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Do Japanese citizens pay for the US troops presence?

Kinneary

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Regarding whether Japanese want the Americans to be in Japan, a recent poll taken shows that 80% of JNs favor the alliance with the US, while 73% believe it's important for the US to be stationed in Asia, and 67% believing that it's important for the US to maintain bases in Japan. That said, it's pretty obvious that most Japanese favor the US bases out here. (I tried to post the link to this survey, but was denied as I don't have enough posts yet.)

And as far as crime committed by US servicemen, I was interested in finding out what exactly the truth was behind that. Recently, my base had an incident where a couple of our sailors had a drunk driving head-on collision with a family of four. The CO of our base apologized to the family on television, and here on base we took a lot of flak regarding drunk driving. After speaking with the Japanese we have working here (I'm a corpsman working in a medical clinic), I got the impression that Americans were lawless hethens who couldn't be controlled. So I decided to look up the facts for myself.

Americans commit the least amount of crime per capita (.016%) than any other national group in Japan. Lower than Thais (.051%), Russians (.271%), Chinese (.428%), and even Japanese (.291%) themselves. So arguing that American troops commit too many crimes, or that we're 'undisciplined' is an invalid argument, considering we're the most disciplined in the country.
 
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Sukotto

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Since the complaint coming from Japanese around the bases is about US troops presence and the crimes committed by soldiers as a result of bases, any statistical analysis should not seek to mix non-military immigrants, expats, ect.

Do you know if these numbers mix military and those that have nothing to do with the base foot prints?
 

KirinMan

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So arguing that American troops commit too many crimes, or that we're 'undisciplined' is an invalid argument, considering we're the most disciplined in the country.

I think you may have missed the point somewhat, if the military wasn't here then those crimes would not have been committed. Crime is used as one reason that people like to complain about the bases, but it is much more complex an issue than that.

As the only American military here in Japan, yeah I suppose you are the "most" disciplined, but if you want to compare yourselves to something else, no you guys really are hardly disciplined at all.

You are getting better in comparison to the past but you still have a long way to go. If you understand anything about the culture and the people you may understand what I just wrote there. It also all depends what you define discipline as, I wouldn't go shouting it off the roof tops that your the "best" in Japan. Because there are people here that are more disciplined than the US Military.

The facts that you looked up, I would be willing to bet have no reference to the US Military, I could be wrong here but crime statistics concerning the US Military are kept separate from the civilian statistics.

If you want to include the link just drop the h from http and write the rest of it in, people that are interested will understand and check out the information for themselves.
 

Gentleman10

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I think you may have missed the point somewhat, if the military wasn't here then those crimes would not have been committed. Crime is used as one reason that people like to complain about the bases, but it is much more complex an issue than that.
As the only American military here in Japan, yeah I suppose you are the "most" disciplined, but if you want to compare yourselves to something else, no you guys really are hardly disciplined at all.
You are getting better in comparison to the past but you still have a long way to go. If you understand anything about the culture and the people you may understand what I just wrote there. It also all depends what you define discipline as, I wouldn't go shouting it off the roof tops that your the "best" in Japan. Because there are people here that are more disciplined than the US Military.

I have to go with Obeika on this one man. Frankly that was kinda embarrassing as an American that you have to pride yourself on good behavior. Dude, it's the United States military. Shouldn't you expect to have higher standards of discipline to begin with? Especially when you're in a foreign country?? Argh, this kinda-- no-- it really bugs me that Americans have this 'the world is our playground' kind of attitude as long as we're doing the right thing on an overall basis.
Think about it this way, if we're going to play world police, then if anything, shouldn't we be doing it in an even more respectful manner that what we usually do at home? I mean common, it's basic housemanners. Your mom tells you to be on your best behavior when you go over to Billy's house, so shouldn't we be doing this in foreign countries as well (meaning you act better than the way you act at home)? If the US promises to do something, then we aught to promise to do a good job of it, and not just think we should be permitted to produce a certain amount of crime. I think this has something to do with being proud of what we do and doing it well if you know what I mean...

I love our military, and honestly I think most would agree that our hearts as Americans are in the right place, but that sometimes our actions dont' reflect that. I just find it sad/slightly embarrassing that establishments such as our esteemed and disciplined military also reflect that attitude in a foreign country.
 

hanachan

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I'm asking that because here in Germany, the German government needs to pay partly for the presence of the US troops here, and the money is of course funded from the tax we citizens pay.
But why should we need them anymore? The Cold War has ended decades ago, US troops never helped German citizens during several big floodings while German troops were deployed no matter young or old. In one town where the flooding was very bad, there was a US base who just watched, while a German company from a base much far away came to rescue and build water barriers.
IMO, we are wasting money and those money should be re-directed to the German Bundeswehr who we can rely on more.
Germany has a great relationship with France today, it's being more important than the relationship with the US..., right?
I think that German people would not be troubled even if the US forces have gone tomorrow. In Europe the Cold War was ended, and the situation changed. But in Far East, without the US forces presence, it's very difficult for us to keep balance. I think that Japan should pay for it. Our Self Defense Force has a constitution limitaion, maybe the Bundeswehr is the same, too.
The US forces won't go out from Germany so early. The location is the best for Iraq War.
 

hanachan

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Making Japan into a part of the US?
A big, resounding "NO, THANK YOU"!!
Yay, ditto!!
Douglas McArthur did not do that. So he is still remembered as a good person though he was a dictator in Japan under occupation. ☝
 

hanachan

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Ok, go live in vietnam then if you believe the military do nothing. Maybe it can be south and north japan? There is war still in place with North Korea. Its only a ceasefire. If they ever broke that cease fire, where do you think the first place the would target? South Korea, and Japan. You think North Korea would show mercy to your people? They have Russian Nukes that they can shoot off of a ship.
Military Troops are not their to enslave your people , that is just hate coming from your mouth. The military is NOT an occupier. We are a defender.
Another reason military bases are there is because we are an ally with Japan. Allys protect each other, they dont turn their back. Allys put the pressure on north korea risking national security in our own country. Allys do that for other countries.
Hi, Nicholas0016. (I like your Avatar)
What undrentide wrote is true. But I don't think or feel like her.
Some of untrained soldiers commit crimes. Drunk and breaking windows is not so serious, but we can't stand that 60-year-old woman was beaten to death for small money. I know that there are "groupie-girls" who are looking for soldiers around the base. Adult women should know the result of their behavior. But the worst rape case occurred 10 years ago in Okinawa. Three soldiers kidnapped school girl and raped. She was only 12. They shamed all of the US troops in Japan. Very sad and unforgiven case.

But I think that these soldiers did commit crimes wherever they were, whatever they were, they were US soldiers or not.

(Recently the news said that one of them raped and murdered his girlfriend and killed himself.)
The US forces has responsibility to educate their soldiers and control them.
In Japan the forces are demanded to be very disciplined. Of course Japan Self Defense Force is not exception.
The problem is that there are people who use the crimes of the US troops politically. Think that who get the profit if the US forces leave?
Sorry, I don't know what to say in English. That's all for tonight. maybe I will write more. maybe tommorow again.
Thanks and Oyasuminasai!
 

KirinMan

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But I think that these soldiers did commit crimes wherever they were, whatever they were, they were US soldiers or not.

Could you clarify what you mean by this please. Thank you.
 

hanachan

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Ohayo, Obeika.
What I wanted to say is that bad men are anywhere. In those cases they were the US soldiers as the result, but we know that Japanese crimes are same or worse and the most of foreigners' crimes in Japan are committed by people from our neighbour countries.
As undretide wrote, majority of the US soldiers are great people.
 

KirinMan

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Ohayo, Obeika.
What I wanted to say is that bad men are anywhere. In those cases they were the US soldiers as the result, but we know that Japanese crimes are same or worse and the most of foreigners' crimes in Japan are committed by people from our neighbour countries.
As undretide wrote, majority of the US soldiers are great people.

Thank you, and I agree, unfortunately due to the media things have a tendency at times to get blown out of proportion in proportion to the positive things that the US military is involved with society here in Japan.

In a perfect world they wouldn't need to be here, but alas we dont live in a perfect world.
 

justinod

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Making Japan into a part of the US?
A big, resounding "NO, THANK YOU"!!
232.6 billion Yen (approx. 101 mil. GBP/193 mil. US$/150 mil. Euro) a year is too much to pay, especially when there are so many crimes comitted by those stationed in Japan... I admit their presence does help to fend off NK but the US also needs a base to protect their country from the NK missiles and Japan is located in such a convenient place.
For people living near the base, it should be hard to tell whether the US troops are there to protect them or harm them. Missiles have not reached Japan yet (so far) but the robbery and rapes are already there.
lol, ur not too bright.
A. how much would it cost Japan to provide the same amount of protection to itself that the us forces provide?

B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....
 

KirinMan

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lol, ur not too bright.
Dude there is no need to make comments to people like that.

You miss the point here, it matters zero about the percentages, the fact that one AMERICAN SERVICEMEMBER commits one crime is the problem. If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened way of thinking, it's that simple.
 
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Mikawa Ossan

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lol, ur not too bright.
A. how much would it cost Japan to provide the same amount of protection to itself that the us forces provide?
B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....
I agree with Obeika. It's not about the numbers.

It's psychologically different for an American serviceman in Japan to commit a crime against a Japanese national than for a Japanese serviceman to do so.
 

hanachan

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I agree with you, Obeika and Mikawa Ossan.
justinod,
undrentide said "NO" to bexchurnside's this part :
I think it would have been better if Douglas McArthur gave all Japanese US Citizenship, and made Japan into an American state.
about this point, I also say "NO THANK YOU".
 

justinod

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I agree with you, Obeika and Mikawa Ossan.
justinod,
undrentide said "NO" to bexchurnside's this part :
about this point, I also say "NO THANK YOU".
ummm.... and? i dont exactly get what ur point is on this one. what does this have to do with my post?
 

justinod

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Dude there is no need to make comments to people like that.
You miss the point here, it matters zero about the percentages, the fact that one AMERICAN SERVICEMEMBER commits one crime is the problem. If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened way of thinking, it's that simple.
it is wrong of people to see one crime committed by an american as somehow worse than one crime committed by a japanese national. yes, there will be people that commit crimes in any walk of life.
personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.
but to digress to the point here:
the military does its best to keep its people in line. the us servicemembers are good people. if you think that them leaving will somehow make people feel better and that that is worth the VERY high cost of them leaving, then nothing i say will change your mind.
life is about marginal cost/benefit. the japanese government is smart enough (regardless of some politicians' talk) to realize that the cost is less than the benefit.

I agree with Obeika. It's not about the numbers.
It's psychologically different for an American serviceman in Japan to commit a crime against a Japanese national than for a Japanese serviceman to do so.
psychology: determined by the maturity of the individual.
reality: virtually crime free us servicemember population.
YOU CAN NOT GOVERN POLICIES AS VITAL AS JAPAN'S PROTECTION, US-JAPAN RELATIONS, ETC BASED ON PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY.
 
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KirinMan

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it is wrong of people to see one crime committed by an american as somehow worse than one crime committed by a japanese national.

Yes, you still seem to be missing the point, if they weren't here then the crime wouldn't have occured. That doesn't just go for the US Military, but ANY foreigner's in Japan. Once you are able to see it from that point of view the rest becomes a moot point.

yes, there will be people that commit crimes in any walk of life.

I don't think anyone will argue with you about that. I agree as well, it would be overly naive to think otherwise.

personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.

Before I make a comment to this quote by you, I would really love to know where you are from, and what your nationality is. This is from your profile, would you please update it so people here can accurately assess and make replies to you without having to make assumptions. Thank you.

Country/State of residence:
Japan
Length of stay in Japan:
Never been to Japan
Gender:
Male

the military does its best to keep its people in line. the us servicemembers are good people.

The majority are good people, I will agree with that, and I agree that the military has been doing a better job of educating it's people about life and living here. There is no comparison to the "past", BUT it still needs to get better. I don't EVER want to see a US Military helicopter crash land on a Japanese University ever again, or a bunch of US Military personel rape a 12 year old girl, or murder a 20ish something college student among a list of other serious crimes and "mis-haps".

the japanese government is smart enough (regardless of some politicians' talk) to realize that the cost is less than the benefit.

All depends on whose point of view you are looking at it from. There will come a point where the "costs" human and otherwise outweigh the benefits.
Please answer the questions above about your profile, I would like to expand my comments to you, thanks.:)

YOU CAN NOT GOVERN POLICIES AS VITAL AS JAPAN'S PROTECTION, US-JAPAN RELATIONS, ETC BASED ON PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY.

You know when you "shout" like this people have a tendency to overlook everything else you had to say in your post. Just as an added comment I would add that like it or not all of these things "PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY are a fact of life.
 

pipokun

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B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....

The statistics does not include crimes of residents in Japan.
I think it is fair that you should compare the data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan.

2005窶扼ツ(窶「ツスツ青ャ17窶扼ツ)ナ?Cナ?O窶溺ツ人窶ー窶。ナ津ャ窶慊敘致
外務省 海外安全ホームページ|海外邦人援護統計
窶敕?催溪?ーテ??Q The number of Japanese commited crimes outside Japan:ツ 598
窶敕?催溪?敕ュナ?Q The number of Japanese who were victims outside Japan: 7070
In 2005, 17,403,565 in total went overseas
do the math, please.

Anyways, it is unusual for Japanese or American who commit crimes outside their country.
 

justinod

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The statistics does not include crimes of residents in Japan.
I think it is fair that you should compare the data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan.
do the math, please.
Anyways, it is unusual for Japanese or American who commit crimes outside their country.
i am slightly confused by "data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan". are u saying it should add in crimes committed by japanese abroad? and yes, the data i saw included all crimes committed in japan broken down by nationality. i am a resident, but my nationality is US. the data added in all crime from citizens, residents, and visitors.
math: victim: .04%, criminal: .003% but honestly, these numbers mean what concerning crime in japan, focused on us forces...
 
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justinod

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i havent figured out the quoting system here yet, sorry:
"Yes, you still seem to be missing the point, if they weren't here then the crime wouldn't have occured. That doesn't just go for the US Military, but ANY foreigner's in Japan. Once you are able to see it from that point of view the rest becomes a moot point."
Well, that is true, but ya know, if america didnt allow any japanese people to visit at all then we wouldnt have to worry about the crimes they commit. hey, if japan got rid of all the foreigners completely then there wouldnt be any crimes committed by foreigners... lol. i believe your argument to be... irrational. lets face it, without immigration japan will be basically deserted in less than 500 years at the current rates of .9 kids per woman (2.1 required to sustain population), and hey, without that tax revenue, cheaper labor (more supply=lower prices), etc, i am sure the econ here would be just as strong. lets see, isolationism worked well b4 for japan, right?

"Before I make a comment to this quote by you, I would really love to know where you are from, and what your nationality is. This is from your profile, would you please update it so people here can accurately assess and make replies to you without having to make assumptions. Thank you." done

"The majority are good people, I will agree with that, and I agree that the military has been doing a better job of educating it's people about life and living here. There is no comparison to the "past", BUT it still needs to get better. I don't EVER want to see a US Military helicopter crash land on a Japanese University ever again, or a bunch of US Military personel rape a 12 year old girl, or murder a 20ish something college student among a list of other serious crimes and "mis-haps"."
neither do i. but like your latter comments to be quoted, it is a fact of life. it is true that people can be evil and accidents do happen. i dont ever wanna see some japanese psycho kill an innocent english teacher, but it will probably happen again. **it happens. the question is what do you do about it? lock all the military on base? that would result in an inneffective fighting force. kick them out? that would result in the demise of japan as a powerhouse country.

All depends on whose point of view you are looking at it from. There will come a point where the "costs" human and otherwise outweigh the benefits.

no us military: higher japanese taxes to provide the same amount of defense=less consumer income=less money to spend=less company revenue=less company spending=less jobs=even less consumer income.... and so on.
how many murders/rapes were committed by japanese nationals over the last five years vs americans? yes, there is no reason to allow/validate a crime, however you have to realize that it will happen it is just a matter of who is doing it.
"You know when you "shout" like this people have a tendency to overlook everything else you had to say in your post. Just as an added comment I would add that like it or not all of these things "PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY are a fact of life"
apparently not, u read it... *jk*
look, you see an equal crime committed by two different people that are of a different color as somehow... not equal. either that or you just hate the us military being here regardless of crime. if it wasnt this it would be something else, right?
the truth: yes, they are protectors, yes they can be a menace... see the key there? ARE VS CAN (shouting again)
this is not a black or white issue, there is a vast grey area here. to think that no crime will be committed or that japan can survive without the us protection is moronic
 

Glenn

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About quoting: if you click on "quote" you will automatically be given the quote tags, but if you want to insert them manually, they should look like this:

insert quoted text here[/ quote] (without the space between / and "quote")

If you want to attribute the quote to someone (preferably the one who actually said it), then after the first "quote" insert =insert name here, for example
dastardly lad said:
quoted text[/quote ] (again, no space at the end).
 

KirinMan

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justinod, thanks for updating your profile

United States of American

😄 😄 :)

Ok you wrote,
personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.

Why in the heck do you think it would be cheaper? First off the facilities don't exist in those locations to handle the current force structure here in Japan. Secondly those locations also only provide limited training options for the US Military, it's not like you are going to get cold weather training in Guam.

Next, Japan pays the brunt of the costs of maintaining the troops here, MY tax yen supports them, I want a better value for that yen then I am getting now.
 

justinod

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Why in the heck do you think it would be cheaper? First off the facilities don't exist in those locations to handle the current force structure here in Japan. Secondly those locations also only provide limited training options for the US Military, it's not like you are going to get cold weather training in Guam.
Next, Japan pays the brunt of the costs of maintaining the troops here, MY tax yen supports them, I want a better value for that yen then I am getting now.
That is funny. I suppose that Japan bought the tanks, jets, ships, pays the salaries of all the men/women, provides the food, housing, etc. I don't think so. If you think that you can get a better value of protection than the US forces please wake up. I have a very close connection with the Japanese government's connections to the bases. My fiance happens to be a teacher at one of them as an employee of the Japanese government. (off topic: this system is broken. it is frustrating to see a group of teachers that are less concerned with teacher Japanese and more concerned with keeping their boss in the Japanese BOE happy. In other words, they have 2 bosses and the more important to most of them is the admin side, not the school side.)
Japan helps pay for minor things such as mwr, host nation teachers, etc. I dont know the stats on this, if you can find them, please do. However, I am gonna guess that Japan's government pays for about 5% when the total cost is counted up; that is the high end.
Lets do some logical thinking here. You want a 'better value' than paying less than 10% (good guess) for a massive protection scheme. You consider this to be a bad value due to a 16/100000 crime rate.
This equals: Japan blows a lot of money in Guam, Hawaii, Las Vegas, etc. every year. Yes, they have a positive impact on the economy of the US. But I think they need to stop coming because they are committing crimes. Sure its not that many, probably about 5 a year, but I want a better value.
That is pretty faulty logic.
Since the majority of cons here are proxy issues, lets look at the pros that are likewise, proxy issues:
Oil: who protects japans lifeline of oil? Japan can't do it. I am not talking Iraq here, dont go there. I am talking about the fact that for 60 years we, the US have been protecting this.
What if: I see a lot of posts here about the fact that 'nothing ever happened that required them to be here'. Yep.... I am willing to bet that it was the very presence of our troops/forces that caused nothing to happen.
Scratch my back, but screw you: I get the feeling that a lot of posters here have no appreciation for the US's friendship/alliance. This is not exclusive to Japan. However, most posters here would probably still want the US to promise protection to the nation of Japan even if our forces weren't here. right? So, you want the protection of the US but not are not willing to allow us to have a bit of strategic basing.
Constitution: This is the biggy. Until Japan revises its constitution to allow it to have a more offensively capable force, it can not protect itself. The military realm does not rely on contemplating whether one's attack will be twarted. What keeps enemies at bay is threat of a counter-attack. Japan has no way to counter attack any possible foe, i.e. NK. If Japan wants us gone, we can leave. This won't happen until the Japanese government is confident that it is protected; the constitution must be changed to allow for an offensive capability.
If you go further into the 'counter attack' mentality. What will it be that keeps NK from possibly launching a nuke when they actually have one capable of firing to Japan? The threat of retaliation either in mass conventional style or in 'eye for an eye' style. Japan could probably hit NK with few cruise missiles, bombs ( from fighters since japan doesnt really have attack craft), but that wouldn't do much. Why is nk kept at bay? the mass forces that the US has at its border and the massive firepower it can quickly project from bases here, nuke subs, etc.
Let's face it, the US-Japan alliance is militarily one sided. Japan gets massively discounted defense, we get a few bases that help serve our needs as well as Japan's defense. We will protect Japan if it is ever attacked (which is why it won't be), Do you think that a possible enemy of the US would consider Japan's involvement if it attacked the US, probably not.
Given the US's current arsenals we really don't need bases here. We can hit very hard, very quickly, and very silently with our subs, b2's etc. from the 48 states in the mainland.

The Carrier group at Yokosuka is more firepower projection than all of Japan's Air/Sea power. How can you get a better value than that?

Answer this question: Who is gaining the most from the US presence in Japan?
 
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