Doubts On Islam

[Red5]

I can give you an answer on veils. They are not Islamic and have never been. I once heard a muslim scholar talking about them on radio 4, plus what I have also read on them. They were originally from the Byzantium Empire and were worn by women of a high social status. Muslim women took this idea and used it themselves to denote themselves as muslims (I think it started with one of Mohammads wives). In other words it was still used as a status symbol.

Mycernius, it's not important what is the origin of the veil. when Islam came, it was sequences for a lot events. when someone says "how do they invent the mobile phone" . we can't imagine that when someone was alone, he had event and that event made him to invent that. mobile phone was sequences for a lot of inventions and tries. there was pigeons, then two glasses with thread, then landlines and finally the mobile phone. NOW, when we talk about Islam, there are a lot of sequences before him . Islam didn't bring new things, it brought a lot of things that it's mentioned before like worship the God and lot of things like veil .

I think Muslim is cancer.

if you can provide us why do you think like that, maybe I'll say " you're right "

 

[Hezam]

Sorry for misunderstanding the Qoute about Aisha,She is not Aisha bit Abu Bakr,She is Aisha Bint Talha,I recieved reply from that website :

Hezam,

I'm sure that the confusion about this information comes from a misunderstanding. In my essay I was referring NOT to the Prophet's wife, Aishah Bint Abu Bakr, but to Aishah's niece AISHA BINT TALHA. In fact, the quote on my website says, ﾂ"When the SON of a prominent companion of the Prophet asked his wife Aisha bint Talha to veil her face....etcﾂ" I will change the wording so that I can make this clearer since I see that some groups are not using my reference correctly by attributing it to the Prophet's wife, Aishah!

For your information, Aisha bint Talha's dates are unrecorded, but she was the grand daughter of Abu Talha, companion of the Prophet. A number of sources describe her as being indeed beautiful, also known for her scholarly knowledge and outright manner. Chronicles mention her refusal to obey anyone, She married three times, but despite pressure from one of these husbands, Musab, she refused to wear the veil. Even though high-ranking women were generally expected to do so, the custom was not yet absolutely required.

I got the quote from ﾂ"Woman in Islam,ﾂ" by Wiebke Walther (page 78) which is ascribed to Abu a-Farag al-Isfahani (897-966), Abu Farg (or Faraj) was an Arab born in Persia but who studied in Baghdad and was a direct descendant of the last of the Umayyad Caliphs. He is known for his collection of poems and songs from the oldest epoch of Arabic literature down to the 9th century, and for his knowledge of the customs of the early Arabs, and is considered a valuable authority for early Islamic days.

The quote is also mentioned in ﾂ"The Veil: A Darkness at Noon.ﾂ" by Leslie Farmer in Saudi Aramco World: 1971, ﾂ"The Arab Woman: A Traditional View.ﾂ" And ﾂ"The Scimitar and the Veil: Extraordinary women of Islamﾂ" by Jennifer Heath, and another book by Heath, ﾂ"The Veil: Women Writers on its History, Lore, and Politics.ﾂ" On page 297 she quotes Aisha Bint Talha as saying, ﾂ"God has honored me with beauty. I want people to understand what rank I stand before them. I will not veil myself. None can reproach me with a fault.ﾂ"

There is no reason why this story would be in the Sharia. Equally, there is no reason to state that it is not true that Aisha bint Talha refused to veil, and that in the first century, Muslim women were more relaxed about their dress.

Lyn Reese
Women in World History Curriculum

I read about Aisha and the story was true.

 

[Mycernius]

I got the same email. Wrong Aisha.

 

[Hezam]

I will be careful next time >_<

 

[Red5]

I will be careful next time >_<

I received it and there is wrong Aisha too

 

[Haruspex]

Mycernius, it's not important what is the origin of the veil. when Islam came, it was sequences for a lot events. when someone says "how do they invent the mobile phone" . we can't imagine that when someone was alone, he had event and that event made him to invent that. mobile phone was sequences for a lot of inventions and tries. there was pigeons, then two glasses with thread, then landlines and finally the mobile phone. NOW, when we talk about Islam, there are a lot of sequences before him . Islam didn't bring new things, it brought a lot of things that it's mentioned before like worship the God and lot of things like veil .

That doesn't appear to be very consistent with the fact that Islam is a revealed religion.

 

[Red5]

That doesn't appear to be very consistent with the fact that Islam is a revealed religion.

the big problem when you speak about something you ignore it . some one like Mycernius,he knows about all religions and he knows the right or the other ways to follow.

unfortunately, according to modern life, the veil becomes for tease guy (most of girls ) ,

see this 1

see this 2

 

[Haruspex]

the big problem when you speak about something you ignore it . some one like Mycernius,he knows about all religions and he knows the right or the other ways to follow.

unfortunately, according to modern life, the veil becomes for tease guy (most of girls ) ,

see this 1

see this 2

I repeat: Islam is a revealed religion. Something is either wrong or it isn't. If you admit that failure to wear the veil is not wrong, then you're wasting time and effort in pursuit of trying to preserve the veil. If wearing the veil is wrong, generations of Muslims, prior to the reception of the veil, have lead debauched lives of sin. In a revealed religion trial and error is not really given much space, provided of course that the followers in question are diligent in abiding by religious rules. In my view this is a can't have your cake and eat it situation.

To reiterate what I've said in short: If Allah (through whoever) says the veil is cool, it is the manifestation of awesome. If, however, Allah says it isn't cool, it becomes a sin to wear it. Unless, of course, if you are willing to put aside the whole Allah abrakadabra and talk about history and anthropology rather than religion.

As for the 'unfortunately' part. Why is that a problem? Women, like men, are coded to reproduce. If the veil facilitates reproduction, the veil is cool from their unconscious, biological perspective. You can't really provide a profane argument against the libidinous nature of the veil and those who wear it.

 

[Hezam]

The Title should be "Veil in Islam" or "Doubts on Veil" or something belong to the veil not to Islam !
Nichiren ,You disappeard buddy ! can you fix it now ?

 

[bakaKanadajin]

don't call me ignorant for saying this, but I find women using these veils ugly. I think there's a reason why muslim women are generally ugly.

How could we not call you ignorant for saying this?


I don't care if people wear turbans or hats or crosses around their neck or super long underwear (mormons) or whatever... BUT, I don't like it when the right to wear this stuff supercedes common sense. For example women wanting to wear the veil in the drivers license photo... ?!?? The photo is used for identification purposes you HAVE to show your face, but some women and Islamic clerics would fight for the right to be fully veiled in the photo, which is stupidity.

Same with Sieks, I mean a turban is fine but you cannot possibly expect people to permit you to carry your curved dagger onto an airplane or into a highly secure building or something, regardless of whether it's your religion or not.

 

[Nichiren]

Nichiren, weren't you the guy trying to convert everyone to Souka Gakkai all the time or something close to it?

lol...not even so... Soka Gakkai respect and support the freedom of beliefs and expressions and everyone has the right leave or stay their membership. in fact, i am enjoying reading the responses here...I joined soka gakkai(lay nichiren buddhist group) here in philippines....

 

[Nichiren]

Ichio wrote:

1.Does Islam(as an ideology taught by Muhammad) can there be religious freedom within the constituents as one of the fundamental tenets of Human rights?[/I][/COLOR]
1. Is this your question (what you are interested to know) or you are writing your doubts? Any prejudice might impede your fact finding.

Yes, i am talking about the freedom of beliefs or faith within indoctrinized Islamic culture/community like the apostasy... People cannot be forced to accept true faith. They cannot be persuaded to accept what they do not understand, or what they do not like. That is politics, not religion. True faith will only flourish under democracy and total freedom. After careful thoughts and repeated differentiation, the spirit and value of a true faith will truly shine...Thus, i question if Islam is a religion or political/social ideology akin to communism?

Moreover, u said below....

2. Well, Islam as an IDEOLOGY claims this is a complete way of life. That is, teaching of Islam covers all the aspects (religious, political, social, economical, cultural, personal.....) of life........When Muhammad(pbh) and his immediate disciples ruled Arab, it was ideal. When Muslims ruled Europe, it paved the way for renaissance (you can Google - Moors in Spain, Cordoba or Andalusia etc.). On the other hand, there are numerous bad acts perpetrated by Muslims. So, how to brand Islam, or Judaism or Communism or Capitalism (especially Noe-Liberalism)?

We'll,it goes down to the ideology and personality of Muhammad, the founder of Islamic faith. Is he founding a religious movement or political/social movemet? Was he like confucious who taught social philosophy like embedded in the Chinese life or a political warrior who started a social arab movement? i want a direct answer not from any links...


Are we discussing serious issues in light mood in light places?

i guess so... but i had still many doubts about Muhammad and its Islamic ideology..that's why i brought this topic to light it up...

 

[Emoni]

lol...not even so... Soka Gakkai respect and support the freedom of beliefs and expressions and everyone has the right leave or stay their membership. in fact, i am enjoying reading the responses here...I joined soka gakkai(lay nichiren buddhist group) here in philippines....

Is Buddhism in Japan dying out?

When you post propaganda threads like this using hyperbole regarding Buddhist religions to promote your own faith, naturally I'm going to become quite leery when you start a thread pointing out contradictions in another religious and then are absent for most of the discussion.

Hence the paranoia.

Anyway, have fun.

(Note: Whoever is deleting my posts for no reason with no explanation, cut it out)

 

[Haruspex]

Ichio wrote:

1.Does Islam(as an ideology taught by Muhammad) can there be religious freedom within the constituents as one of the fundamental tenets of Human rights?[/I][/COLOR]
1. Is this your question (what you are interested to know) or you are writing your doubts? Any prejudice might impede your fact finding.

Yes, i am talking about the freedom of beliefs or faith within indoctrinized Islamic culture/community like the apostasy... People cannot be forced to accept true faith. They cannot be persuaded to accept what they do not understand, or what they do not like. That is politics, not religion. True faith will only flourish under democracy and total freedom. After careful thoughts and repeated differentiation, the spirit and value of a true faith will truly shine...Thus, i question if Islam is a religion or political/social ideology akin to communism?

Total bollocks. Look at Scandinavia. They have democracy and great freedom and liberal society. Does 'faith' (the term 'true faith' is meaningless, faith either exists or it does not, if you want to refer to some sort of weird definition of faith you may have, unlike the ordinary meaning, you need to prove its existence, because otherwise this discussion will proceed on the basis that the ordinary meaning of faith is employed) flourish in their society? Hardly. Islam is an ideology as much as Buddhism is an ideology. They both are and when they enter the realm of politics, they are to be regarded as political ideologies, else they would not have political implications.

2. Well, Islam as an IDEOLOGY claims this is a complete way of life. That is, teaching of Islam covers all the aspects (religious, political, social, economical, cultural, personal.....) of life........When Muhammad(pbh) and his immediate disciples ruled Arab, it was ideal. When Muslims ruled Europe, it paved the way for renaissance (you can Google - Moors in Spain, Cordoba or Andalusia etc.). On the other hand, there are numerous bad acts perpetrated by Muslims. So, how to brand Islam, or Judaism or Communism or Capitalism (especially Noe-Liberalism)?

We'll,it goes down to the ideology and personality of Muhammad, the founder of Islamic faith. Is he founding a religious movement or political/social movemet? Was he like confucious who taught social philosophy like embedded in the Chinese life or a political warrior who started a social arab movement? i want a direct answer not from any links...

The personality of Muhammad is of no relevance. He's dead and he couldn't care less and he doesn't matter. Just like Jesus never shaped Christianity beyond the prima facie nature of the deception employed to fool the masses into behaving in accord with the wishes of the leading class, Muhammad did not have any influence over how Islam developed apart from nature of the deception employed in Islam.

Are we discussing serious issues in light mood in light places?

i guess so... but i had still many doubts about Muhammad and its Islamic ideology..that's why i brought this topic to light it up...

I too have doubts about Islam. I find that it is a pointless, reality denying heap on nonsense, akin to any other belief system or philosophy not grounded in science. Included is (not exhaustive): Buddhism.

 

[Haruspex]

(Note: Whoever is deleting my posts for no reason with no explanation, cut it out)

Yeah, I clearly remember there being a post to the extent that "Weren't you the guy who wanted to convert everyone to Soka Gakkai?" And then it disappeared.

 

[Hezam]

How could we not call you ignorant for saying this?


I don't care if people wear turbans or hats or crosses around their neck or super long underwear (mormons) or whatever... BUT, I don't like it when the right to wear this stuff supercedes common sense. For example women wanting to wear the veil in the drivers license photo... ?!?? The photo is used for identification purposes you HAVE to show your face, but some women and Islamic clerics would fight for the right to be fully veiled in the photo, which is stupidity.

Same with Sieks, I mean a turban is fine but you cannot possibly expect people to permit you to carry your curved dagger onto an airplane or into a highly secure building or something, regardless of whether it's your religion or not.

Yes,License photo,Passport photo..etc women show their faces...
I cant imagine a woman covered her face in her passport
"Is this you ? hmm it looks like you !! What the Hell !! "
It's not illigal to show your face for security.

 

[Emoni]

It's not illigal to show your face for security.

I'm guessing there is no Islamic version of "Girls gone wild" is there...

"EEEEeeee!! I'm on tv!" *Flashes face and winks* *Cops show up and arrest her*

 

[Hezam]

You know what ? you dont have a talent !

 

[Nichiren]

Total bollocks. Look at Scandinavia. They have democracy and great freedom and liberal society. Does 'faith' (the term 'true faith' is meaningless, faith either exists or it does not, if you want to refer to some sort of weird definition of faith you may have, unlike the ordinary meaning, you need to prove its existence, because otherwise this discussion will proceed on the basis that the ordinary meaning of faith is employed) flourish in their society? Hardly. Islam is an ideology as much as Buddhism is an ideology. They both are and when they enter the realm of politics, they are to be regarded as political ideologies, else they would not have political implications.
Yes, they are ideologies. I agree. However,religious pursuit and politics are entirely different realms. When religions collides with politics it would be a great danger.My mentor SGI Presindent Ikeda said: " The welfare of people must always be the starting point and final goal of every human endeavor. As such, it is unacceptable for religion, government or any ideological system to treat people as a means to an end."
Ikeda has also described the primary mission of religion as to forge individuals who are capable of creative responses to life's challenges while leading contributive lives. These are the basic terms, from his perspective, which define the value of any religious teaching or pursuit. "There is no greater good than empowering humanity and revitalizing society," he states, but "like politics, economics and education, religion is devoid of meaning unless it contributes to this process."
As Ikeda notes: "When religion dominates and oppresses people, it becomes an instrument of authority. History is filled with examples of people, who wanted only to be happy, being deceived by clergy or other religious leaders. This is an undeniable reality. Life is equally precious and sacrosanct for all people. It is a mistake to think that priests stand above lay believers, or that the president of the Soka Gakkai is more important than the organization's membership. That would be betraying the true purpose of religion."
The Role of Religion | Daisaku Ikeda Website
The personality of Muhammad is of no relevance. He's dead and he couldn't care less and he doesn't matter. Just like Jesus never shaped Christianity beyond the prima facie nature of the deception employed to fool the masses into behaving in accord with the wishes of the leading class, Muhammad did not have any influence over how Islam developed apart from nature of the deception employed in Islam.
I believe the teachings and examples taught or laid down by the leaders/teachers reflected and shaped human socities.

 

[Haruspex]

... to forge individuals who are capable of creative responses to life's challenges while leading contributive lives.

You don't need religion for that.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

the primary mission of religion as to forge individuals who are capable of creative responses to life's challenges

This seems to me contrary to what most religions teach. It's usually more about sticking dogmatically to the rules than responding creatively.

 

[Mars Man]

Just in passing here, I have felt an emotional urge, a stimulus deep within as though of the very fringe of consciousness which sparked debate in William Jame's sometimes troubled mind, to allow a bit of escape for my thoughts at this present setting; if I may, here.

While I am pleased to see that there are, as best I can tell, more of those of the Islamic belief-system joining in here at JREF, and posting on such subjects in fairly level-headed manners, I still, after all this time, even, cannot move past the understanding that something is simply missing.

OK, then, taking simply and only the title to this thread, and NOTHING more, let's doubt Islam. Let's really cast all sorts of doubts on the belief-system at large, and see what we can come up with. The first doubt I'll cast, is that of the more reasonably demonstrable historical passage of time. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is not based on true historical accounts, but, rather, on folk-legend. For that reason, the very carpet of concept upon which the inspiration for the belief-system pins its very validity for existence, has been jerked out from under its feet as being no more of a historically valid matter than certain events from the stories of Homer.

 

[Hezam]

OK, then, taking simply and only the title to this thread, and NOTHING more, let's doubt Islam. Let's really cast all sorts of doubts on the belief-system at large, and see what we can come up with.

Agreed,Before judging anything we need to discuss these doubts without extremism,If everyone said his doubts,Disagreement,agreement...etc.
Anything we discuss from one point of view won't lead to a solution.

like Christianity and Judaism, is not based on true historical accounts,

Could you please explain what's the true historical accounts?
If you mean the Historical events witch writtin depending on Specific date then i can say that Islam hitory and events have been writtin after Omar ibn AL-Khattab created the Hijri Calendar so there were no mistakes.
Please correct me if that's not what you mean.

 

[Yukiko chan]

I'm not Muslim but I know enough about Islam to answer these questions I think (I've lived among Muslims for a long time).

1.Does Islam(as an ideology taught by Muhammad) can there be religious freedom within the constituents as one of the fundamental tenets of Human rights?

Hmm, that would depend on your situation (whether you live in an Islamic country, just passing by, or not at all):

1- If you're a non Muslim who doesn't reside in an Islamic country: there's nothing you'd fear for your freedom of belief, as far as Islam is concerned, unless a fanatic Islamic government develops a super military power and decides to practice Jihad in order to spread Islam, in which case be afraid, be very afraid!!

2- If you're a non Muslim who happened to be passing by an Islamic country: just don't show any "disrespect" to the religion and you'd be safe. "Disrespect" is a stretchable word of course, so if you eat or drink publicly in Ramadan, or you put on a religious sign/symbol of another religion (a cross for example), that may be considered as "disrespect" (people are sent to jail if they are caught eating publicly during the month of Ramadan, in some Islamic countries). Some people will try to convert you but, unless you're interested, just ignore them. Calling people to the "right path" is more a less the duty of every Muslim.

3- If you're a non Muslim who resides in an Islamic country: Here we have two cases:

a- You were recognizably non Muslim from the start: for example, you were born to recognizably non Muslim parents, and you decided, or had, to live in an Islamic country. It's quite similar to the second case, except that you'd have to pay a special tax.
b- You converted from Islam or you cannot be socially recognized as a non Muslim (if you were born to Muslim parents for instance): death penalty, unless you change your mind, and go back to Islam.

The situations I presented are theoretical of course. You could get worse or better than that on the ground, depending on regions, social casts, education, generations, etc...
But my point is clear: Islamic teachings do not recognize freedom of religion, or freedom of speech outside of its tenets.

2.Why women in Islam are forced to wear veils(to cover their head or even whole body)? In a muslim countries they are forced to but in a non-islamic country, some muslim women don't wear veils. What is the punishment if they don't abide by the islamic Laws?

The veil is a bit of a problematic issue. Some Muslim scholars consider it obligatory while others don't. But it's not forced in Islamic countries at large, rather in some fundamentalist families, while other ones may simply encourage it (or not).

3.In Islam, religion, social, politics are indivisible. Does it mean mullahs and government authorities holds the same power? I believe in the separation of religion and state because without it there is no true democracy in such a country. What is your stance between religion and a state?

Well, theoretically speaking, the governor in an Islamic country must be "the emir of believers": he's supposed to be well versed in Koran and Tradition, and lead the prayers (i.e. be an Imam). But this is mostly untrue nowadays, though, as you said, religion, social matters and politics are inseparable in Islam, which is why religion can intervene everywhere.

 

[Hezam]

It's quite similar to the second case, except that you'd have to pay a special tax.

Actually you dont have to pay anything except renewing your Visa like i do
There is no different between Muslims and Non-Muslims,I have Indian friend,He is Christian and my father who is Imam goes to him to repair his Laptop not to anyone else.
Another Indian Hindo too...It depends on the person so dont worry there are thousands european/American here live happily and safe,They Drink inside their houses and they pray too,The problem is not Islam but the people who use it for self-interest.
Like i said i my self pay for renewing my Visa to stay in Saudi Arabia so it's not about Islam.