Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die

pipokun,
I am well aware that SOFA status and my PR status (not visa) are totally different. I find it very disconcerting that a carpenter can come here with no previous time spent in Japan and have himself exempt from fingerprinting policy, while people who have lived here for years (like me) are routinely scanned as potential criminals/terrorists or harbingers of contagion. That may not sound like discrimination to you, but it sure does to me.

I paid my dues here, as have many other people, by living here peacefully and legally. Now, they say I'm a potential threat to the government and health of the nation!!?? Bullfeathers!

They are trying to mimic the USA's policy, but there is a huge difference: Japan has never EVER had foreign terrorists attack it. In fact, if you have read any of this thread, you'd know who HAS terrorized Japan, yet they do not get printed and photographed.

pipokun wrote:

This is what the human-right conscious country does.
It is quite simple.

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Japan is not a human rights conscious country. If it was, it would have enacted laws to protect people against discrimination. It has not. Hypocrites in the government!

pipokun said:

This is what the human-right conscious country does.
It is quite simple.

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When the Japanese government ratifies the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, I might consider it more conscious of human rights. See:

http://www.crnjapan.com/

Glenski, I don't know why you love the SOFA carpenters, but if they lose their jobs here, they cannot stay here. At least, they've got to find a sponsor who kindly offers their job. Even if they find a generous guy, their long and long permanent resident visa procedure starts from the scratch.
Enlighten me if the SOFA guys have another privilege which gives them the easier procedure, if any...

HelloKyoto, just irrelevant. But if you are really conscious of the human right issue, hear the voices of the non-American women who are labeled as a intolerant kidnappers as well.

Back to the topic
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Greencard3.gif
United States Permanent Resident Card

pipokun said:

Glenski, I don't know why you love the SOFA carpenters, but if they lose their jobs here, they cannot stay here.

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When did I say otherwise?

At least, they've got to find a sponsor who kindly offers their job.

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So does anyone else here on a work visa, with one special exception, but that has nothing to do with fingerprinting policy, so I fail to understand why you bring this up.

Enlighten me if the SOFA guys have another privilege which gives them the easier procedure, if any...

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Their "easier" situation is related only to the exemption they get from the fingerprinting policy, or haven't you been reading what I write?

OK, Glenski, I get back to the topic.
Why do you think it is a discriminatory policy?

It is true that they and you have the same US civilians with the US passport and work here, but they come here under the SOFA scheme. It is totally different from your.

Non-American staffs working in UN or diplomats working in the US are exempted from the fingerprinting policy there, but international students or expats are required it. This is because of different visa status.

*snip
Allow me just a quick question for you loving a carpenter.
About 5,000 civilian employees from the US and more than 20,000 Japanese get jobs on base. Do you know how many US carpenters come to Japan under the SOFA scheme now?
I try to find the data, but my poor English skill prevents me from searching it.
So far, I came to know that blue collar jobs or unskilled works (working in a fast food restaurants) on base are mainly for Japanese. And the Japanese government pays their salary through the Omoiyari budget.

caster51 said:

again,as for this matter ,The illegal immigration, the traveler, and the permanent resident are the same when seeing from the Japanese because they dont have a Jaspanese passport

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And that is the solution? What about special permanent residency status?(Zainichi) They are foriegners, so why don't they have to give finger prints? (as stated before)

Your argument is ridiculus Caster, eg, I could get a Japanese passport ,but then I would have to give up my citizenship in my country of birth. But yet if I live in my country of birth I am allowed to have dual citizenship of Japanese and that country, which I might add is now pretty much the norm these days. So you say "get a Japanese passport" so easily when YOU as a Japanese if going to live in another country decide to get that particular countries passport do not have to give up your Japanese passport. So when the government takes policies like that they are, they are exploiting these facts when requireing permanet residents to have to give fingerprints, while they give other permenant residents exemption. Kind of a double standard don't you think?

pipokun said:

OK, Glenski, I get back to the topic.
Why do you think it is a discriminatory policy?

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On the 7 pages that this thread has stretched (so far), I have given my answer. Please reread it.

Allow me just a quick question for you loving a carpenter.
About 5,000 civilian employees from the US and more than 20,000 Japanese get jobs on base. Do you know how many US carpenters come to Japan under the SOFA scheme now?

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I chose the occupation "carpenter" to illustrate a point that would be clear to anyone. Civilian employees and contractors number about 5,500 under SOFA status. Their occupations vary. See the following link for examples of jobs.
USAJOBS - The Federal Government's official employment site

What is your point?

FrustratedDave said:

when YOU as a Japanese if going to live in another country decide to get that particular countries passport do not have to give up your Japanese passport.

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You got that totally wrong. Japanese DO have to give up their passport. In the eyes of the Japanese government if you are not willing to give up your citizenship to all other countries you DO NOT meet the qualifications to become a Japanese citizen. So to say you meet all criteria--except certain criteria that you don't like--is the same as saying you do not meet the criteria to become neutralized.

_________

I was also thinking today on the issue of distinguishing and discriminating as brought up before and I believe that there is some validity to it.

Distinguishing particular groups by excluding them from certain requirements, such as fingerprinting, has the POTENTIAL to become a type of reverse discrimination. However, nobody could rightly say that Japan discriminates against permanent residents. That isn't the case.

The Japanese government is saying that all foreigners, which such residents technically are, are required to undergo a fingerprint scan. That technicality is crucial when determining if you are being discriminated against or not. My future wife may meet all of the criteria to work in America simply by being my wife, but she will not be allowed to work until she actually does everything required. The fact is, you are a foreigner, despite your permanent resident visa. Japan has made no attempts to hide that technicality from anyone.

Then they move on to distinguish a few particular groups of foreigners from that policy. It is not a discrimination against permanent residents, but a distinguishing of particular groups.

So the real argument is that these permanent residents feel as if they are just as deserving of being distinguished as those other individuals, despite being a foreigner.

1) Do you, who are not willing to follow the Japanese governments requirements for naturalization truly deserve to be distinguished equally in regards to security clearance as a Japanese citizen?

2) Do you deserve to be equally distinguished in regards to fingerprinting as those who are part of a visa category that has been created specifically to address the issue that a large number of individuals were taken against their will, had their lives stripped away from them, given Japanese citizenship, and then had IT stripped away from them at no fault of their own? Not all individuals who fit under that visa category can be described as such, but it seems to me that Japan is making its best effort to amend those wrongs.


3) Do you deserve to be equally distinguished with individuals who are coming to Japan under the authority and request of their own government, which has signed treaties with Japan to give them the right to bring those employees in?



Some people, such as me, say no to all three, and thus say you are not being treated unjustly. Others might answer yes to one or more of those, which would then lead you to believe they are being treated unfairly.

Regardless, I believe everyone involved in the discussion has had and equality and jusitce at the heart of their posts, which is encouraging to see, despite having come to different conclusions on the matter.

This discussion is retarded.

Host countries have the right to impose whatever controls they wish to foreigners. If you don't like it, leave.

Sadly, I somewhat have to agree with hideaway.

I'll agree, the Japanese government is discriminating against foreigners, imposing unfair double standards such as finger printing for non-japanese only.

This is how I see it. If they are going to be making double standards and purposely making it less than comfortable for foreigners to live in their country then maybe you SHOULD leave. If they don't want foreigners (educated or otherwise) than the foreigners should just go and leave Japan to it's own. Of course they'd be screwing themselves over but, hey, you make your bed, you lay in it.

I can tell you one thing. Most people I know wouldn't be willing to live in a country that treats them like second class citizens.

happilyengaged said:

You got that totally wrong. Japanese DO have to give up their passport. In the eyes of the Japanese government if you are not willing to give up your citizenship to all other countries you DO NOT meet the qualifications to become a Japanese citizen. So to say you meet all criteria--except certain criteria that you don't like--is the same as saying you do not meet the criteria to become neutralized.

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Quoting the law, you have a legal responsibility to notify the Japanese government if you obtain another citizenship, however they don't go chasing their citizens if they don't. So technically the don't ask don't tell method reprotedly works fine until you try to get a goverment job.

happilyengaged said:

1) Do you, who are not willing to follow the Japanese governments requirements for naturalization truly deserve to be distinguished equally in regards to security clearance as a Japanese citizen?
2) Do you deserve to be equally distinguished in regards to fingerprinting as those who are part of a visa category that has been created specifically to address the issue that a large number of individuals were taken against their will, had their lives stripped away from them, given Japanese citizenship, and then had IT stripped away from them at no fault of their own? Not all individuals who fit under that visa category can be described as such, but it seems to me that Japan is making its best effort to amend those wrongs.
3) Do you deserve to be equally distinguished with individuals who are coming to Japan under the authority and request of their own government, which has signed treaties with Japan to give them the right to bring those employees in?
Some people, such as me, say no to all three, and thus say you are not being treated unjustly. Others might answer yes to one or more of those, which would then lead you to believe they are being treated unfairly.
Regardless, I believe everyone involved in the discussion has had and equality and jusitce at the heart of their posts, which is encouraging to see, despite having come to different conclusions on the matter.

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Are you here just for the argument? Because reason and common sense certainly dose not aply to you. Now I am going over the same stuff already discussed but America, who has had countless more terrorist attacks on its soil by foriegners than Japan still regards its FORIEGN RESIDENTS
as residents of America and does not require fingerprints. And with your other comments about the Zainichi , they all have the option to become citizens any time if they want to, but not all permanent residents can become citizens due to a number reasons all of which take time be cleared. So in the mean time do these "permanent residents" just have to suck it up and be treated like they are?

hideway said:

This discussion is retarded.

Host countries have the right to impose whatever controls they wish to foreigners. If you don't like it, leave.

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Ha,Ha,Ha... Some people don't have that option. But I doubt you thought of that, actually I am supprised you can think at all with an IQ that high... opps my mistake that is your age under you location.

FrustratedDave said:

Ha,Ha,Ha... Some people don't have that option. But I doubt you thought of that, actually I am supprised you can think at all with an IQ that high... opps my mistake that is your age under you location.

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Funny.

hideway said:

Funny.

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About as funny as you.

Glenski said:

On the 7 pages that this thread has stretched (so far), I have given my answer. Please reread it.
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Ok, then tell me why the difference between you and the SOFA people is a discriminatory.
They have a different status from yours, no matter what sort of jobs they/you have here.

And as a permanent resident, you have freedom to get any jobs off-base and can live wherever you want in Japan, but they don't.
What do you describe their inconvenience? Is it what you call a discrimination?

Pffft, me thinks that you lot read too much into this. The whole fingerprinting scheme is an attempt to look as if Japan is doing something 'positive' in the "Fight Against Terror". It is all a huge PR exercise.

Although I was specifically informed of the fingerprinting process on the plane prior to landing at Narita, as well as multiple posters/monitors along the way to immigration displaying more information as to the fingerprinting process and requirement, I was never actually photographed or fingerprinted the 4 times I entered Japan as a layover tourist in the last 2 years.

Questions asked have already been answered.
Insipid remarks about "love it or leave it" (isn't that a Bush-ism?) are equally irrelevant.

Nothing new has been added to this thread in ages.

Moderators! Check, please! Can we lock this thread?

Glenski said:

Questions asked have already been answered.
Insipid remarks about "love it or leave it" (isn't that a Bush-ism?) are equally irrelevant.
Nothing new has been added to this thread in ages.
...

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It is simply because you did not answer my question.
I totally agree with FrustratedDave and you about the special permanent resident status, but your contention about the SOFA people with official resident status might be just your frustration. I do not think it is a discrimination at all.

Glenski said:

Insipid remarks about "love it or leave it" (isn't that a Bush-ism?)...

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That pre-dates Bush by around 35-40 years.

ArmandV said:

That pre-dates Bush by around 35-40 years.

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Most people on this thread are probably not even that old, and besides, the current Bush is infamous for such a statement, so I thought it was appropriate.

pipokun said:

It is simply because you did not answer my question.
I totally agree with FrustratedDave and you about the special permanent resident status, but your contention about the SOFA people with official resident status might be just your frustration. I do not think it is a discrimination at all.

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Fine, you think like that, and I'll think like I do.

I contend that it is an unequal, unfair practice, though. Military and diplomats may have certain different perceived "rights" because of their status, but that's where I draw the line. Civilian employees being exempt while all other people with valid visas or PR are not exempt. Is this so hard to grasp?

Please close this thread. There is nothing further to be gained, IMO.

Glenski said:

Most people on this thread are probably not even that old, and besides, the current Bush is infamous for such a statement, so I thought it was appropriate.

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You're probably thinking of the "either you're with us or against us" statement. That was said before we went into Afghanistan.

Glenski said:

Questions asked have already been answered..
Moderators! Check, please! Can we lock this thread?

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Oh Lord,the spirit I cried,I will be no longer going !!
(Goethe/ sorcerers apprentice)

FrustratedDave said:

Are you here just for the argument?

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The thread does say not to let the issue die.

happilyengaged said:

The thread does say not to let the issue die.

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The thread was started as spam to promote sales of protest T.shirts !
The starter vanished after placing the bone !
See: samuraicanuck.tripod.com

happilyengaged said:

The thread does say not to let the issue die.

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I suppose it is good that you are living in the States, due to the simple fact that you don't have to go through this proccess "EVERY" time you come to your home. I didn't think many people would be able to grasp the inconvenience this places on a Japanese/foreign family when having to go through this proccess and not to mention the lack of ability for Japan to aknowledge its permenat residents as residents of Japan.