Do you believe a human can be a God?

kireikoori

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Also, how common is this idea in modern Japanese religion?
In Japanese, the word is Arahitogami. Written in Kanji as 現人神.
Personally, as a Pagan/Animist/Shaman I believe that everything has spirit, but that "Gods" exist. That a God is a spiritual clump so to speak. To me a God is to the Spirit World what a star is to gravity.
And I believe it is possible for a human to possess this quality.
I'm not sure if this is still commonly believed by Shintoists, but I do know it is believed by Christians where almost all believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
 
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Hi hi, I just want to say, I found this fine thread, and will come back to it as soon as possible, OK?
See you later and be well!
 
Your usage of the word "God" appears to be inconsistent, and as is far too often the case, seemingly being used with a little less consideration for the original essence of the English word.

Then, it seems that the idea of humans becoming deity in nature upon death, rather during life, is the Buddhist thing here...and with whatever degree of influence from Shinto of old...I don't know.

Regarding Christianity, while is it correct that most sects do believe in the doctrine of Yeshua's having been YHWH incarnate, it was the Gnostic branch that held the doctrine that all humans hold a divine element.

One question: would you like to leave this here, in order to discuss what the doctrines are in Japan, or would think that by moving this to Serious Discussions, with a possibly broader discussion taking place, more purpose would be served your essential question--whether humans can be divine?
 
Your usage of the word "God" appears to be inconsistent
....?
and as is far too often the case, seemingly being used with a little less consideration for the original essence of the English word.
I am? I thought the word has more than one usage. That God could vary much more than universal creator or such.
English is Germanic language. Is the word God not appropriate to refer to Odin and Thor?

Then, it seems that the idea of humans becoming deity in nature upon death, rather during life, is the Buddhist thing here...and with whatever degree of influence from Shinto of old...I don't know.
Heh, I would have thought more common in Shinto than Buddhism.

I know the show Kamichu was Shinto based, not Buddhism based. But then again Kamichu is a cartoon and I just made myself look like a geek by using that as a reference didn't I? ._.

Bad kireikoori! No referencing pathetic otaku culture in serious legitimate discussion in Japan related forum. You're making yourself look dumb and geeky! ._.

Regarding Christianity, while is it correct that most sects do believe in the doctrine of Yeshua's having been YHWH incarnate, it was the Gnostic branch that held the doctrine that all humans hold a divine element.
Gnosticism is not mainstream Christianity...oh wait you already said most sects..
Anyway that would mean that all people are God. But couldn't some people be more God than others? Surely the Gnostics didn't hold everyone equally divine.
One question: would you like to leave this here, in order to discuss what the doctrines are in Japan, or would think that by moving this to Serious Discussions, with a possibly broader discussion taking place, more purpose would be served your essential question--whether humans can be divine?
I'm not sure. I made this thread because I was getting off topic in another. I was requested to move it to the religion section.

Perhaps the religious discussion about Japan is more suited for this section and asking questions is more suited for the serious discussion section?

If so then it's hard, because this is really a dual question. Both about Japan and the reader.

Or are you saying it would get more discussion in the serious discussion section? If so then yes please move it.
 
Well, I'm kind of at a loss too...because here in this sub-forum, we should focus on the Japanese-cultural aspect of the question you have raised. Actually, I was simply and only asking for your opinion on the matter. By demanding that the posts be on topic here, there will likely be less discussion...it that's ok. If you want more discussion it'd be better there. It's what you want...even this very post (like much of the previous one by me) is very off-topic.

Is the word God not appropriate to refer to Odin and Thor?

No, it isn't. Because both Odin and Thor are proper nouns whereas the word god is not.
 
Wait, all you did was not capitalize God.

So God implies one divine omnipotent God while god means powerful but not ultimate?

Thor may not be considered a universe creator but I don't see why that means I have to write God for him in lower case.

Ugh. This is something I dislike about the English language. God, god, whatever. I'm thinking in terms of it all. And perhaps more specifically shinto "kami" when I say God. Since I don't like throwing random words from other languages into English, I said the closest English equivalent.

I don't believe in a universal creator. I believe the universe is God. And that the universe is apart from God. But that the essence that struck the universe into being didn't remain apart because it wasn't well defined. In the idea of the universe creator "God" that's just the massive essence. It is all avatars or gods put together.

Go ahead and move the thread. You said it'll get more discussion there. That's what I want, more discussion. The topic can then focus on the beliefs of the members and the Japan aspect can come second. Hopefully it will get addressed along the way.
 
OK...thanks ! I moved it here, and think this will be better.

Well, I have spelled this out before...I'll try to find it later. Originally in English, god was a common noun, any and every god was a god--there was no capital except at the beginning of a sentence maybe. Then came the Christians with Jewish superstition altering the word to use it as though it were the name of the god described and prescribed in Jewish and Christian religious writings. Once the King James Version went out, with the power it had with that name backing it...it became like holy writ itself.

In the English language today, the usage of the word, specifically written as "God" is in fact, by misusage today, that god of the Bible. (Although, it has become to be used for a specific god for the religion in which it is used in English--a copy of the Quran, for example, will use "God" for "Allah" (although Allah is not actually a proper noun either))

My efforts are to help keep the error from being spread. The English word god, is not to be used a name. "YHWH is a god" makes sense, while "God is a god" does not. I hope you can see my concern here. I'll be back tomorrow. I hope to have a good discussion here then.

ps the books I have use 'god' when they use it in the sense of the Japanese word 'kami,' otherwise they use the name, sense the gods do have names (proper nouns).
 
It depends on what you mean by a god. Do you mean, having the power to create universes, people, and all the things around us? Or simply have supernatural powers, such as parting the Red Sea and reading people's minds? I tend to frown upon both ideas. However, you never know. Anything is "possible" I guess. Like Mars Man said, "God" is typically used to refer to YHWH or the Christian God. It being capitalized shows its significance in being THE God. However, "god" is just a general term for any deity. In English, you usually capitalize nouns that are proper, such as names.
 
Why don't we just use the japanese name then, Kami is fine for me and easier to see in this context.

And insofar K's shinto-idea is not bad after all. It merges with/into the buddhist thinking indeed, with according respect even, and is as such also a fine lesson of Japanese history, and how to merge both without violence, plus understand the Japanese much better in general.

Only, please, don't come with an Amaterasu, that really lived. . .except you relate to general Kami manifestations, which would partly be boddhisattvas in Buddhism, who are buddha manifestations hereabout, while the buddha nature is inherent in everybody, etc.etc.
So is the Amaterasu idea in every woman, but as female side also in every man, to be correct..

It is also interesting in terms of psychology, we can even switch to Jung's archetypes from here, if there are more questions.

Could become very interesting indeed, like a cultural translation lab.
(I missed this already)

:-)
 
I will insist, here at this point, that as we are using English as the medium language, there is no need to make application of other words when the English words that we have fit fine. As has been made most obviously clear on the couple of threads here now that kireikoori san has participated in, that when using English (and this will be the last time I will point this out...for now...I promise) the capitalized form of 'god' is primarily referring to that one modeled in the Bible--especially the Hebrew Scriptures--and not to the general concept. The capitalized form is used as though it were a proper noun, a name...a person (or being's) name...which is also, actually wrong usage of the word, compared to its original usage. The Celtic gods had names (proper nouns) and they were used. YHWH is a god's name.

I would argue that the mixing of Shinto (as a system) with Buddhism (as a system) was very little; they mainly stayed apart. In Japan, then, what happened was that two religious belief-systems were maintained, and are still kept. The doctrine of Shinto is quite different from that of Buddhism. You will find families that do not practice Buddhism for the most part, but do Shintoism.


That aside, I'd hope to now deal with the title, theme, of this thread. I will have to wait for kireikoori san to come back too, however, but will start.

How are we going to define, or better reference the word 'god' here? Depending on that, and that alone, the answer to the question can be both yes and no. We will have to set those limits firstly, and I'll wait for the OP to get back to do that.
 
Ichiro is a baseball god👍

060104_01-1.webp
 
LOL!! Would've guessed as much, right? with all the money he's worth, that some one would go and make him a god. However, this actually will have to wait for a description/definition of the term god as used in this thread. Depending on that, Ichiro may turn out to not be a god afterall. Let's wait and see.
 
I changed the topic title 'God' to 'god' to avoid confusion because as I stated earlier, I'm not talking about a universe creator or meaning the term in a Jewish or Christian way at all. Well...other than the fact I used Jesus and an example.

I person who has many many people care about them probably have a decent amount of tug on the spiritual world because of that. So...maybe celebrities do in fact have just a little bit of divinity to them. But a God...? I really...I have no clue. It's a bit of a hazy area for me anyway.

To me a god would have to have a strong soul to them. As in like a high level of ki(Japanese word for the Chinese Qi concept). Again in English that's having a high level of soul energy. Also, being a god would mean high connections to the spirit world.

Being supernatural would not be enough, because a lot of things are supernatural. Kitsune(Japanese fox legends) are said to inhabit people, most often young girls and old men. Yokai or spirits are supernatural, but they aren't considered kami, or gods in Shinto are they? Yuki Onna or Snow Girls would not be considered kami or gods would they?

So I would say no, being supernatural or a celebrity is not enough, but a supernatural person or celebrity could be a god.

Or maybe I'm wrong, I've heard that maybe the word kami, translated as god can simply mean spirit. But then why is Yokai a different word?

What does it take to become a god in the Japanese sense? How much more than a regular spirit is a "kami"?
 
I will insist, here at this point, that as we are using English as the medium language, there is no need to make application of other words when the English words that we have fit fine. As has been made most obviously clear on the couple of threads here now that kireikoori san has participated in, that when using English (and this will be the last time I will point this out...for now...I promise) the capitalized form of 'god' is primarily referring to that one modeled in the Bible--especially the Hebrew Scriptures--and not to the general concept. The capitalized form is used as though it were a proper noun, a name...a person (or being's) name...which is also, actually wrong usage of the word, compared to its original usage. The Celtic gods had names (proper nouns) and they were used. YHWH is a god's name.
I would argue that the mixing of Shinto (as a system) with Buddhism (as a system) was very little; they mainly stayed apart. In Japan, then, what happened was that two religious belief-systems were maintained, and are still kept. The doctrine of Shinto is quite different from that of Buddhism. You will find families that do not practice Buddhism for the most part, but do Shintoism.
That aside, I'd hope to now deal with the title, theme, of this thread. I will have to wait for kireikoori san to come back too, however, but will start.
How are we going to define, or better reference the word 'god' here? Depending on that, and that alone, the answer to the question can be both yes and no. We will have to set those limits firstly, and I'll wait for the OP to get back to do that.

Sorry, but I do not quite agree here, because using our god-understanding is in fact very irritaiting, and it is very well known, that most Japanese generally do have a problem to even understand this, coming from another point of view of the matter.
The mix of Shinto and Buddhism is due to their acceptance of basically meaning the same, just seen from different angles, but no reason to argue about.
You find many Shinto and Temple zones united in Japan, even run by the same people, using both. I can give you many examples, fotos and according stories, experiences.
Often they tend to see the western god image in the very same way too, and it does in fact have same common denominations, if seen from their point.

Also I may say here, that despite this, hardly any Japanese calls him/herself religious in our sense and lives very well with all three at the same time, according to circumstances and occasions, which is, why Japan is said to be highly atheistic in the western strict "one and only" God sense. They define it differently, and thats what we also should try to see and learn.
This is widely accepted, also in serious researches, by the way.

I suggest this page:

Irreligion - Wikipedia

as for:

Irreligion has at least four related yet distinct meanings:

absence of religion (either due to not having enough information about religion or to not believing in it)

hostility to religion

behaving in such a way that fails to live up to one's religious tenets

an inability to come into agreement with all doctrines and teachings of normally prescribed religious sects

See the amount of Japanese in this
in the statistics

An often heard sentence from Japanese:

"Buddhism for cementeries/death matters

Christianity for marriages

and

Shintoism for daily life

But religious in western style, whats that?"

Thus it should very well to be seen, at least also, if not basically, through their eyes, not through western eyes.
For politeness' and the question's sake, which was based on Japanese view after all. Thus we should see their point first.
 
Jim Carey was a god..... and the same goes for Morgen Freeman.
 
Somehow, thinking of such people like those two actors as Gods rubs me the wrong way. Especially Jim Carey.
Once some becomes important enough to people that they would kill themselves if that person died, like Yukiko Okada, Hideto Matsumoto, Kurt Cobain or John Lennon, then MAYBE they've become a God. Because that's a pretty big tug on the spirit world.

Chi65, Mars Man is just trying to assert that Shinto is a religion of it's own. I don't think Mars Man is guilty of not being culturally open minded as you blame him of. Since you've opened the wikipedia floodgates by posting wikipedia, you should know that the wikipedia article for Shinto claims that Shinto only truly became organized as one to distinguish itself from foreign religion like Buddhism.

Most Japanese people are like me when it come to religion. They like to treat religion like a buffet and pick and choose the stuff they like. But Shinto is still viewed by most Japanese people as the true Japanese religion and distinct from Buddhism.

Shintoists often show an amount of religious tolerance. But that's because Pantheistic/Animistic religion believes in all having spirits so it's kinda hard to toss other religious viewpoints completely aside. But that hasn't made Shinto absolute perfectly tolerant, particularly close to war periods where national identity was important. And certainly not perfect universalism. Still I think Shinto has a fairly clean slate.

But about that god vs. kami thing...maybe you're right. I have in fact read and heard that god might not be a perfect translation for kami. I've also even heard that kawaii might not be the same as cute. But a lot of people in this world get annoyed if you throw words like kawaii into English sentences, so I'm doing this out of courtesy for them.

Anyway, he was just explaining to me some of my ignorance about Judeo-Christian religion. And I think that 'western eyes' statement is overdone and as usual out of place and crying wolf here. By your perspective of Eastern vs. Western does being an Odinist make me Eastern? Were the Vikings Eastern?

Or were you saying that the God vs. god thing is inherently intolerant? It seemed to me he described it as not better or more true than any other religion, but implying Jewish culture and omnipotent all creator instead of just divine authority. Again I see no "Western elitism" here, just a knowledge of Jewish culture that has penetrated Western culture.
 
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All I have to say is that:

"You never know if the person sitting next to you is a god/goddess..."
and
"You never know if the person sitting next to you is good or bad."

so yeah. I dunno.
 
I'm not exactly sure which part you did not agree with, Chi65 chan, but maybe it was the part regarding the two systems in Japan? If so. . .

The mix of Shinto and Buddhism is due to their acceptance of basically meaning the same, just seen from different angles, but no reason to argue about.
(bold mine)

I think it might be good, though, Chi65 san, to explain the words in bold a little more; giving some examples so that I can see exactly what idea you have in mind. Otherwise, the two religious belief-systems mixed very little it does seem. The fact that most Japanese attend to different phases of each one, does not make what I call a mix, because the tenets of the systems do not agree.


Chi65 said:
You find many Shinto and Temple zones united in Japan, even run by the same people, using both. I can give you many examples, fotos and according stories, experiences.
(bold mine)

I find that word 'many' hard to believe, however, when describing those who 'run' the establishments. That many temples and shrines are in the same neighborhood, is of course correct, but temples don't have 'territory' like the shrines do. . . unless I have really missed something. If you do have information on that, it might be good to share it.

While some other points made about the two systems used in Japan are correct, the gods are different, and that, I guess is the main thing for this theme.

I do appreciate your concern there, kireikoori san, yet kind of wonder if you may not have read a little too much into what Chi65 san was getting at?

Anyway...a lot of terms have come up which I would argue need to be defined and/or described. It still sounds like you are kind of searching, kireikoori san, and I'd hope to not only encourage that, but to help out too--since I too have been there.

I think that I'd like to take the definition of the word god, as follows:

an entity or state of existence which as the aggregate sum of it parts is greater than can be known to the animal mind--including humans.​

How does that sound, folks?
 
I think this is a question that can't really be answered.

How can a human be a god if it is human?
 
All very simple.

Just the definition for god should not be just like our christian "one and only and everything view" (because that simply does not fit) on a question like the initial one, but it should be seen through other eyes as well. I may not have made this clear enough, but can only repeat it.
Be this a mostly english spoken forum or not, its still also Japanese, thus should be tried to be translated in both ways, not just the english (which I also mean with western) way.
That was my main point.

I do know very well even, that Shinto to be the original and shamanistic based "method" of Japan, as well as I know Korean, Siberian and native indian Shamanism (and according shamans personally myself!), in short, many forrunners of later methods, religions.
I also know about the history and ways, Shinto was kind of "adapted" by later Buddhism, yet still mostly as alive beside, at times in front once more, right (see my "but" further down then)

What is important here, that the Christians, for example in Korea, tend to call those former parts "Aberglaube", not the "right" belief/way, and in Korea some christian Taxi-drivers even refused to drive us to some temples, until we heftily insisted. They were simply disgustingly narrowminded.

This can as well happen in Japan and makes me feel worried. No such reactions are known to me about or between Shintoists or Buddhists, which I indeed consider to be more advanced and open.

It has to do with this one and only view of whatever god is, and it will disturb our discussion heavily, if we see it from "our" god-definition. It will simply not work.

Also, what I meant in my statement about the japanese emperor, which was the inition to make this thread, that this kind of one and only does not fit nor give anyone the right to do what ever he wants, for example ruling under the false name of "uniting" the world, which is already known from Dschingis Khan or several Chinese emperors or whosoever (incl. Bush!) claims to act in the name of "god" (and I insist in writing it small, because I deny any human emperor or ruler to be enough "only one god" to have this right over all humans, particularly when wars are involved).

Whereas I do like and accept the experience of really being "in tune" with everything, like having a buddha-nature or being in charge for different parts thus as a kami, which would be more easily to be understood for us as a wise spirit, thus close to a boddhisattva, a said before.
I have no problem in seeing these as different and reaccuring manifestations of certain aspects, and accept also the Dalai Lama as being such a boddhisattva, particularly this Avalokiteshvara, which he obviously is, but so would any Guanyin/Kannon-manifestation be, since it has the very same base, only changed into a woman in the long run to the east.
We also have the green Tara (fem. companion of Avalokiteshvara, actually) in tibetan buddhism as the female form, it also is exactly this one. To see Canon as green Tara is in fact very interesting, because all those aspects are very positively nature and creation supporting related and even close to. . .Amaterasu. By which you can see, how flux the understanding of positive "powers" (if I may use this word here, please) is. Non of them likes wars, any war, in fact.

Thus any honest relation to an Amaterasu- or Canon-image cannot be agressive or overpowering, nor against nature, any which way.

And how I wish, the Japanese would come back to this kind of thinking. . .but many men seem to have forgotten, that the red circle on their flag means a peacefull wise woman!!. . . that will hide in her cave, when wrongly opposed. . .no sun thus, how very right!
I would too.

Making wars with this sign is a hit right into the face of the very goddess and image therefor and will have according consequences. This also applies to unnecessary agressions and killings in general. . .nature will indeed strike back.
I therefor do not consider the Japanese emperor dynasty to be wise at all, still not.

I do consider Greenpeace to be in the name of the green Tara etc. though. That fits very well.
Protect natural balance and human rights as well is also a job for. . .Athene, who supported as long, as humans were peacefull, but very well, but rarely, asked for arms, when that balance was disturbed and had to be reastablished (she was never into any kind of imperialism or egotrip!). Then, and only then, she became armed (and also changed into a man at times), often opposed by a jealous mars, that was accordingly ruled out, because he was only into agression and warmaking, although needed as a helper at times.

These are all projections of general inside human nature onto outside images, to make such principles more clear. And if you compare these, then you may well say, yes, a human can be such a manifested god, but not THE overall God.

As such, christianisations fails heavily in relation to such archetypes and it accordingly far too often leads to war. Same with wrong understandings of the original meanings of Islam.
In this case, two wrongs still don't make one right, nor does a misinterpreted Shinotism, misused for nationalism, by the way. . .
Thats as much a misuse. And any misuse is fatal.

Yes, a human can be a manifestation of god images, that he makes himself, but never the one and only above all. Thats nonsense. Only we all together in all aspects can be this, including all else thats around us, including all times.
Some have this knowledge, thus are a door to this, but never it alone nor only. But being a fine door is a fine goal.

Therefore:
A god, yes, but The GOD, no.
 
"Our" Christian view? "Our" God definition? I am no Judeo-Christian.

Why do you keep assuming we see things from a Christian point of view?
And again, like my last post asked, what are you implying? That we shouldn't use words like God or god but instead kami because neither are perfect translations for the word? That the difference between god and God doesn't matter?

You haven't cleared up anything for me with this post. It just seems like you're repeating the same things you did in the last post you made but in more detail.
 
"Our" Christian view? "Our" God definition? I am no Judeo-Christian.

Why do you keep assuming we see things from a Christian point of view?
And again, like my last post asked, what are you implying? That we shouldn't use words like God or god but instead kami because neither are perfect translations for the word? That the difference between god and God doesn't matter?

You haven't cleared up anything for me with this post. It just seems like you're repeating the same things you did in the last post you made but in more detail.

I don't assume, that you see things from a christian way at all, I never did. You must have gotten that wrong. But who wishes to use our (well, english, german, american etc.) god-image, thats based on christianity and the like, will not understand yours.

Thus I asked to leave it behind and go to your view.(I did not ask you, I asked Mars man, by the way)
Feel free, to describe, what you mean with god, I am very interested and with you there.
 
I disagree here with what you said Chi.
(well, english, german, american etc)

Incorrect. There are many people of other religions in these areas, and to claim that judeo-christianity is 'our' collectivley when talking of the west (EN,GER and USA). There are muslims who see it differently, there are buddhists, sikhs, scientologists, unbelievers etc etc etc etc.

The use of the term god is possbily incorrect. In keeping with Pagan beliefs (which I do not hold) why not refer to these entities as the pagans do - pantheons.

I believe that there is a spirit in everything, from wood to rock to gas to animals (including humans). Then there are the pantheons who rule over these spirits/small pantheons. I won't say any more, because the majority of my beliefs are my own and private.
 
I disagree here with what you said Chi.
(well, english, german, american etc)

Incorrect. There are many people of other religions in these areas, and to claim that judeo-christianity is 'our' collectivley when talking of the west (EN,GER and USA). There are muslims who see it differently, there are buddhists, sikhs, scientologists, unbelievers etc etc etc etc.

I know, thats why I put an etc. yawn. . .
and it was more relating to the god view of the english writings. . . or anything not japanese, if thats more clear.
Its mostly a translation problem, thats why I think, we should first try to see it through her eyes and words, whats so difficult about this?

The use of the term god is possbily incorrect. In keeping with Pagan beliefs (which I do not hold) why not refer to these entities as the pagans do - pantheons.

May be as misleading, so why not using a japanese word then?

I believe that there is a spirit in everything, from wood to rock to gas to animals (including humans). Then there are the pantheons who rule over these spirits/small pantheons. I won't say any more, because the majority of my beliefs are my own and private.

I still wish to know:
How do you see and call it, Kireikoori ?
Please. . .:-)
 
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