Does Japanese Really Need Kanji?

[Mark of Zorro]

Another phenomenon that shows your argument is flawed and cannot be applied to the Japanese writing system.

Two sentences is NOT a phenomenon. Ten sentences would STILL not be a phenomenon.

Dude, you are not listening, period. First of all, you added no spaces. Second, you did not utilize katakana like I suggested.

Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is bad enough, but you cannot even bother to listen and apply my arguments, then declare they are shot?

Look, I clearly said in the beginning that more reform would be required than just using hiragana and spaces. I said that. CLEARLY. All languages that converted or introduced writing systems needed reform and adaptation. Japanese underwent MASSIVE reform to utilize kanji and the system was whacked and confusing. So they added kana, and that required MASSIVE reform and its still pretty whacked. Going all kana will require reform but it won't be as bad.

I am sure English had the same problem with bear and bare, orange and orange, etc. But adjustments were made.

 

[FrustratedDave]

So I gather you can't tell what each sentence means then? How did I guess that you would avoid the question and make excuses?

Two sentences is NOT a phenomenon. Ten sentences would STILL not be a phenomenon.

LOL, I give you two examples and you suddenly assume that is it does not occur regularly. There could be tens to hundreds of these examples that share the exact same grammar written in hiragana if one was inclined enough to make a list, I just don't see the point in showing you more, b/c you will only dismiss them again.

phe•nom•e•non (fɪˈnɒm əˌnɒn, -nən)

n., pl. -na (-nə) or, esp. for 3, -nons.
1. a fact, occurrence, or circumstance observed or observable: the phenomena of nature.
2. something that is remarkable or extraordinary.
3. a remarkable or exceptional person; prodigy.

So yeah, I consider the fact that this does not occur in the English language and the fact that it does in Japanese grammar as being rather a remarkable thing to happen in the written language.

Dude, you are not listening, period. First of all, you added no spaces. Second, you did not utilize katakana like I suggested.
Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is bad enough, but you cannot even bother to listen and apply my arguments, then declare they are shot?

Ok, here you go, with spaces and Katakana, let me know what "THIS" particular example means for each sentence

"その キカン は セイジョウ に ウゴいている"
"その キカン は セイジョウ に ウゴいている"

So when you are ready, let me know what these sentences mean. Or perhaps you could show us how to make this sentence to show its different meanings.

Look, I clearly said in the beginning that more reform would be required than just using hiragana and spaces. I said that. CLEARLY. All languages that converted or introduced writing systems needed reform and adaptation. Japanese underwent MASSIVE reform to utilize kanji and the system was whacked and confusing. So they added kana, and that required MASSIVE reform and its still pretty whacked. Going all kana will require reform but it won't be as bad.
I am sure English had the same problem with bear and bare, orange and orange, etc. But adjustments were made.

So now you are suggesting the fact that you will need to remember 96 characters, both Hiragana and Katagana to effectively interpret you proposed Japanese writing system?


Further more,

Please explain to me how you intend differentiate the different meanings on a homograph.

These Kanji below all can be pronounced as こうしょう or 'koushou' in romaji. How are you going differentiate all those words with just Kana? And just to be clear for you Mark Of Zorro, there are literally hundreds of the homograph type words in the Japanese language, I have have just presented one.

And show me an English word where there are this many? In most instances there is usually only two to three different meanings.

【交床】
【交渉】
【交睫】
【交鈔】
【厚相】
【厚賞】
【公傷】
【公娼】
【公相】
【公称】
【公証】
【咬傷】
【口承】
【口誦】
【哄笑】
【好尚】
【工匠】
【工商】
【工廠】
【巧匠】
【巧笑】
【康正】
【康尚】
【後章】
【後証】
【校章】
【洪鐘】
【甲匠】
【紅晶】
【綱掌】
【翺翔】
【考証】
【行省】
【行粧】
【行障】
【行賞】
【鉱床】
【講頌】
【講誦】
【降将】
【高声】
【高姓】
【高尚】
【高承】
【高昌】
【高商】
【高唱】
【高蹤】
【黄鐘】

So again , I will wait for your answer to my above question.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Could you back off and stop digging in to me? This topic is not an emotional one, or at least should not be. I could see your blatant rudeness if this was about death and war or rape or something, but the question is merely the necessity, or lack of, of kanji. So calm down.

No, off the fly, I don't know what the sentences mean. I don't have a dictionary handy right now. Not embarrassed about it, I just don't want hear your silliness for the fact. I am sure I could stump you with something I dug up as well. God only knows where you got your examples, how much time you took to understand them, and how much more time its going to take you to come up with even 5 more.

You offered an example. But its not proof it happens so often, and its not proof it cannot be fixed.

And if it did happen in such great numbers is OBVIOUS that verbal communication in Japanese would NOT work. Can't you see that?

"その キカン は セイジョウ に ウゴいている"
"その キカン は セイジョウ に ウゴいている"

You just are not LISTENING! What I am suggesting might look like this, with the different meanings represented by different kana like we use alternate spelling sin English.

その キカン は せいじょう に うごいている.

その きかん は セイジョウ に うごいている.

I will have to look up all the meanings of koushou, but, again, given the two kanas and accent marks and the fact that no doubt many of those are so uncommon even typical Japanese don't know them, with a little REFORM I am sure it can be fixed, just as everything leading to this stage was REFORM that fixed it all.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Find words - Denshi Jisho

Meanings of koushou: I am sure meanings like "raised floor" "11th lunar month" and "spring of yellow buds" can be done without. I am sure that several have synonyms just as useful and more commonly used anyway. Like "shining" there is "kouyou" and "hikatteiru". For "taste, fancy, fashion" I bet people say "shumi" more often anyway.

I bet if I pointed to a raised floor most people would not say "koushou". If I said "Kono yuka wo agaru" they would not say "koushou". Fact is there are more kanji words than were ever needed or used by most Japanese anyway.

And then there is context. If people could not understand in conversation, its all pretty useless anyway. If they could not understand it in converstation, its just as well it falls by the way side.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Could you back off and stop digging in to me? This topic is not an emotional one, or at least should not be. I could see your blatant rudeness if this was about death and war or rape or something, but the question is merely the necessity, or lack of, of kanji. So calm down.

Rudeness, LOL.

No, off the fly, I don't know what the sentences mean. I don't have a dictionary handy right now. Not embarrassed about it, I just don't want hear your silliness for the fact. I am sure I could stump you with something I dug up as well. God only knows where you got your examples, how much time you took to understand them, and how much more time its going to take you to come up with even 5 more.

Good luck figuring them out even if you did have a dictionary, there so different meaning to each of those pertinent words in the sentence.
Well it took me all of about 60 secs to choose a few words and make up two sentences with the same grammar in hiragana, but not have the same meaning.

You offered an example. But its not proof it happens so often, and its not proof it cannot be fixed..

You know why you are saying it is not proof? It is b/c it is obvious you know very little about the Japanese written language. I could do a few more examples for you, but again you would just avoid the glaringly obvious and change the subject as you usually do. The fact is that , when using only hiragana you can have examples of exact same "WHOLE" sentences written grammatically exactly the same with different meanings. Now if you throw in to that equation the fact that some words can have up to 49 different meanings with the exact same kana, it is obvious that kana and spaces like you suggest will just not be able to work. It is obvious that Kanji is needed to differentiate what each of those 49 words actually mean. B/c in the context of a sentence it would be impossible to know exactly which word the author was referring to.

And if it did happen in such great numbers is OBVIOUS that verbal communication in Japanese would NOT work. Can't you see that?

This is where intonations, context and the way the word is spoken comes into play, something that cannot be done in written form. And don't for a minute think that mis-communications dose not happen in conversation due to using a certain word used where the listener assumes the speaker to be referring to another word. That is part of the reason as to why this language is so hard, b/c intonations and context does not always mean the intended meaning will be put across. This is why many instances people need to clarify what someone is trying to put across in meaningful conversations. Something you obviously have still yet to learn. Nothing is exact and nothing is perfect and to make things simpler (yes Simpler) Kanji is used in the written language to avoid such mistakes. Something which you are still to ignorant or unwilling to accept.

You just are not LISTENING! What I am suggesting might look like this, with the different meanings represented by different kana like we use alternate spelling sin English.
その キカン は せいじょう に うごいている.
その きかん は セイジョウ に うごいている.

OK, so lets take "きかん", you have shown two different ways to show it, what are you going to do for the other 18 words that are written as "きかん", how are you going to know which of those 18 words I have put into that sentence?. You see, you can't even grasp the depth of the language, you are assuming that there are only two ways to write "きかん" when there are in fact 18 or more if you put in non Joyo kanji.

I will have to look up all the meanings of koushou, but, again, given the two kanas and accent marks and the fact that no doubt many of those are so uncommon even typical Japanese don't know them, with a little REFORM I am sure it can be fixed, just as everything leading to this stage was REFORM that fixed it all.

And how do you propose to write a word like "koushou" which has 49 different kanji meanings? There certainly are lots of words in the English language that are in the dictionary that are not used, but that does not mean they are not needed. The fact remains to make written Japanese simpler, Kanji is needed. Period.

 

[undrentide]

There are too many きかん and they are pronounced in the same way (pitch) so the accent mark does not help.

(Even when the words are pronounced with different pitch, they can be different in region - what can we do with that?
Like 橋 hashi/bridge and 箸 hashi/chopsticks. In Kanto area people say it hashi (LH*) and hashi (HL*) but in Kansai they do not use the same pitch.) (*H means high and L means low here.)

器官、期間、機関、既刊、基幹、帰還、気管、奇観、旗艦、季刊、貴官、貴簡、亀鑑、帰館、帰艦...
Same goes with せいじょう:
正常、政情、清浄、性情、性状、星状、聖上、星城、成城、製畳...

From the context I can narrow them down a little：
機関 or 気管, or less likely but 期間 is also possible.
Most likely 正常 but 清浄 and 星状 are also possible in a very special situation.

It's ridiculous if you believe writing it in kana like その キカン は せいじょう に うごいている. or その きかん は セイジョウ に うごいている. make the meaning of words clear. It does not make much difference from そのきかんはせいじょうにうごいている。 The only thing I can think of is that people who are not familiar with the language can recognise each word (where it starts and where it ends) in the sentence because of the spacing, but again, it does not help you to understand the meaning of the words at all.

When everything is written in kana, you have to think more than twice to understand what is written, and spacing and accent mark do not really help. When written with kanji, it is very easy to grasp what's written just at a glance.
Why do we need to change the language into something more inconvenient and difficult?

東京電力福島第１原子力発電所から高濃度の放射性物質を含む汚染水が漏れている問題で、政府は３日、約470億円の国費を投じ政府主導で解決する方針を固めた。国の全額負担で原子炉建屋への地下水の流入を遮断する凍土壁を設置するほか、汚染水を浄化する装置も増設する。東京電力主体の従来の対策よりも前倒しで事態を解決できるようにする。
福島原発、汚染水対策に470億円 政府が基本方針 ：日本経済新聞

This is from an article released this morning (Nikkei.com).
Even without reading the whole text, it is easy for me to see that it is about About Nuclear plant in Fukushima, radioactive materials, goveernment is taking care of it, blocking the underground water with a kind of wall made of frozen soil, etd. "at a glance", because kanji is ideogram. I say "at a glance" and it is not a joke or exaggeration for native (and maybe fluent) speakers. Of course, to understand it fully and correctly, I need to read the whole sentence.

Another advantage of using kanji is that if you know the kanji, it is easy to guess the meaning of the words even when the words are rarely used or something completely new to you.
The word 凍土壁 is completely new, but because it is written in kanji, I can guess that it is a kind of wall (壁), made of soil (土) that is frozen (凍). Some explanation is given in the article (凍土壁は建屋のまわりの土を冷却剤の循環により凍らせて地下水の浸透を防ぐ設備) but before reading that part, I can understand what it is talking about and what the government is planning to do.

If the article is written in kana without kanji, I'll be clueless, because the sound とうどへき does not make any sense.

In a nutshell, kanji is an essential part of Japanese language, and without using kanji, our daily life will be extremely difficult.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

, it is obvious that kana and spaces like you suggest will just not be able to work.

What part of reform do you not understand?

It's ridiculous if you believe writing it in kana like その キカン は せいじょう に うごいている. or その きかん は セイジョウ に うごいている. make the meaning of words clear. It does not make much difference from そのきかんはせいじょうにうごいている。

What part of reform do you not understand?

If some meanings are designated to be in hiragana and some in katakana, you get the same effect as there and their.

Its called REFORM people. REFORM. Never denied it was necessary. Japan has had it before and will have it again. Every language has had it.

What part of REFORM do you two have trouble understanding?

And how do you propose to write a word like "koushou" which has 49 different kanji meanings?

How many of the 49 are plain old superflous kanji, made up with kanji for no better reason than to use some kanji, like "raised floor" could be "agata yuta"? How many are so obscure they are basically never used?

REFORM has eliminated kanji before. Why? Cause they were crap.

Kanji is needed. Period.

And before kana was introduced people like you said "Kanji ONLY is needed. Period." Progress and REFORM have their enemies every step of the way. In fact, with some people you say REFORM and it goes in one ear and right out the other!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Japanese script reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The current system, which so many of you seem to advocate, has a lot to do with losing WWII and having foreigners make some decisions. You people realize that?

Even kanji has been changed for certain words to get what we have today, which is simply a better mess than the previous one.

注文 used to be 註文. Madness.

The list of extra problems because of kanji is as long as my arm. Printing costs and problems. Need of extra books. Needing a committee to make decisions on reform. Infighting over the reforms. Requirement of software updates when reforms happen. Inability to type the language directly. leading even Japanese to adopt a foreign writing system to just to type their own language on a computer. The government telling you how you can and cannot write your name.

Its madness.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Did you even read anything undrentide wrote?

What part of reform do you not understand?
What part of reform do you not understand?
If some meanings are designated to be in hiragana and some in katakana, you get the same effect as there and their.

That is the point, it is the direct opposite to what you are suggesting. As undrentide pointed out to you, viewing the kana by itself makes it very difficult understand, where as with Kanji, at a glance without even reading the whole sentence you can get an idea on what the topic is about. Why can you not understand this fact? Kanji is in fact simpler than just plain Kana in any form, spaces or no spaces.

What part of REFORM do you two have trouble understanding?
How many of the 49 are plain old superflous kanji, made up with kanji for no better reason than to use some kanji, like "raised floor" could be "agata yuta"? How many are so obscure they are basically never used?
REFORM has eliminated kanji before. Why? Cause they were crap.
And before kana was introduced people like you said "Kanji ONLY is needed. Period." Progress and REFORM have their enemies every step of the way. In fact, with some people you say REFORM and it goes in one ear and right out the other!

Simplifying Kanji has its merits, but the fact remains that Kanji is needed in written Japanese and no matter what you say or suggest, most of the Japanese population thinks this way. And it is not b/c of the reasons you keep saying, but b/c it easier to read with accurate understanding of what the author is trying to convey.

I honestly don't know how you can have an opinion on this when you obviously don't have the slightest clue as to why Kanji is so important. And even after all that has been tediously spelled out for you, you are failing to recognize why you are wrong.

The written language has been reformed several times over the last century, mainly to streamline everyday Kanji (Joyo), but Kanji is a vital part of the written language.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Did you even read anything undrentide wrote?

Not much no. You guys have gotten me to the point that I scan for parts that prove people are not listening. Sick of repeating myself. Getting sick of this whole conversation for it. Damn sick of the entire internet where I start from a position of reading carefully while others ignore the half of what I wrote.

When I say reform is needed, its essential to the whole argument. You two come back with "But kana and spaces alone won't work!" I freaking know! That is why I talked about REFORM.

Tell you what, when one of you when admits that you royally screwed up by ignoring that essential element. I will talk with that one more. Until then, adios.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Not much no. You guys have gotten me to the point that I scan for parts that prove people are not listening. Sick of repeating myself. Getting sick of this whole conversation for it. Damn sick of the entire internet where I start from a position of reading carefully while others ignore the half of what I wrote.

When I say reform is needed, its essential to the whole argument. You two come back with "But kana and spaces alone won't work!" I freaking know! That is why I talked about REFORM.

Tell you what, when one of you when admits that you royally screwed up by ignoring that essential element. I will talk with that one more. Until then, adios.

Well, when that comes from a Japanese native who was born here, went to school here and now is a functional adult in society, you might want to pay attention a little more. And she did explain very thoroughly why your suggestion won't work. But, as usual you choose to only read what suits you.

If you are even unwilling to listen to what a native says, you are more deluded than I thought.

As with anything else, you don't have the ability to reason and see logic.

You know what they say, "Don't argue with an idiot, they will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

 

[Mark of Zorro]

When they were first developed, hiragana were not accepted by everyone. The educated or elites preferred to use only the kanji system. Historically, in Japan, the regular script (kaisho) form of the characters was used by men and called otokode (男手?), "men's writing", while the cursive script (sōsho) form of the kanji was used by women. Hence hiragana first gained popularity among women, who were generally not allowed access to the same levels of education as men. And thus hiragana was first widely used among court women in the writing of personal communications and literature.[4] From this comes the alternative name of onnade (女手?) "women's writing".[5] For example, The Tale of Genji and other early novels by female authors used hiragana extensively or exclusively.

Hiragana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fascinating how what was done 1000 years ago is impossible today.

But I just choose what suits me, and functional, literate people of 1000 years ago don't count.

Other advocates of kanji reform include the following:

Kamo no Mabuchi, Kokuikō (国意考?)

Critical of the number of kanji, and argued that kana was more convenient because they were phonetic characters like the alphabet. Notes that a French dictionary was written using only 50 characters, and that Dutch uses only 25 characters.

Motoori Norinaga, Tamakatsuma (玉勝間?)
Fukuzawa Yukichi, Moji no Oshie (文字之教?, lit. "The teaching of characters") (1873)
Maejima Hisoka, Kanji Gohaishi no Gi (漢字御廃止之儀?, lit. "The argument for the abolition of kanji") (1866)
Nishi Amane, Yōji o motte kokugo o shosuru no ron (洋字ヲ以テ国語ヲ書スルノ論?, lit. "Argument for writing Japanese in western script") (advocating the use of rōmaji)
Suematsu Kenchō, Nihon Bunshōron (日本文章論?, lit. "Japanese syntax") (1886)
Ueda Kazutoshi
Mori Arinori, Nihon no Kyōiku (日本の教育?, lit. "Japanese education") (Advocating the use of English)
Nanbu Yoshikazu (Advocated the use of rōmaji)
Baba Tatsuo, Nihongo Bunten (日本語文典?, lit. "Japanese grammar")

People of the 19th and 20th centuries don't count.

And the members of kanamojikai probably don't count either. カナモジカイ

 

[FrustratedDave]

Hiragana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fascinating how what was done 1000 years ago is impossible today.
But I just choose what suits me, and functional, literate people of 1000 years ago don't count.
People of the 19th and 20th centuries don't count.
And the members of kanamojikai probably don't count either. カナモジカイ

Interesting that they "added" something to the language where as you are trying to subtract something from the language. Not to mention the fact that it also states that hiragana was used mainly by women , who in that day and age were not afforded the education of the elites. But, I as earlier stated, Japan now has a literacy rate of 99.8%. So no such prejudices occur today and you comparing modern day to 1000 years ago is rather ridiculous and again just reaching.

And all those arguments and yet still the Kanji remains, must be a reason for that, don't ya thunk?

kanamojikai, as said earlier in the thread is a minority, just like you. The majority of Japanese prefer Kanji.

 

[coolio123]

Alot of you are forgetting the name of this thread. does japanese need kanji. No it doesn't, rather the subjective thing at hand is whether or not it improves the language in general, and makes comprehension easier. In my opinion it could go either way, obviously there was a time before kanji where things we're understood. As of right now things would be harder because people are not used to not seeing kanji. Its like developing a character system for english in an attempt to "make it more efficient". Two hundred years after adopting such a system people will be arguing on forums like these saying "I can't imagine life without these characters, why change something that would make English harder", it is a completely invalid statement. So yes it would be a rather drastic idea to drop kanji all together, but is it necessary? Not a chance.

 

[undrentide]

What part of reform do you not understand?
What part of reform do you not understand?
If some meanings are designated to be in hiragana and some in katakana, you get the same effect as there and their.
Its called REFORM people. REFORM. Never denied it was necessary. Japan has had it before and will have it again. Every language has had it.
What part of REFORM do you two have trouble understanding?

I believe that the word "reform" means "improvement", not changing a form of something.
Writing Japanese without kanji makes it difficult to understand. Even if you use extra space or using both katakana and hiragana, or adding accent marks, that does not help to understand the words and sentences.
The only "advantage" I can think of such a "reform" may bring is that the language will become easier to "read out loud without understanding the meaning" for the beginner of the language, or those who are too lazy to learn kanji.
But for ordinary people who use the language on a daily basis and who have good vocabulary - not particularly intelligent people, but just ordinary people - Japanese written without kanji is simply too difficult to understand, and it will be much time consuming.

And funny you are talking about the cost - look at the same sentences written in both kanji and kana, and those in kana only. The latter becomes very long compared with the former. If all the books and papers are written without kanji, we will need a lot more papers and ink. On internet, it will take up a lot more space.

東京電力福島第１原子力発電所から高濃度の放射性物質を含む汚染水が漏れている問題で、政府は３日、約47 0億円の国費を投じ政府主導で解決する方針を固めた。国の全額負担で原子炉建屋への地下水の流入を遮断する 凍土壁を設置するほか、汚染水を浄化する装置も増設する。東京電力主体の従来の対策よりも前倒しで事態を解 決できるようにする。

とうきょうでんりょくふくしまだい1げんしりょくはつでんしょからこうのうどのほうしゃせいぶっしつをふくむおせんすいがもれているもんだいで、せいふは3か、やく470おくえんのこくひをとうじせいふしゅどうでかいけつするほうしんをかためた。くにのぜんがくふたんでげんしろたてやへのちかすいのりゅうにゅうをしゃだんするとうどへきをせっちするほか、おせんすいをじょうかするそうちもぞうせつする。とうきょうでんりょくしゅたいのじゅうらいのたいさくよりもまえだおしでじたいをかいけつできるようにする。

And before kana was introduced people like you said "Kanji ONLY is needed. Period." Progress and REFORM have their enemies every step of the way. In fact, with some people you say REFORM and it goes in one ear and right out the other!

You are missing the very important point when talking about before and after kanji (or writing system itself) was introduced to Japan. At the time kanji and writing system was brought to Japan (in the 6th century), people were speaking in Yamato kotoba - the original Japanese language. With kanji a lot of words were also imported, and since then quite a lot of words were coined, too. To not use kanji, should we abondon all those words - mostly kanji compounds - and go back to yamato kotoba? That's simply pointless.

The more I read your opinion, the more I inclined to feel that maybe you do not speak Japanese well and do not have much vocabulary, and you are not good at learning/remembering kanji, wishing there were no kanji in the language so you would not have to bother.
This is just an impression I got, I do not know if this really is the case. If you are fluent in Japanese and is able to prove why kanji is not necessary, or it is far easier than I think to understand all-kana text, maybe you can explain it in Japanese, using some good examples which are convincing enough.

 

[undrentide]

Alot of you are forgetting the name of this thread. does japanese need kanji. No it doesn't, rather the subjective thing at hand is whether or not it improves the language in general, and makes comprehension easier. In my opinion it could go either way, obviously there was a time before kanji where things we're understood. As of right now things would be harder because people are not used to not seeing kanji. Its like developing a character system for english in an attempt to "make it more efficient". Two hundred years after adopting such a system people will be arguing on forums like these saying "I can't imagine life without these characters, why change something that would make English harder", it is a completely invalid statement. So yes it would be a rather drastic idea to drop kanji all together, but is it necessary? Not a chance.

Language is a tool for communication. To convey the right message, and to understand the message correctly, they are the most important things when it comes to using a language. Kanji is necessary because of its efficiency to communicate with ease. It is not about 'not being used to writing/reading without kanji', it is a matter of practicality.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Basic facts. (sigh). Yes, I and every one to whom I linked you to were in fact using the word reform correctly all this time (facepalm)

reｷform (r-fm)
v. reｷformed, reｷformｷing, reｷforms
v.tr.
1. To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition.
2.
a. To abolish abuse or malpractice in: reform the government.
b. To put an end to (a wrong). See Synonyms at correct.
3. To cause (a person) to give up harmful or immoral practices; persuade to adopt a better way of life.
v.intr.
To change for the better.
n.
1. A change for the better; an improvement.
2. Correction of evils, abuses, or errors.
3. Action to improve social or economic conditions without radical or revolutionary change.
adj.
1. Relating to or favoring reform: a reform candidate for mayor.
2. Reform Of or relating to Reform Judaism.

Reforms can be carried out through both additions and deletions, alterations, or even put an end to something, as a means to improvement, ie changing the form. No wonder I said REFORM a million times and got no understanding.

東京電力福島第１原子力発電所から高濃度の放射性物質を含む汚染水が漏れている問題で、政府は ３日、約47 0億円の国費を投じ政府主導で解決する方針を固めた。国の全額負担で原子炉建屋への地下水の流入 を遮断する 凍土壁を設置するほか、汚染水を浄化する装置も増設する。東京電力主体の従来の対策よりも前倒 しで事態を解 決できるようにする。

とうきょうでんりょくふくしまだい1げんしりょくはつでんしょからこうのうどのほうしゃせいぶっしつをふく むおせんすいがもれているもんだいで、せいふは3か、やく470おくえんのこくひをとうじせいふしゅどうで かいけつするほうしんをかためた。くにのぜんがくふたんでげんしろたてやへのちかすいのりゅうにゅうをしゃ だんするとうどへきをせっちするほか、おせんすいをじょうかするそうちもぞうせつする。とうきょうでんりょ くしゅたいのじゅうらいのたいさくよりもまえだおしでじたいをかいけつできるようにする。

Oh brother. I am going to guess that the kanji has four times the number of strokes easy. And let's see what happens when I reduce text size.


東京電力福島第１原子力発電所から高濃度の放射性物質を含む汚染水が漏れている問題で、政府は ３日、約47 0億円の国費を投じ政府主導で解決する方針を固めた。国の全額負担で原子炉建屋への地下水の流入 を遮断する 凍土壁を設置するほか、汚染水を浄化する装置も増設する。東京電力主体の従来の対策よりも前倒 しで事態を解 決できるようにする。

とうきょうでんりょくふくしまだい1げんしりょくはつでんしょからこうのうどのほうしゃせいぶっしつをふく むおせんすいがもれているもんだいで、せいふは3か、やく470おくえんのこくひをとうじせいふしゅどうで かいけつするほうしんをかためた。くにのぜんがくふたんでげんしろたてやへのちかすいのりゅうにゅうをしゃ だんするとうどへきをせっちするほか、おせんすいをじょうかするそうちもぞうせつする。とうきょうでんりょ くしゅたいのじゅうらいのたいさくよりもまえだおしでじたいをかいけつできるようにする。

The kanji is becoming illegible while the kana is still easy enough to read. And now it occupies almost the same amount of space.

To write or type or text will take less time for the kana for anyone proficient in both methods. Obviously. If you cannot look at all facets of a thing you don't have a clue about its efficiency.

To not use kanji, should we abondon all those words - mostly kanji compounds - and go back to yamato kotoba? That's simply pointless.

The tale of genji used almost no loanwords, not that I advocate that.

Next, a lot of kanji words are not load words from Chinese but simply made-up for fun words using kanji. They are not necessary. Once again, a raised floor need not be "koushou" it can be "agata yuka" or something and for the average Japanese, probably is. Plenty of useful kanji words can be kept and written in kana. They are not all useful.


If I don't read or reply to more of your posts, consider it in retaliation. Repeating myself again, but I am sick to death of posting in detail and reading in detail only to have people ignore what they find inconvenient in response.

 

[nahadef]

Zorro, you sound like an American gun owner, attached to your argument rather than to the logic of it.

 

[undrentide]

No need to quote the definitions from a dictionary, I mentioned in my previous message that reform generally means improvement. But you cannot make people believe that what you suggest is a reform in a true sense even if you keep saying "it's reform!!!" trillion times. What you need is to show the reason it can be called reform.

What improvement your "reform" is to make, other than it gives you more free time as you do not have to learn/read/write kanji? And to make it easier to "pronounce" (i.e. read it aloud) what is written but "without understanding the meaning"?
Could you list them up? For me all the things you mentioned can be paraphrased into one single sentence "so I do not have to learn kanji".
How all-kana text makes things easier for people to understand what is written? (I'm NOT asking how you can make all-kana text easier to understand by using space and accent marks. I hope you can understand the difference.) You can list up the reasons one by one.
You should be able to give me concrete examples, as you are so sure of yourself.

Languages are communication tools, and for communication "intelligibility" should be given the first priority. My understanding of being intelligible is "can be understood without efforts".

 

[undrentide]

I am going to guess that the kanji has four times the number of strokes easy. And let's ee what happens when I reduce text size.

How many people use pen and paper to write things these days? Maybe a memo, but mostly people do type keyboards to write long texts.
And when you have difficulties to read small letters including kanji, it's about the time you have to buy glasses.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Zorro, you sound like an American gun owner, attached to your argument rather than to the logic of it.

Nonsense.There is way more logic and fact in my posts than of the opposition. For example, the only language rivaling Japanese use of pictograms plus phonetics is ancient Egyptian, long dead. American gun owners illogically never look to the experiences of the rest of the world but pretend America is so very unique that the experience of the rest of the world do not apply. In fact, its the pro-kanji people here acting like Japanese is so very unique. I admit differences sure, but both groups treat their subjects like they are in a vacuum. They are not.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How many people use pen and paper to write things these days? Maybe a memo, but mostly people do type keyboards to write long texts.
And when you have difficulties to read small letters including kanji, it's about the time you have to buy glasses.

How logical is it to predict that the fads of the last 20 years will continue forever? And let us not forget those of school age who do indeed have to write out long texts by hand.

And its not that you cannot see how making the kanji smaller made them much harder to read compared to the kana, its that you don't want to. Fact is, you can use a smaller type set for a kana book and come out about the same in number of pages, with no greater difficulty reading due to size.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

But you cannot make people believe that what you suggest is a reform in a true sense even if you keep saying "it's reform!!!" trillion times. What you need is to show the reason it can be called reform.

My links about reform include even a switch to romaji! Of course a switch to all kana is reform!

Could you list them up?

Could you read the friggen thread?

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Not much no. You guys have gotten me to the point that I scan for parts that prove people are not listening. Sick of repeating myself. Getting sick of this whole conversation for it. Damn sick of the entire internet where I start from a position of reading carefully while others ignore the half of what I wrote.

If you are not going to read and consider what other people have to say, then you ought not be advancing your own argument and insisting that you are right even when others have brought up careful explanations.

I've carefully read everything you wrote, even though it is very rude, aggressive, and repetitive and clearly shows that you are -not- reading what other people have written, even while you accuse others of not reading your words.

It's not truly that what you say is totally wrong, it's that the scale of reforming the language to make it a language that can be written without kanji is tremendous. It's not the same as going from pure kanji to mixed kana and kanji at all - the pure kanji written language was not very close to the spoken language. Mixing in kana allowed the written language to be closer to the spoken language, although even now there is still written language that is rarely spoken. These kanji compounds with dozens of homonyms, most of them with pitch accent 0 so indistinguishable by pitch, are not uncommon. And these are -totally- different words, not like 'bare' meaning 'undressed' as well as 'to reveal'. Each of these words also may have multiple -usages- that are parallel to that.

If we were to reform the language as you suggest, everything written up until now would become unreadable to later generations. The thousands upon thousands of kanji compounds that would have to stop being used in favor of newly coined words or resurrected yamato words just in order to write understandably in pure phonetics would change the language to the point of mutual incomprehensibility between pre- and post- reform speakers. It would truly be more sensible to ask the Japanese to just learn a major European language that can be written in a phonetic alphabet, but of course to ask that would be terribly offensive.

It's also a simple fact that nobody should get very emotionally involved in this debate - the Japanese are -not- going to eliminate kanji, they don't see the need for it or desire it. In fact, the character lists keep growing as people push back against the Touyou/Jouyou limits, so the number of 'official' characters is growing, not shrinking. (The number of characters -actually- in use was never limited by the lists anyway). As such, this is not in any way a meaningful social or political debate, it will affect no policy anywhere, it is purely armchair philosophizing, just a matter of thinking about all the 'what ifs' of the situation.

 

[undrentide]

The tale of genji used almost no loanwords, not that I advocate that.

The Tale of Genji was written in the 11th century. Many words changed their meanings, and there are many words we use daily which did not exist in the 11th century, and many words used in the story are not used any more. I wonder why you think taking a novel written 1,000 years ago - not 100 years ago - is a valid example to demonstrate that in today's Japanese language we do not need to use loan words and stick to the ancient language? I assume that most native speakers of English will need special dictionaries to understand The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer (written in 14th century) because the language - vocabulary, grammar - changed a lot over centuries. Then it should not be hard for you to imagine there are even more changes since The Tale of Genji.

Next, a lot of kanji words are not load words from Chinese but simply made-up for fun words using kanji. They are not necessary. Once again, a raised floor need not be "koushou" it can be "agata yuka" or something and for the average Japanese, probably is. Plenty of useful kanji words can be kept and written in kana. They are not all useful.

I have to tell you that it took me quite a long time to understand what you're talking about here.
It is now obvious you might know some very basic Japanese words and phrases but far from being fluent.
I guess you are taking 高床 as an example, but it is not pronounced こうしょう, it is read たかゆか.
And 高床 does not mean 'a raised floor', it refers to a building with a flooring on a very high columns.
あがったゆか is not read agata yuka but agatta yuka, and still, it sounds awkward and native speaker never use such an odd expression. (Sounds like a floor has a life of its own and raised itself, spontaneously.)
If you look at the list of こうしょう Dave posted, you won't find 高床 in it.

"A lot of kanji words are... simply made-up for fun words using kanji"
For example? People use words written in kanji not for fun but simply because they are useful. If you want to say there are many words that are not useful, you should show alternative words which can be written in kana only and easily understood.
Give me some examples.