Maciamo's misunderstood thread
Now that Maciamo posted his research and gave a more detailed description about what he actually means, misunderstandings like at the start of this thread should diminish and we could finally come to the discussion as intended. But first things first.
Maciamo said:
So far this thread has not be the discussion it ought to be, but a display of how people react to preconceived ideas that they associated with the title of this thread. I only understand better to what level each of you is biased or politically correct in their approach to comparing head size and brain shapes. Some associated it directly with phrenology because they have heard that name somewhere and it looks cool to spit it out on a public forum. Others start talking about completely irrelevant things like how beautiful each race is or the proportion of head to body size.
It was a bit rash to dismiss everyone who did not instantly agree as biased or having preconceived ideas. Don't think you are the only one aware of the obvious differences between individuals in particular and between ethnicities in general. And I don't think we hide behind the so called "political correctness" (not that you said so, directly).
At the present time too much is unknown about the brain and its functions. We can only make assumptions about a possible potential of a certain brain region, but these could as well be completely wrong. In short, we don't know. One important thing you learn when studying natural sciences is, not to presume anything and deduce a conclusion publicly unless it can be proven. One would lose his reputation and credibility, and the career is gone.
Today people are a bit too science credulous, although simple question cannot be answered
yet. Or can anyone tell me the actual reason for sore muscles? Well it's still under research, medicine still lacks the scientific evidence...
Maciamo said:
I am sorry, but have you ever been to Japan ? English is like a second language for most people here.
No, it's not. And if I didn't know better, I would doubt that you are in Japan. Tokyo is not Japan, as NY is not the US. The big business, glamour, fashion and everything else under strong influence from the west is aggregated in Tokyo (and particularly in Osaka). Working in the industry reveals only one part of the reality. Our company sends business people to Tokyo although they don't speak Japanese. It's not necessary because our partners are fluent. More and more English enters the Japanese language and especially in Tokyo it seems omnipresent, but pronounced in Japanese it's hardly understandable and memorizable, similar to Latin when you hear it for the first time spoken at a foreign university - completely incomprehensible. A lot of business men you meet in Tokyo as well as Japanese who spent several years abroad, speak English fluently and on a very high level. Further and strong English influence comes from movies, TV, popsongs, fashion etc., yes that's all true but - for the average Japanese living in Japan, there is no urgent economical need to have a proficient level in spoken English. I was accentuating "sea-locked" country because I was indirectly referring to other countries i.e. in Europe, with its many countries bordering on each other. Especially Switzerland as a small and completely land-locked country has no choice but to adapt to its neighbours. Our market and economy strongly depend on the EU and although we are still not a member yet, regarding the dozens of agreements with the EU, it makes almost no difference anymore. It is inevitable to be able to speak multiple languages, even for an average job. There is an urgent need, and the bad employment rate adds to the pressure. Getting a simple job in an office or as a cashier? Well we are sorry to say that we preferred someone who has the same qualities, but also speaks English and French. My Spanish friends have (also due to the bad economy and low employment rate) no choice but to fit best for the European market. I don't recall this for the country of Japan.
Maciamo said:
As for the alphabet, all Japanese know romaji (Latin alphabet) since the age of 6 or 7, much earlier than they can master their own kanji. So they have no disadvantage.
Try Finnish or Welsh, same alphabet so no disadvantage. These languages are hard to learn if you're not already familiar with a related language (Estonian for Finnish and Breton for Welsh). It's not about the few letters from the Latin alphabet, the language is entirely different.
Maciamo said:
But Japanese people also need English to travel. There most popular holiday destination are Hawaii, Guam and Saipan (all English speaking). But wherever they go, they know that they will need English because it's the world's lingua franca. That may explain why Native English-speakers may not feel the need to learn foreign languages, but that does certainly not apply to the Japanese, who are very aware that their language is only spoken in their country.
Yet a lot travel although having really low English skills.
Popular destinations as mentioned above, also Europe (especially Italy and Switzerland). But
statistically Korea, Hongkong and Sydney are in the top charts. Not surprising with a statistical average of 1-2 consecutive holidays - if someone doesn't believe this, go look it up. The popular destinations are usually too far away, so it has to be a destination within reach. Golden Week is one of the few occasions when the popular places come within the realm of possiblity.
Maciamo said:
As for the environment, all signs in the street, subway, stations, etc. are bilingual Japanese English. There are certainly more signs in English in Japan than anywhere in continental Europe. See the above reply for more.
Thanks to a governmental resolution, all station and street names had to be printed in English throughout the whole country - regarding the influence on the English skills of the Japanese....I'd say negligible.
Maciamo said:
Anyway, saying that Japanese don't need English is not knowing them at all.
Nobody ever said they don't need it, there wouldn't be that many eikaiwa school throughout Japan, more than in any other country (as you already pointed out). But the economical pressure and the competition among each other are not high enough, and the conditions regarding language family, absence of
direct competitors and borders for the whole time resulted in a different development, and most of the consequences are present until today. Of course there are more reasons, some were already mentioned in this thread.
Maciamo said:
I didn't know there were many definition of the word "logic". The purpose of logic is to prove an argument right or wrong.
Well then you learned something new. The purpose of logic? Logic seen from a mathematical point of view is different from logic applied in philosophy. And it's not the same as used in daily conversation and in colloquial speech. The definition you might find in an encyclopaedia relates to logic as developed and defined in the occidental area. Argumentation you find in eastern philosophy or war-related books do neither follow nor match our definition of logic, but still the argumentation is highly logic and understandable.
Maciamo said:
Take two people and make them debate and see who has the most compelling arguments combined with the most efficient structure to prove it. Japanese people are so bad at debating that the government is considering introducing special courses in schools. You could say that the non-confrontational consensus approach of the Japanese prevent them from debating and asserting their views. But many business people now realize that they need more efficient and logic decision-making. It's not always the boss that is right and not always the feeling of the majority that is true either.
That's a typical western way to argue. Hopefully when staying in Japan for longer, you will understand why this kind of arguing is not working. On the other hand, a lot is changing and not everyone happily agrees or kills himself for the good of the company etc. The way of debating we know (some Swiss even see it as the 'art of debating') puts westeners into trouble also when in China. But this is culture and education, not testosterone. I for example grew up in Europe, I wouldn't confront people this way or debate if I'd grown up in Asia, I'd rather refrain from discussing without arguing anymore. But I grew up here, and sometimes I'm way too aggressive when arguing at company meetings - should be impossible with my low testosterone level.
I recall courses for businessmen (in the late 70's and 80's) and even books, which helped to communicate better with the Japanese and understand their logic. For a short time this became (relatively) popular, after several western companies miserably failed when trying to set up long term businesses with Japanese companies.
Maciamo said:
And whatever the brain shape, testosterone does have an infuence of rationality and logic too. That also explains for the more collectivist and less confrontational way of Mongoloid people. Don't forget that higher testosterone levels in blood not only means being more rational/logical, but also more aggressive and uncompromising. So I am not saying that being logical is necessarily better, like Elizabeth or Kara (among others) presupposed. At the contrary, it is this lower testosterone that make the Japanese so polite, respectful and altruistic. But as in the Yin and Yang, it is difficult to conciliate opposites in one same person.
The politeness is also a fassade, and behind the curtain the politeness is gone. Still there's a huge difference in daily life between east and west concerning respect and how they treat each other. But it's not that everyone's nice as they appear to be. In general I prefer the Japanese way, but here in Europe I wouldn't get far if I was overpolite all the time, that's sad but you know how it is. When I'm in Asia I change completely, that's adaption. I doubt that testosterone is significantly involved. My relatives in Asia are absolutely different in behaviour, and I wouldn't dare to confront them how I do it with my family in Europe. I'm somewhere between the cultures and between my relatives in Europe and my relatives in Asia. And I assure you, not everyone's polite and respectful!
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Some condensed information about our brain (I should go to bed!):
In neurobiology the brain is seen from 3 levels:
- the main functions of larger brain areas, i.e. specialized tasks of different areas of the cerebral cortex, basal ganglion and the amygdala
- functions and activities of bonds of larger groups of cells
- activities of single cells and molecules
A lot is already discovered on the top and the lowest level, we can accurately track the intensity and location of activated areas during certain brain activities. Listening to music, solving riddles or math problems, painting, strong emotions (fear, empathy) etc.
Also on the lowest level much is discovered about how neurotransmitters work, peptides and neurohormones, how they interact and how internal signals of nervecells are processed. There are accurate computermodels and simulations for single neurons and small groups of neurons. Though not much is known yet about the codes nervecells use to communicate with each other.
But on the middle level - almost nothing can be predicated about what happens between the topmost and the lowest level.
Knowing where and how intense brain activities happen does not give any explanation as to why and how. These methods reveal the amount of consumed energy. Measuring the consumed energy of areas of a supercomputer wouldn't give you more than a basic clue about the functioning. Why our brain works how it does and how it maps immediate perception together with what we remember to our consciousness (which itself is a mystery) - at the present time only basic knowledge is available.
Another problem arises with the exponential complexity of millions or billions of interacting neurons. No supercomputer will be capable of an accurate simulation for the next 20 years at least, if there's not a quantum leap in computer technology soon. We also lack the methods to measure and track consecutive activities. It seems that single neurons work relatively simple and predictable. But as said, the complexity of thousands or billions of neurons makes it unpredictable and the higher organization level, new attributes come into existence. While higher organization levels depend on the lower structures, new attributes are not predictable from knowing only the laws of the lower structures. Physics cannot predict chemistry, chemistry can't predict what happens in molecular biology and the latter cannot predict biology, it's lifeforms and social behaviour. This is not some mumbo jumbo, neuroscience progressed considerably in the last ten years and a lot is going to be revealed. But at the present time we know almost nothing
(relatively seen) and it's way too early to predicate theories as stated in this thread.