learned irish/scottish for a few years.

 

[Toritoribe]

Another correction. The beginning of the sentence is 世上之批判, not 世上之諸士之批判.

So I made the effort to dive into ancient literature or "kokugaku" so to speak.

Sorry for nitpicking again, but you seem to misunderstand the word "kokugaku". 国学 refers to a genre of study, not literature.

Kokugaku - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That kanji which looks kinda like えis これ。

之 indeed can be read これ, but it's the possession particle の there, as the furigana shows.

邪正 means evil&righteousness?

Yes, but the meaning is more likely "bad and good deed" there.

I know just another word, which is ぜんとあく（善悪）。

The reading of 善悪 is ぜんあく, not ぜんとあく. Unlike 善と悪, i.e. 善 and 悪, 善悪 can mean 善か悪（か）.
e.g.
善悪併せ持つ　＝　善と悪
事の善悪を判断する　＝　善か悪か

Fortunately on the later pages, it is more modern japanese with は and に、and much more hiragana.

Well, it's not matter whether there are many kanji or not. (Okurigana are put for hard-to-read kanji in the book in the first place.) In fact, there is no difference regarding difficulty of interpretation between the original text in your book and the following version .

世上の批判、諸士の邪正、推量、風俗等にて、ただ自分の後学に覚え居られ候を、噺のままに書き付け候えば、他見の末にては意恨、悪事にもなるべく候間、かたく火中仕るべき由、返す返すも御申し候なり。

As I already wrote, you need to know classical Japanese grammar to understand the original version of Hagakure.

 

[Fearabhata]

Depends how you learn I guess.. for me, I always imagine what I want to say, so I just translated and built up my vocabulary, also a lot from songs.
Now I have to actually learn the kanji..still do not have a system how to learn, so I just read books. Also have Kanji Study as an app, and with Gboard, I can eventualy find what I am looking for.

recently, I kinda feel discouraged to talk with people, because I often use expressions which native Japanese do not use. Vice versa, when I learn only from books and learn kanji, more often than enough, I always forget how to pronounce them, especially the onyomi reading since I did not bother about katakana at all (I always associated it with loan words and I didnt want any of it). It took me a lot of time to stop using "kihou sama" this and "kijo" 貴女that. (Still quite not sure how comes they say "anata".. there is kanji only, so it supposed to be onyomi).

As for jlpt, I only learn grammar, because it mostly covers up business language, which I have no need of.
My vocabulary mostly covers concepts of life, nature, philosophical approaches, death&buddhism. Yet I cannot form simple sentences like "brush teeth" or "put on a pijama", which is a bother in "daily" conversations, so I make sure to "kikigaki" (聞き書き) down as much as I can.
I just feel like a nuisance, smartass and out of place sometimes.

 

[Majestic]

there is kanji only, so it supposed to be onyomi

This is incorrect. Kanji have multiple ways of being read, including "special readings", "name readings", or combinations of onyomi and kunyomi (or kunyomi and onyomi). "Anata" (貴方, 貴女, 彼方, etc..) is an example of a special reading, but there are a ton of unorthodox readings.

There are many roads to Japanese fluency. Pick the one that works best for you, but make sure that it is, in fact, working. The problem with taking an unorthodox approach (like deciphering classic texts) is that you end up picking up bits of Japanese/kanji trivia, but don't actually learn how to speak or read the language. I know this because I've been there myself. And as you pick up bits of trivia, you can regurgitate that trivia to your Japanese friends and they will be astonished and will give you positive feedback for learning such esoteric things - so you can convince yourself you are making progress. But that admiration is a false friend. It is flattery. Nice, but not helpful.

JLPTN1 is definitely not business Japanese. It is high-school level Japanese - which is not to denigrate it. If you can speak Japanese as well as a Japanese high-schooler you are doing extremely well. Also, I wouldn't conflate "business Japanese" with some impractical, commercial application of the language that has no use in real life. Business level Japanese to me means speaking in a way in which your colleagues, clients, and anyone you come into contact with, can feel comfortable with you in multiple situations: sitting down for lunch, giving/accepting criticism, working through difficult situations, understanding nuance/humor and other verbal signals.

Anyway, studying Hagakure in English translation and comparing with modern Japanese may well be fun and useful and fulfilling. But studying it from the classical Japanese (which itself borrows heavily from Chinese - or classical Chinese as studied in Japan), sounds to me like a super inefficient way to reach a practical understanding of basic Japanese. People don't speak that way nowadays, and they don't use kanji in the same way. So this may be why you feel out-of-place. If I tried to learn English by studying the King James version of the Bible, but I really didn't know the grammar and was just picking up interesting words here and there, the people around me would be surprised and amused by my efforts, but they wouldn't be too keen on speaking with me. I might impress them by knowing unusual words or grammar, but it doesn't help me understand my friends (or them to understand me). Also, when you get stuck, your Japanese friends aren't going to be keen on helping you, because Hagakure in the original Japanese is a difficult book for modern Japanese to read and comprehend unless they have instruction/training in reading classic language. If someone needs help with a passage from Chaucer in the original Middle English, I'm not going to be much help. And the difference really is that big, even though Hagakure is only something like 200 years old. The language wasn't standardized until Meiji, so pre-Meiji texts are going to be rough-going for modern Japanese people.

My recommendation would be to set Hagakure aside for a while, and pick up workbooks or texts aimed at Japanese kindergartners, or elementary school kids, and see how far you get with those. Or, apportion your study time to something like 80-90% on texts aimed at young learners, and the remaining 10% on Hagakure, if you like. I've been studying Japanese for decades, and I still can't make sense out of Hagakure in its original Japanese.

 

[Majestic]

OR... I almost forgot... you can follow @JapaneseLily here on this site, who makes regular posts about basic points of Japanese grammar and usage. I think her posts may be very helpful for you.

 

[Toritoribe]

Well, please read what Chris-san wrote in a thread yesterday. I totally agree with him.

I should note that pretty much regardless of what other resources you use, you'll almost certainly need to also use a textbook or one of the grammar sites that is basically an online textbook. If you really don't get on with textbook learning you can get away with skipping the vast majority of exercises, and just browse through the lessons, but you'll need to get the fundamentals of grammar from somewhere.

Japanese language learning app

Hello My name is Kamil. I would like to learn Japanese. I am looking for app or online games where I could learn Japanese. I am looking for app or online games where there is a strong impact on graphic learning. I mean, I would like to learn Japanese words in a ,,graphic'' way. I am looking for...

jref.com

I remember there was a member who tried to learn Japanese by translating song lyrics in this forum. She said she had learned English or other languages by that method so far. Here's one of her threads.

Translating a japanese song thread.

Hi guys (or better to say Toritoribe :joyful: ), since I'm not letting go till I've translated this very special to me japanese song I've decided to create this thread where I would post various questions instead of spamming the whole forum with numerous threads. So here it comes. 1...

jref.com

I said to her that she needed to use textbook to learn Japanese grammar. Please see what she said after using a textbook Genki.

An invitation to throw up?

Hello there, I know it's a horribly cheesy sentence, but it's the grammar behind that I'm interested in. Here it goes: その娘の耳が穢れるような戯言を吐かないてもらおうか I am particularly interested in the 吐かないてもらおう part. It probably means something like "could you not vomit/retch such nonsense which soil that girl's...

jref.com

Also, there was another member who tried to learn Japanese by translating a game. He said this after he learned Japanese from a textbook.

Learning Japanese through Translation

Q1.: Even "originally" for 「もともと」because I would've thought that the past would be used in combination with 「もともと」. I'd probably go with "inherently" in this sentence. もともと　占いなど 当たらなくて　当たり前なのだ。 もし　もしもだ… "Originally my predictions and the like were wrong and then right. If that's the case..." But...

jref.com

Anyway, I don't think classical Japanese books fit to your purpose.

Now I have to actually learn the kanji

You need to learn the language first. Kanji is just a component of Japanese writing system. I think it's better to learn kanji along with learning grammar and vocabulary.

It took me a lot of time to stop using "kihou sama" this and "kijo" 貴女that. (Still quite not sure how comes they say "anata"..

It's called 熟字訓. Please refer to the following explanation in Wikipedia.

Kanji - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

there is kanji only, so it supposed to be onyomi

Your understanding is not correct. There are many kun'yomi kanji compound words in Japanese.
e.g.
母親：ははおや (not ぼしん)
口元：くちもと (not こうげん)
手袋：てぶくろ (not しゅたい)
指先：ゆびさき (not しせん)
夕方：ゆうがた (not せきほう)

EDIT;
Ooops! Majestic-san beats me!

 

[Fearabhata]

I am relieved, there is actually modern translation (現代語訳）next to the original.
There are 3 volumes of this book. I guess it will take me like 10 years to go through all this xD

OR... I almost forgot... you can follow @JapaneseLily here on this site, who makes regular posts about basic points of Japanese grammar and usage. I think her posts may be very helpful for you.

Hard to miss her, I am a silent follower
Alas, I extracted many links from this site like Home Page - Japanese for the Western Brain

Also, there was another member who tried to learn Japanese by translating a game.

I am personaly a fan of Game Gengo from youtube, helped me through N5 and N4 Grammar series. Also got Anki material from Persona via discord, focused on the characters Igor and Margaret because they use a lot of keigo. I got even some catchprases from it: Futatabi ome ni kakarimasu toki made, gokigenyō.
It certainly guarantees a jaunty goodbye ^^
Now then, I should submerge now into learning stuff. Thanks again

 

[Fearabhata]

御家来としては国学可心懸事也。
Go-ke-rai to shite wa kokugoku[...]koto nari. (gokerai? I know only gokenin)
How would one intepret/translate this?
The 3 kanji between 国学 and 事 are neither compound words, nor do they make as standalone any sense to me.
That one compound I know from 一所懸命. 可 can mean all kinda stuff, but most probably べき..
sooo.... "As a retainer one should put effort into national studies?"
What would be the japanese reading?
Also I feel that a particle gone missing. (I tripple checked, I did not err into writing it down)
御の家来　ratainer of a family

 

[Majestic]

See if any of this helps you come up with a suitable English translation.

御家来 is fine. 御 in this case (and in most cases) is an honorific. In English we would render this as "the honorable retainers". Or, we used to render things this way. Nowadays it might sound slightly old fashioned, but the intent is to show respect/honor to the retainers. This is probably the only word in the passage that a modern Japanese person would instantly understand.

国学 in this case means the history of the fief/province of the clan that wrote Hagakure. I think its the Nabeshima clan. 国 normally means country, but in pre-modern era it means the fief (or the "han") respective of the person doing the writing or speaking.

心懸 = 心掛け = 心がけ = こころがけ. There is a high chance a college graduate would understand this word, although the one in red is more common nowadays.

事也 = ことなり

可 = yes, in this case it means べき

You are tripping over basic things that could be avoided with study materials more appropriate to your level. And words like 国学 are very specific to the context of the writing, so in another context 国学 might mean something else. So this will be a very difficult text to get through. But I'll stick with you a while because it is good Japanese practice for me.

 

[Fearabhata]

御家来 is fine. 御 in this case (and in most cases) is an honorific. In English we would render this as "the honorable retainers". Or, we used to render things this way. Nowadays it might sound slightly old fashioned, but the intent is to show respect/honor to the retainers. This is probably the only word in the passage that a modern Japanese person would instantly understand.

With that being said, the rest of the 10+ pages now make absolutely sense to me. It is kind of a honorific like おandご, just as simple as that.
Thanks. I think I need a guide on how to read this book in the first place, right xD
Well, guess I will open now my N3 grammar book to "relax" a bit

 

[Majestic]

It is kind of a honorific like おandご

Well, its not "kind of". In fact it literally is お or ご. In the case of 御家来 is "gokerai", but for other words it can be pronounced as お.

Actually, it can also be read as み、おん、ぎょ、and probably some other ways as well. It depends on the noun it modifies.

Anyway, you have an idea for an English translation of that sentence?

 

[Fearabhata]

Well, since I assume the author is not so conceived to use sonkeigo on himself, it kinda seems like a preface, as it changes the whole meaning what I stated apriori:
These are the analects of the retainers from the Nabeshima clan/way of thinking of the Nabeshima clan.

just a wild guess...what follows is:

今時国学目落に相成候.

I still try to figure out what the role of 候 is. Reading further, I think as a whole it says:
"Until nowadays, these teachings conveyed through one another."

御先祖様方の御苦労,御慈悲を以, 御長久の事を本落申為二候.

 

[Majestic]

Hmmm. You're missing the intent

An honorable retainer should devote himself to the study of the Nabeshima clan.

Is what I think it means.

The retainers are the topic of the sentence (indicated by the は, right?). The verb is "kokorogakeru" (put one's heart into - in other words, to devote oneself to). べき is should/must, right? And the object is 国学 (let's just call this "study of the clan").

 

[Fearabhata]

候　seems to stand for "to be"　である、sometimes as a -masu stem? In the sense of "to be [at the mercy of]"... I guess it is a retainer spoken style.
Definately seems to be flexible piece of kanji, so no wonder it is so often used.
に候　→　にである　にある　??

 

[Majestic]

候 is just あり or おり. Or it can function as the ending of a sentence in kanbun. It has nothing to do with retainer or lord.

今時国学目落に相成候.

I still try to figure out what the role of 候 is. Reading further, I think as a whole it says:
"Until nowadays, these teachings conveyed through one another."

This is way off. You haven't got what 目落 is, or 相成, which is the essence of the sentence.

Really, its time to put Hagakure away, and start really studying Japanese.

 

[Toritoribe]

御家来としては国学可心懸事也。

御家来としては国学心懸くべき事なり。
ごけらいとしてはこくがくこころがくべきことなり。

心懸く is the classical form of the verb 心がける. Since the classical auxiliary verb べし is attached to the predicative form (終止形) of a verb, it's read like this.

べし is still used in modern written Japanese, and it's read こころがけるべし, as Majestic-san wrote.

The 3 kanji between 国学 and 事 are neither compound words, nor do they make as standalone any sense to me.

It's the word order as 漢文, i.e., Classical Chinese. Thus, the order is "auxiliary verb --> verb", not "verb --> auxiliary verb (心懸くべき)". 漢文 was used in formal documents, like Latin in Europe. Educated people could read and write these sentences in that era.

Well, since I assume the author is not so conceived to use sonkeigo on himself, it kinda seems like a preface, as it changes the whole meaning what I stated apriori:
These are the analects of the retainers from the Nabeshima clan/way of thinking of the Nabeshima clan.

Your initial interpretation "As a retainer one should put effort into ~" is correct, as Majestic-san wrote. 御家来 is a 丁寧語 to the retainers, not the author himself.

今時国学目落に相成候

今時国学目落としに相成り候。
いまどきこくがくめおとしにあいなりそうろう。

今時 means "nowadays", not "until nowadays".

目落とし is the noun form of 目落とす, meaning "being ignored/neglected" here.

相成り is the -masu stem(連用形) of 相成る, which is a polite form of なる "to become". Since 候 is attached to 連用形 of a verb, it's read like this.

候　seems to stand for "to be"　である、sometimes as a -masu stem?

候 can be attached to nouns, adjectives and verbs, so it's both です and ます in modern Japanese. Note it's about the function, thus, it's not completely the same as です/ます.

In the sense of "to be [at the mercy of]"... I guess it is a retainer spoken style.

Your interpretation is not correct. It's the author's です/ます (respect to the readers).

に候　→　にである　にある

にである is different form にある. They are completely different.

御先祖様方の御苦労,御慈悲を以, 御長久の事を本落申為二候

御先祖様方の御苦労、御慈悲を以て、御長久の事を本づけ申すために候。
ごせんぞさまがたのごくろう、おじひをもって、ごちょうきゅうのことをもとづけもうすためにそうろう。

本 is usually written as 基 in this meaning.

本落 is not a common wording.

Note that you need to interpret the whole sentence. In other words, it's impossible to understand your quotation correctly without the beginning of the sentence 大意は御家の根元を落着け、, especially the topic of the sentence 大意は. (Furthermore, even this complete sentence doesn't make much sense without the context.)


I agree with Majestic-san. I don't think it's useful for you to become to be able to read such like 国学可心懸事, not only for learning modern Japanese, but also for learning Classical Japanese. It's at least not an effective way of learning. For example, how about the reading of 不可立入芝生? It's hard to read correctly even after knowing 可心懸, isn't it?

 

[Fearabhata]

I am afraid to be lost once again.

ケ様之義

It is a part of

今時の衆、ケ様之義ハ唱矢ひ, 余所之佛を尊候事、我等ハー円落付不申候.

Can someone explain this piece of sentence?

I am aware that ケ translates pretty much to 々、which would make sense as "hitobito", as seen in the modern translation:

今時の人々は、このような根本をすっかり忘れて,よその仏を尊ぶが, そのようなことは私にはまったく承服できない。

However, 衆 allready pretty much states that it is a lot of people because
今時の衆
means something like "nowadays buncha guys" or not?
What does ケ do?

I am not even sure that one can call it a modern translation, because it seems to completely alter the message or not?
I take it that the author laments the people nowadays do not respect the old ways. In the passage before, he praises the great deeds of the ancestors.

 

[Majestic]

I am aware that ケ translates pretty much to 々

Not in this case. In this case it is a compound word with ケ様. Actually I don't think there is any case where 々 means the same thing as ケ.

かようの意味・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

かようとは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。週の第3日。月曜の次の日。火曜日。 - goo国語辞書は30万5千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

Second-to-the last entry (斯様=ケ様).

The modern translation seems pretty good to me.

 

[Toritoribe]

I am aware that ケ translates pretty much to 々

As Majestic-san wrote, ケ様 is 斯様. This is because ケ(or ヶ) is used as か, as in 一ケ月.

which would make sense as "hitobito", as seen in the modern translation

You shouldn't miss "、" between 衆 and ケ. A comma is never put inside of a compound word. Actually, ケ様之 corresponds to このような in the modern translation.

衆 allready pretty much states that it is a lot of people

衆 just means "people" there, not "many people".

しゅう【衆】 の解説
３ ある集団を形づくる人々。しゅ。「若い―」「近在の―」

衆（しゅう）の意味・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

衆（しゅう）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［名］１ 多くの人。大ぜいの人。衆人。「―に先んずる」２ 人数の多いこと。集団。「―を頼んで事を起こす」⇔寡 (か) 。３ ある集団を形づくる人々。しゅ。「若い―」「近在の―」４ 「所 (ところ) の衆」の略。［接尾］人を表す名詞に付いて、複数の人を尊敬や親愛の意を込めて言い表す。古くは単数の人にも用いた。しゅ。「旦那―」「観客―」 - goo国語辞書は30万5千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

I am not even sure that one can call it a modern translation, because it seems to completely alter the message or not?

I'm not going to insult you, but it's simply because your interpretation of the original classical text is wrong.

I take it that the author laments the people nowadays do not respect the old ways.

The sentence doesn't say such thing. Sorry to inform this, but it seems that you don't understand ケ様之義ハ唱矢ひ, 余所之佛を尊候.


You shouldn't guess the meaning of words based on your own interpretation without evidence or without checking if your understanding is correct. ケ is completely different from 々. 今時 is never used as 今時まで, as same as "nowadays" and "until nowadays" are totally different in English. You would be able to get these things easily just by using dictionaries, for example.