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Do Japanese have smaller heads than Caucasians?

Maciamo

先輩
17 Jul 2002
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I guess everybody has noticed the differences in skull shape and facial traits between Caucasians and Japanese (or Mongolids, shall we say) or more generally between any ethnic group. Japanese never fail to notice that their Caucasian friends have "deeper eyes" or "taller noses", for instance. They also say that Japanese have bigger heads, because it looks so, due to their flatter features and rounder head.

It didn't take me (us) long after arriving in Japan to come to measure these differences with my Japanese, Korean and Chinese friends (who were studying Japanese with me in Tokyo). Of course everyone is different, and there is a proven difference of skull size between men and women (men having larger heads). Anyway, we measured the following distances :

- head width (ear to ear)
- head length (placing a ruler against the forehead and another one at the back of the head, vertically, and measure the distance in between).
- head circumference (just above the ears and eyebrows).
- forehead height (from eyebrows to hairline)

The conclusion was that my head was bigger than their theirs for the 4 measurements, with the biggest gap for, forehead height, head length and circumference. In my case, it is very easy to see the difference in forehead height with my wife for instance. I can place my 4 fingers (thumb excluded) on mine from eyebrows to hairline, while I can only place 3 on my wife's forehead.

It also seemed to me that Japanese (East Asians) have a bigger head at the "top" (superior parietal lobe), but that it falls sharp and flat at the back (instead of having an elongated one), which give them an impression of "big head" from the back. If they do indeed have a proportionally bigger parietal lobe that would explain for their strong liking for everything sensual (food, massage, onsen, sex...). And if Caucasian have a larger frontal lobe, that would also explain why Caucasians are more logical, emotional and better at languages. Well I hope I not talking in the void here and that some people on the forum will have some knowledge of neuropsychology to discuss this.

Just in case some were interested, here is a "brief" introduction to the regions of the brain

I have found this study on the Net made by scientists at Keio University.

The head circumference growth curve for Japanese children between 0-4 years of age: comparison with Caucasian children and correlation with stature.

Tsuzaki S, Matsuo N, Saito M, Osano M.

Department of Paediatrics, School of Medicine, Keio University, Tokyo, Japan.

Controversy exists regarding possible international and interracial differences in head circumferences of children. We undertook the present study in order to see if there was a difference in head circumference between Japanese and Caucasian children. The subjects consisted of a total of 42,392 Japanese children between 0 and 4 years of age surveyed from 1940 to 1980, and these data were compared with those of American and British children. We conclude that there is a significant ethnic difference in head circumference, as large as one channel of usual percentiles, between Japanese and Caucasian children. The results indicate that smaller head circumference in Japanese children primarily reflects smaller stature of the Japanese.
 
Gosh Maciamo..you come up with interesting topics every time 😌 Anyways it seems to me most japanese ppl are smaller in proportion than westerners, but I wouldn't say they are not as good at languages,logical thinking...the emotions...well that's just culture I guess...they are just like us I think :?
 
RockLee said:
Anyways it seems to me most japanese ppl are smaller in proportion than westerners

So what ? Do dwarfs have small heads ? If the size of the body has any importance at all, 2,5m tall people would be potential geniuses (given the right education). Brain size does not necessarily correlate with intelligence, but certainly with memory. For instance, elephants or camels, doplhins or even cows, that all have bigger brains than humans (yes, humans are far from having the bigger brain, eventhough they are the most intelligent) and all have a better memory than us too, it would seem.
 
It is not surprising that people from different ethnies have different types of skulls, like they can have different skin color, teeth type, skeletons, etc : they have different DNA. Craniometry, the science that studies the characteristics of the skull, has described these differences of size and shape for a long time now, and these results are often used in archaeology, like in the search for the origins of the Japanese people.
But Maciamo, when you write :
If they do indeed have a proportionally bigger parietal lobe that would explain for their strong liking for everything sensual (food, massage, onsen, sex...). And if Caucasian have a larger frontal lobe, that would also explain why Caucasians are more logical, emotional and better at languages.
and link it to the shape of the skull, it is clearly phrenology, a pseudoscience which is dismissed as charlatanism. See phrenology - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
And I don't find Caucasians more logical, emotional and better at languages nor the Japanese more sensual
 
Oh come on Maciamo, I expected more from you (especially from a university student)! Usually your posts are very interesting indeed, got to say that here - but I do disagree with this one. No problem with measuring and comparing head size or any other body parts. There are differences, it's obvious and why shouldn't there be any. There might also be intellectual and emotional differences between different ethnicities, BUT deriving such assumptions from the head size and form is exceeding the bounds. We already had that about 100 years before this thread, don't you remember? I don't want to put you in some infamous category, Maciamo. I just think (as an Admin!) you should reconsider what you touched by linking the measuring thing together with assumptions about mental/emotional abilities, even if it would be in favor for us.
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There are still people like me who did not forget what happened at the end of the 19th / beginning of the 20th century, and where this led to. The entire "civilized" world was researching on this topic like mad and a new "science" emerged, being followed by myriads of insane hypotheses and their equally insane creators.

As I already said, there are differences. And we can talk about it, no problem. Without measuring it is obvious to me that my western friends (slightly) differ in figure, shape, metabolism and other body functions. But even today's science is not sure about the reasons, i.e. some Asian groups were considered to be small by nature, and recently it turned out that this is mainly based on the quality and amount of available nutrition. Especially when being in Japan it comes easily to the visitor's attention, that the difference in height between the elder generation and today's teenagers can be extreme in some cases.

There might also be non-physical differences (independent from culture), but even if so, it doesn't make us any different as human beings. In the whole context these minor differences don't matter. People stumble over differences in culture, but often confuse this with the exterior appearance and/or ethnicity of a person. All men on planet earth are more similar to each other than any male compared with any female. So for any future or already existing threads, if we should speak of races, it had to be the male and the female race. And to say it once again, culture is not race. These two are often confused, problems arise in differences of culture.

And to answer the question: yes, also my skull is smaller in the upper part. When trying hats in a western shop, it's difficult for me to find one that is small enough.
 
ToMach said:
But Maciamo, when you write :and link it to the shape of the skull, it is clearly phrenology, a pseudoscience which is dismissed as charlatanism. See phrenology - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
And I don't find Caucasians more logical, emotional and better at languages nor the Japanese more sensual

You seem to have no idea of what I am talking about. Neuropsychology is the scientific study of the function associated to each region of the brain. It has nothing to do with phrenology which was pure guessing. We now have the technology to visualize which part of the brain is working when people are performing some action (movement, calculation, speech), perceiving (5 senses) or imagining something. For example Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

Let me recommend you this book as an introduction to the human brain in general, one of my favourite learning topic.

rakuten said:
Oh come on Maciamo, I expected more from you (especially from a university student)!

What make you think I am a university student ? :?

There might also be intellectual and emotional differences between different ethnicities, BUT deriving such assumptions from the head size and form is exceeding the bounds. We already had that about 100 years before this thread, don't you remember?

See my response to ToMach. Phrenologist had no idea what they were talking about. Now we know which part of the brain does what, and it is easier to clarify the differences between ethnic groups based on this scientific knowledge. But don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that anybody is better or even more intelligent. Intelligence depends on lots of things, and education is probably the most important (whatever the DNA).

What I am saying is that it is not by chance that culture evolved the way they did, and not by chance that black people are better than other ethnies at sport and rhythmic dancing, not by chance that East Asian care so much about food and massages, not by chance that logical philosophy is an almost exclusively "Caucasian" (incl. Semitic) thing, etc.

Now we (humans) probably have a lot of research to do on this matter, and I think that the "politically correct" is slowly this process way too much. My view is that it doesn't matter to understand people how people are, because they are as they are and knowing it is not going to change it. Political correctness is like when the Church refused to acknowledge that the earth was round and turned around the sun. What did they fear ? Whatever they believed, that is not going to change the reality, and not going to suddenly create tensions between people who already know they are different. Not surpring that political correctness was invented by the very Christian American political elite.

i.e. some Asian groups were considered to be small by nature, and recently it turned out that this is mainly based on the quality and amount of available nutrition.

Nutrition or not, I know that Japanese people can eat a lot, and nowadays surely eat more diversified than most Westerners, but when I am in the streets of Tokyo, I can see the top of everybody's head. Of course there are exceptions, and I have met Japanese taller than me, but that's one person out of 100,000. Anyway, nutrition doesn't have much relation to brain size or shape (except in case of chronic malnutrition maybe).

People stumble over differences in culture, but often confuse this with the exterior appearance and/or ethnicity of a person. All men on planet earth are more similar to each other than any male compared with any female.

Aren't you a bit too naive ? Do you believe in physical (incl. psychological/intellectual) equality between all people in the world ? Then everybody should succeed equally well at school, at work and in love if given equal chances. I believe that not even identical twins are equal. But the mistake is to think that you can rank people simply. There are thousands if not millions of differences between 2 individuals. How could we ever rank which one comes as the "better" one ?

Unfortunatly, I come to understand that people who need political correctness are those who lack understanding of things of the worl or real deep-rooted tolerance.
 
Maciamo said:
You seem to have no idea of what I am talking about. Neuropsychology is the scientific study of the function associated to each region of the brain. It has nothing to do with phrenology which was pure guessing.
I know what you are talking about, but making as you do a link between the shape and size of the head and personality traits or mental faculties has nothing to do with neuropsychology or any true science, it is the exact definition of phrenology. And if you start making a link also with ethnic origin, you can easily fall into the same errors as infamous racial doctrines of another age.

The shape of the head does not reveal anything about personnality, do we agree?
Now I see no problem of discussing anatomical differences between Caucasian and Mongoloids, if you don't try to make us believe that it is connected to the mind.
 
RockLee said:
Gosh Maciamo..you come up with interesting topics every time 😌 Anyways it seems to me most japanese ppl are smaller in proportion than westerners, but I wouldn't say they are not as good at languages,logical thinking...the emotions...well that's just culture I guess...they are just like us I think :?
Yeah, how can a country at the forefront of software engineering and new technologies have a fundamentally illogical brain ? Most will tell you any emotional gap is also a deficiency on the Caucasian side. There may be something to pleasure/pain receptors or sensitivity to touch (although most Japanese don't enjoy being touched either) and any excessively unnatural interest in sex could be explained by the fact that it's lower between married couples than in any Western country. :p
 
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Japanese people have heads like SD Gundam :D

(Sorry the title was too funny, couldn't be serious) :D :D :D
 
I would have to think that culture plays a bigger role than the size of a person's skull. Not only the culture of your country, but also the way you were brought up and educated. It seems rather ludicrous to make a generalization about someone's brain shape having a relationship to some type of personality.
Like you said, we obviously don't use 100% of our brains, but the way someone applies themselves makes a difference. There would obviously be some differences between a Japanese person born in a foreign country and has lived there all their lives than someone was was born in Japan and lived there continously. I'd have to say culture has a more sigificant impact on the way we think compared to the size of someone's skull or brain. Anyone else agree with this?
 
Gaki said:
Japanese people have heads like SD Gundam :D

(Sorry the title was too funny, couldn't be serious) :D :D :D
hehe :D

I read through some stuff and it seems that because oriental ppl have better food they are more healthy and thus their brain performs better.They scored better on IQ tests than American ppl.I think that things like emotions aren't really related to the brain, but more to the culture.Different traditions, habits and a totally different way of life.
If you train your brain more often and have to study a lot you get better in things like studying or memorizing, cause when you don't do anything or don't study too much your brain gets slacky, it's like a giant muscle you have to train and keep it flexible.I think it's not correct to asume that the Japanese are less logical at all,as they are indeed at the top leading in technology (see Elizabeths post too) ☝

Also the size of the head isn't a factor that proves that they have lesser abilities because it's not that u use all of u brain capacities(I thought you only used 10% or something..not really sure tho)
 
RockLee said:
Also the size of the head isn't a factor that proves that they have lesser abilities because it's not that u use all of u brain capacities(I thought you only used 10% or something..not really sure tho)
That's an urban myth.
 
Maciamo said:
What make you think I am a university student ? :?
Maciamo said:
...(who were studying Japanese with me in Tokyo)
Sorry mixed that up, my fault. So you're not a student anymore and already graduated? Shouldn't you know better then? You were making mere assumptions.


Maciamo said:
See my response to ToMach. Phrenologist had no idea what they were talking about. Now we know which part of the brain does what, and it is easier to clarify the differences between ethnic groups based on this scientific knowledge.
Scientists of all times claimed to know what they're talking about (I'm corny here). Of course nowadays we know incomparably more than these alchemist guys, we can measure and track brain activities and we find out incredible things about the entire human body. But science is still far away from being able to make detailed predications such as stated above. We know in which brain regions epilepsy can happen, we know some causes that can trigger an attack and there are very effective drugs that make it possible for you to lead a normal life. But there is no cure yet. With all our science and high-tech instruments, a reason for epilepsy can't always be found. Too much is still unknown. Why can a 55 year old man paint like an advanced painter all of a sudden after he had a cerebral apoplexy, although he did neither have the skills nor the talent before that incident. Impossible for today's science to make a statement, they can't give even the slightest explanation (saw this on a BBC report last year). You might make statements like the one below someday in the future if there is proof, but not with today's state of science.
Maciamo said:
If they do indeed have a proportionally bigger parietal lobe that would explain for their strong liking for everything sensual...


My sister and I were always aware, that our sense of smell is more sensitive than that of most westeners around us (same with the tongue). Of course almost everybody doubted that. Recently it was proved that bigger noses (nasal passage) perform better in perceiving odors. But deriving social or cultural developments only from physical attributes is too far-fetched. Only having a bigger nose is not sufficient. While it seems that our family was lucky concerning the genes for our sense of smell, on the contrary a friend's family (also Asian) was rather unlucky.


Maciamo said:
But don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that anybody is better or even more intelligent. Intelligence depends on lots of things, and education is probably the most important (whatever the DNA).
I don't misunderstand you, I know you don't mean it like this. But I miss the facts and scientific results upon which your assumptions should be based on. You're putting your hands on explosive matter.


Maciamo said:
Now we (humans) probably have a lot of research to do on this matter, and I think that the "politically correct" is slowly this process way too much. My view is that it doesn't matter to understand people how people are, because they are as they are and knowing it is not going to change it. Political correctness is like when the Church refused to acknowledge that the earth was round and turned around the sun. What did they fear ? Whatever they believed, that is not going to change the reality, and not going to suddenly create tensions between people who already know they are different. Not surpring that political correctness was invented by the very Christian American political elite.
I agree that the stigmata and trauma under which the post-war generations live(d) cannot continue sooner or later. People won't believe any longer the misleading phrase "everybody is equal" when talking about differences between ethnicities WHEN there are obvious differences. It is doubtable whether political correctness was any good in the end. It masks out reality.


Maciamo said:
What I am saying is that it is not by chance that culture evolved the way they did, and not by chance that black people are better than other ethnies at sport and rhythmic dancing, not by chance that East Asian care so much about food and massages, not by chance that logical philosophy is an almost exclusively "Caucasian" (incl. Semitic) thing, etc.
It strongly seems that black people are better at sports, take sprinting as an example. But this is not scientifically proved yet (results of actual studies seem not to be in favour for black people). Some decades ago the Scandinavian countries were unbeaten for a long time, and one can imagine what kind of theories this nurtured. Certain social and political circumstances were fortunate for philosophy to evolve at the respective time. What if the circumstances in Greece wouldn't have been so fortunate for philosophy to evolve? Without our Greek philosophers, the age of renaissance and reconnaissance, would they ever have happened?


Maciamo said:
Nutrition or not, I know that Japanese people can eat a lot, and nowadays surely eat more diversified than most Westerners, but when I am in the streets of Tokyo, I can see the top of everybody's head. Of course there are exceptions, and I have met Japanese taller than me, but that's one person out of 100,000. Anyway, nutrition doesn't have much relation to brain size or shape (except in case of chronic malnutrition maybe).
I did not say there is a relation between nutrition and brain size/shape. It was also surprising for scientists, that bodyheight is more dependent on nutrition factors than on genes. Until recent studies, nutrition was considered to be a minor or even zero factor. The reasons for the sudden differences in growth are still under research(!). But it is clearly connected with the quality AND amount of available food resources. So is the recent growth of bodysize in the horizontal direction (corny here). What was believed for a long time even by scientists turned out to be completely different. This is nothing new, I studied Biology and I can assure you this happens relatively often. Physics also had to be rewritten several times.

When I'm in Tokyo, I can oversee almost all Japanese as I am 183 cm (6 feet) tall. But the same in London, Paris and Milan. Zurich, NY, Prague, I'm always in the taller group. From my experience, people living in big cities are not tall although one would expect so. Concerning Japan, did anyone ever go southwards/westwards? Every Japanese will tell you that recently the Japanese youth grew considerably, and I witnessed that often in the southern region. It's comparable to people in Spain or Italy.


Maciamo said:
Aren't you a bit too naive ? Do you believe in physical (incl. psychological/intellectual) equality between all people in the world ? Then everybody should succeed equally well at school, at work and in love if given equal chances. I believe that not even identical twins are equal. But the mistake is to think that you can rank people simply. There are thousands if not millions of differences between 2 individuals. How could we ever rank which one comes as the "better" one ?
Naive? I did not measure skulls and derive abilities from that. And I never said I believe in physical equality, you're putting my into the wrong category.
Read my post again, I even pointed this out twice.


Maciamo said:
Unfortunatly, I come to understand that people who need political correctness are those who lack understanding of things of the worl or real deep-rooted tolerance.
With the stigmata of (the misinterpreted) equality between all races still impending on us, it is almost impossible to discuss differences between ethnicities. I must be very careful when bringing the differences I notice(d) into discussion even when talking with close friends, although I don't value a group. Our dualistic way of thinking and the political correctness of the post-war time makes it impossible.

I would happily discuss this here in this forum, but what I still strongly disagree with is deducing social and cultural attributes only from physical attributes.
 
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ToMach said:
The shape of the head does not reveal anything about personnality, do we agree?

Not only has it nothing to do with personality but also nothing to do with intelligence.

=> Intelligence depends on : education, "quality of pregnancy" (nutrition and health of the mother), quality of the environment during childhood, etc.

=> Personality is shaped by : experience since birth, environment (in early child especially), influence of close people (family, school teacher, friends...)

I believe that DNA has only a very limited influence on either of them, but not completely inexistent. Watch out that DNA does not mean "shape of the head", but the whole physical constitution (including health, physical strength, etc.). It has been proven that some psychological "abnormalities" can be hereditary. It is also undeniable that epilepsy, left-handedness, autism, etc. have a genetical or inborn origin. But that does not relate to ethnic groups at all.

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Human skull's shape and volume

What could be related to ethincity and the shape of the head is the "potential" each part of the brain has. I mentioned in the first post that Japanese had "smaller heads" but that is only if we measure the circumference. The total volume of the skull is supposed to be approximatively the same. Actually I don't have the statistics for that. But all modern humans have a cranial capacity ranging from about 950 cc to 1800 cc, with the average about 1400 cc (sources). That gives quite a range of possible differences, although I suspect that 950 must be for babies. Other sources cite an average of 1350cc to 1450cc for modern humans. Nowhere does it say that one ethnic group has a smaller or bigger cranial volume in average, but that could also be due to political correctness and fear of racist accusations.

Let's suppose that all races have the same average cranial volume, but each ethnic group has a particular cranial shape, and furthermore each individual has a unique cranial shape him/herself.

What I want to concentrate on here is the ethnic difference in cranial shape. I will only compare Caucasoids and Mongoloids here.

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What is called "intelligence" ?

It is important to understand that stupidity is universal. All humans have the same ability and chance of being "stupid" whatever their brain size and shape. Depending on the country they live in and their socio-economic background, wil be well or poorly educated, have different kinds of personality, know-how and experiences.

Intelligence is a vague concept that encompasses various intellectual abilities, such as :

- logic, rationality, analytical skills
- arithmetic
- 3D skills, geometry, orientation
- richness of imagination, creativity
- language skills (futher divided in vocabulary, grammar, fluency, accuracy, poetry, etc.)
- musical skills
- body skills (sports, dance, gymnastics...)
- communication skills (not the same as language, but knowing how to relate to people, when to say what and how, understanding people's emotions, etc.)
- cooking skills
- artistic skills
- technical skills (do-it-yourself, mechanics, etc.)
- morality and spirituality
...

That is why it is so-to-say impossible to determine someone's intelligence (IQ tests only take a few of these into account).

Nevertheless, I think that the potential for each of these intelligence types vary from one individual from another, depending on their brain size and shape, as well as the number and density of neurons (which can vary a lot from one individual to another) and earsly childhood environment. The only one that matters in this thread in the shape of the brain/head.

Each type of intelligence and feeling is contained in a different part of the brain

Neurologic tests have already determined which zone of the brain is responsible for what. I have read a lot about people with brain tumors or damages due to accidents having lost some abilities, even the ability of feeling emotions (even when all the rest was ok). I reccommend this book if you want to learn more about this.

With this in mind, it makes sense that a person having a part of the brain more or less developed than another person, will have a quite different intellectual potential.

A brain is like a muscle : he needs practice to develop

This potential does not determine this particular type of intelligence or intensity of emotions or perceptions, as we have to consider neuron density (how "healthy" the brain is, which depends on the age and medical history of the individual) and how developed the senses organs (eyes, ear, nose, sensitory nerves...) are. Furthermore, it depends on how the individual will have used their potential. As you know, a part of the brain that is not used atrophies itself. Somebody good at mental calculation as a child but that never calculate for 10 or 20 years after that will not be good at it anymore. But practice can redevelop the ability.

The brain is like a muscle. If you do bodybuilding regularily, you will become strong. Once you stop, the muscle mass will progressively diminish. I hope this metaphor helps all those who believe that skull size equals to intelligence that it is not true. The important is the neuron density and the number of connections between neurons. However, it is undeniable that some people have a greater genetical potential to become very muscular. In the same way, some people have genetically bigger brain or greater neuron density, which increases the potential for developping conections inside.

In other words, a person of 1m50 will never have the same potential of physical strength as a person of 2m. But some people of 1m50 can become stronger than others of 2m because they have made better use of their maximum potential.

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This was a short introduction or reminder. Now the serious part.

Paretial & frontal lobes

If Mongoloid people have a bigger paritial lobe and smaller frontal lobe than Caucasoids, that would mean that their potential (mind my words) is greater for sensing and moving their body. The short connection I make with my observation is that indeed Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, etc. do have a marked liking for stimulated body sensation, like massage, onsen, etc.

Paretial lobe probably bigger for Mongoloids

As for the movement, I think that the culture of restraint and self-discipline does not make it obvious. But East Asians are notoriously agile and in good control of their body, which evable them to perform well in such sports as gymnastics, artistic skating, synchronised swimming, table tennis and martial arts. After all, martial arts, the art of controlling one's body, were born in China and Japan.

--

Frontal lobe probably smaller for Mongoloids

The smaller frontal lobe implies that Mongoloid people are less good at rational things and languages. I think it is obvious to the Japanese themselves. I am rather disappointed to hear some Westerners not trusting me on this, but they haven't lived in Japan and analysed the subtle differences between them and Caucasians/Westerners either. I have many Japanese (business) acquaintances who will ask me to check how "logical" their reasoning is, because they know I am better at logics, and Westerners usually are better than the Japanese.

Rationality and logic

In most of the "culture shock" books I have read about Japan explained by a Japanese author, they point out that Japanese are more emotional than logical in their decision-making. To see how Japanese react to advertisments and how easy it is to sell something that is cute, or that a celebrity sponsors, show how their decision-making process is much more based on emotions than cold reason.

I was told by Japanese businessmen that "Japanese logic" is linear. They meant by this that it follows a simple line of logic. Eg. in a chain of arguments like this : A => B => C => D => E ; E is true if D is true if C is true, etc. But if B happens to be false, the whole argument collapse. These businessmen were taking a course in "Western logics" and learned that the structure should be : IF A1 + A2 + A3 + A4 are true, then B is true. If A2 happens to be false, the rest is still there to support B. I was amazed that they needed to take a special training to learn such obvious things. They also clearly used the expression "Japanese logic" and "Western logic", and it was clear to them that the latter was superior, as they were happily learning it.

Language

Japanese language itself is not praised for being very logical or rational (ambiguity of meanings, particles lacking clear rules and confusing for the Japanese themselves...) or very covenient to express complex ideas.

As for language abilities, it is of course a matter of education. But nowhere in the world are there more language schools (and with native speakers !) per square meter than in Japan (even in the countryside), and Japanese aren't really famous for being multilingual prodigies. In comparison, most Europeans or Indians now speak 3 to 6 languages with much less efforts than Japanese spent to achieve the same only in English.

Watch out, this is just an average !

You can say this a a broad generalization, but if you take 1000 Japanese people and 1000 Westerners and test their reaction, decision-making and logical approach to solving things, it is clear that Westerners are more rational in average. That does not mean that there are no very logical Japanese people. What it means is that on a scale from -50 (rational) to +50 (emotional), the Japanese are maybe at "+10" and the Caucasian Westerners at "-5" (or "+20" and "+15", whatever).

Sensual pleasure and physical pain

Talking about potential, the most trained Caucasian brain has a greater chance of outperforming the most trained Mongoloid brain in matters of logic or languages, while the opposite is true of physical agility and intensity or body perception.

This may well explain why the Japanese are more sensitive to heat and cold, and why their culture has developed in trying to become insensitive to it (by forcing small chidlren to run in tshirt and bare feet in the snow). This also may also explain why sado-masochism is so "popular" in Japan (frankly, I know many such "S-M bars" in Tokyo, something I had never seen before). The density and popularity of (real) massage parlours, soaplands (or fake massages parlours ;-) ), and onsen anywhere in Japan is surely no coincidence. It also seems that most Westerners hardly care about onsen (I mean, it's not the first touristical attraction that springs to mind when thinking about Japan, justly because the average Caucasian brain does not enjoy it as much as the average Mongoloid brain).
 
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Well, its obvious that asian babies are born with large heads compared with their body. Eventually, the body does catch up with head. Using me as an example, I have a small head it is often difficult to find hats that fitt. However, my face is very wide making it seem like a have a larger head, perhaps! But, to be honest I am very tired of people comparing western features with other features from different races. I remember reading a thread on another forum where the person "compared western features with asian features" and came to the conclusion that there are less good looking asians, because western features are more desired.

I was a lil angry when i read that thread. :eek: ohh! please, a lot of caucasians don't even have the desired features that are so predominant in their race. Most, of the time when you see a symetrical face its either on a supermodel or celebrity. But, in general many caucasians have asymetrical faces.

Plus, i think all races are beautiful...I have heard that Brazilian woman are gorgeous! has anyone heard this too?
 
The size of the skull reveals nothing other than hat size. It is definitely true that the size of a person's organs are not proportional to the size of his skeleton/bones. I don't think Maciamo was implying anything else; some people are quite fond of their strawman arguments.
 
Ewok85 said:
They might have larger egos....

Very good point ! Caucasian (incl. Semitic people) have bigger egos than Mongoloid people in average. Of course men tend to have bigger egos than women all over the world too. Let's just think about what causes ego :

- status, wealth, power => irrelevant (same in all the world and usually sought by men)
- personal achievements => culturally relevant, because Westerners are more indivdualistic and care more about personal achievements, while Japanese care more about group achievements.
- superior attractiveness, charm or beauty => Could be relevant
- moral superiority => relevant for very religious people, and Japanese aren't

Elizabeth said:
Yeah, how can a country at the forefront of software engineering and new technologies have a fundamentally illogical brain ?

First, I never said "fundamentally illogical brain". I reproach you to always distort what people said in a way that suits you. Please read my above post.

As for the technological country that Japan is, the basic technology almost always came from the West, Think of it : trains (British), cars, cameras, radio, TV's, calculators, mobile phones (Swedish), CD players (Dutch), computers (American), video games (American), are ALL Western inventions. Let's say that they understand what people want (good attention to customers) and managed to develop each of these invention in order to satisfy the cutomers and increase sales. That is very down-to-earth, but not particularily logical.

The Japanese and other East Asians are especially good at manufacturing because it requires method, precision, organization and hard-work (for proportionally low salaries).

...and any excessively unnatural interest in sex could be explained by the fact that it's lower between married couples than in any Western country.

Good point. You remind me that emotions are also in the frontal lobe, like rationality and logic. Indeed, if the Japanese are more emotional than rational, a smaller frontal lobe also implies that their emotions are potentially less strong than Caucasians. That would explain for the lesser display of emotions on their faces (some people say they try to hide their emotions, and there may also be a cultural factor in it).

But the lack of display of affection is purely cultural. Japanese in fact do speak about sex more often and more openly than Westerners, especially on TV.

The fact that married Japanese couples have less sex than Western couple is due 1) to the abundance of arranged and loveless marriages, and 2) to husbands that work so hard to make money that they come back home too tired and when their wife already sleeps.

ragedaddy said:
I would have to think that culture plays a bigger role than the size of a person's skull. Not only the culture of your country, but also the way you were brought up and educated. It seems rather ludicrous to make a generalization about someone's brain shape having a relationship to some type of personality.

I completely agree with you. Did anybody say otherwise in this thread (was it ToMach ?)
 
I am not sure whether East Asian people have smaller heads or not, but I've noticed most of them have flatter skulls due to sleeping habits.
 
Anyuni_Nakashima said:
I remember reading a thread on another forum where the person "compared western features with asian features" and came to the conclusion that there are less good looking asians, because western features are more desired.

I was a lil angry when i read that thread. :eek: ohh! please, a lot of caucasians don't even have the desired features that are so predominant in their race. Most, of the time when you see a symetrical face its either on a supermodel or celebrity. But, in general many caucasians have asymetrical faces.

The funny thing is that we didn't even talk about the "beauty" of the head or facial traits in this thread. If you are Japanese as you name implies, that reveals a lot about Japanese values or way of thinking ;-).

Plus, i think all races are beautiful...I have heard that Brazilian woman are gorgeous! has anyone heard this too?

Now that's really offtopic, but beauty is a subjective concept. Personally I don't think all races are beautiful. I especially don't find Aborigenal Australian attracive (and I have met a lot in Australia). Btw, my wife is Japanese. ;-)

Sally_Hawn said:
I am not sure whether East Asian people have smaller heads or not, but I've noticed most of them have flatter skulls due to sleeping habits.

Due to sleeping habits ? Can a skull shpe change depending on how you sleep ? Flatter where ? I suppose you are referring to the back of the head.
 
Good point. You remind me that emotions are also in the frontal lobe, like rationality and logic. Indeed, if the Japanese are more emotional than rational, a smaller frontal lobe also implies that their emotions are potentially less strong than Caucasians. That would explain for the lesser display of emotions on their faces (some people say they try to hide their emotions, and there may also be a cultural factor in it).
In a nutshell, frontal lobes have the so-called 'executive control' function over human behavior, allowing allowing us as a species to think, organize our behavior, plan ahead, use time wisely, and communicate appropriately (with the appropriate degree of emotional control) with others etc -- nothing inherently related to creativity, deep thinking or formal logic. If the average Japanese could not understand 'Western logic' even when it was clearly presented to them, there might be an assumption for neurological disorders (smaller lobes being firmly associated by the way with hyperactivity, and possibly mood (depression,) or even psychosis (schizophrenia).
 
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ok, i'm confused. everyone agrees that different parts of the brain are responsible for different things. studies of various kinds of brain damage, as well as scanning/imaging make this quite clear.
thus it does seem reasonable to assume a person with a larger frontal lobe, for instance, might have greater potential in the frontal lobe-controlled areas.
however this suggests that people with generally larger brains would have a generally larger potential for intelligence (in the greater sense as noted by maciamo) - and from what i understand this isn't true. can't quote a study here, but i'm pretty sure i've come across this several times in my cog sci adventures.

ok, that said the biggest leap in logic that i'm seeing here is the leap from skull shape to brain shape. does anyone know if this is an at all valid leap?
phrenology wasn't based on nothing after all - it was (well in small part - can't say i'm too up on my history of phrenology) based on valid analyses of brain damage and its effect on behavior, intelligence, whatnot. unfortunatly this led to conclusions about people of certain skull measurement configurations being deemed less intelligent, or potentially intelligent, or criminally inclined, or etc. which were quite simply untrue.

oh also about the language thing, maciamo - you point out that japanese seem to have more trouble learning english than europeans have learning multiple new languages... here's a pretty obvious cultural difference that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with potential intelligence or lack thereof.

take sweden for example. the majority of the population speaks english, and pretty good english at that. most also know a smattering of french, german, or spanish. pretty average. of course, for one, it's the same alphabet. also plenty of common roots. also (and this is key), no foreign media is dubbed (beyond kids stuff). and most entertainment media is in english. advertisement is often at least partially in english. people throw in english words all the time when they speak. your average swede cannot go a day without a whole lot of exposure to the language. which naturally makes it easier to learn. as for their third language, learning a foreign language is usually a bit easier the second time around once you've got your language-learning-skills down - and again, there are lots of common roots. and hey once you've got french (for example), the leap is not that great to spanish or italian. etc.
also worth noting is that in countries like france or england where the native language is one spoken by more than the 9million inhabitants of your little country, and that furthermore dub their media to a much larger extent, and the immersion in a foreign language is less. and lo and behold, are the french generally known for their amazing language skills? or the english?
anyways this turned out longer than i intended and now i must eat dinner.
 
another interpretation for that study

Maciamo said:
Now we (humans) probably have a lot of research to do on this matter, and I think that the "politically correct" is slowly this process way too much. My view is that it doesn't matter to understand people how people are, because they are as they are and knowing it is not going to change it. Political correctness is like when the Church refused to acknowledge that the earth was round and turned around the sun. What did they fear ? Whatever they believed, that is not going to change the reality, and not going to suddenly create tensions between people who already know they are different. Not surpring that political correctness was invented by the very Christian American political elite.
I agree with you 100%, Maciamo. 自分が賢いとか正しいとか論理的だとか信じ込んでる馬鹿ほど手に負えないものはないよね。まあ、誰かさんにとってはいつもの事だけど。 :sick:

The cross-sectional head circumference growth curves for Japanese from birth to 18 years of age: the 1990 and 1992-1994 national survey data

conclusions: The results showed a persistent positive secular trend in head circumference in Japanese children of both genders. Comparison of these data with those of recent Caucasian studies revealed ethnic difference in head circumference, with Japanese having relatively larger head circumference for height as compared with Caucasians.
 
I don't know about these findings. In general, though, I find that East Asians and Caucasoids have different head shapes rather than bigger or smaller. If you look at a lot of Japanese they either have long and narrow heads or round and wide heads. Caucasoids (especially of the Western European variety) tend to have higher foreheads with a narrow skull and roundish backs. Mongolians tend to have the biggest, widest, and flattest heads of all North East Asians (Koreans following not too far behind).

You also have to remember that how these people were laid when they were infants has a large role to play on how their skull is shaped. Many Asians born in North America (whether Chinese, Japanese, or Korean) tend to have Europoid skull features because they were laid on their sides--which is the proper sleeping position--when they were infants.

Another thing, about Japanese being more sensually oriented because they have bigger top heads sounds absurd. A personality is not determined by skull structure but through neurons and life experience. The idea that skull structure determines personality is that outdated 19th century concept which also fed into the Nazi propaganda machine.
 
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