This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

Breaking news - host family murder-suicide

madphysicist said:
From your sarcasm in the "Students' parents should be warned that households have kitchen knives and rope?" sentence I wasn't clear whether you thought there was a point to warning parents or not, I wanted to make sure of what you meant.
Click to expand...

It wasn't sarcasm.

My post with the pdf link apparently went unread or unnoticed by everyone. It listed something like seventeen different categories of methods of killing used by Japanese families in murder-suicides (one of which was firearms). No sane person would suggest that potential Japanese host families should disclose up front whether they contain knives, blunt objects, ropes, automobiles, bathtubs, gas lines, baseball bats, or are near places they might be pushed from a height or in front of a train thinking that the information will give them any indication whatsoever how likely they are to be murdered.

My point was that there is no way on earth to possibly warn anyone anywhere of all the possible items in a home which might be used to kill them. The only universal common element in all intentional killings throughout the entire history of mankind is the presence of a person with the intent to kill another person.

If a person wants to know of the presence of any object whatsoever, be it a bazooka or a peanut, which would cause them not to want to stay in a particular home, then I'm 100% in favor of them having that information beforehand. But in the case of guns in the home the decision can only be one based on personal principles regarding guns and not on any reliable and objective correlation with the chances of the student getting shot. As noted in the article on Hattori-kun, he isn't the only Japanese student who has gone to America and gotten shot. Come to think of it....I can't think of any case where the student who got shot was shot by a gun in the home where they were staying. The only 100% guaranteed way to protect one's self from getting shot in America is just not to go to America.
 

If I were to request a gun-free home, I do certainly think it would reduce the chance of accidental injury or death through someone's incompetence. As for intentional killings, I didn't imagine it would make a substantial difference because as I said above if you really want to kill someone you'll find a way. But from a quick internet search, I could only find studies that indicate homicide in the home is somewhat more likely for people with guns in their home. That hardly reassured me. Whether you accept those studies or not (haven't read them all in detail), as I explained above I would still feel unsafe so would personally prefer an environment with no guns for my mental well-being.

Again I have been talking about the idea of hosts disclosing the presence of guns because it came up earlier in the thread and I think it's a cultural difference worth being aware of for hosts and exchange students. I am not saying the couple would be alive if they didn't own guns.

Is murder-suicide particularly common in Japan...?
 
madphysicist said:
I do certainly think it would reduce the chance of accidental injury or death through someone's incompetence.
Click to expand...
This may technically be true but the odds of such accidents occurring are extremely small already. So then it just becomes more of a peace-of-mind kind of thing. (Nothing wrong with that of course if it makes you feel better.) It's like reducing the risk of getting hit by a tornado. It's an extremely unlikely event but one way to reduce the risk is to go to a state without tornados.
 
They way you look at firearms has a lot to do with culture. I learned to shoot at 5 years old and got my first gun at 7. I went deer hunting with my dad starting at age 5 every year. I got my first big game rifle(30-30) at age 14 and began hunting myself for deer. We had rifle club for all 4 years of my high school , and bringing a gun to school in your car was not out of the ordinary . Over the years , I've owned at least 100 different guns and none of them have shot anyone. If I went to a friends house and saw a gun laying on the table , it would be no different then seeing a knife or hammer or hatchet , just a tool. Things are changing here in the US with the anti gun groups growing and most big cities have many laws on owning a gun in the city. In rural areas , they are still looked on as a tool to hunt food with and with crime on the increase , a tool for self defense and protection. As a former police officer , I found it interesting that the police in England are getting closer to having all officers carry guns soon with the violence in Europe growing. I do find it sad that in todays world that guns are thought to be evil when it's the person that misuses them is at fault , not the gun.
When I hosted Japanese students , it did not occur to me to expose them to guns and shooting. I took them shopping and out to eat and around to see the sights of Maine , but then again , I lived in Japan for 2 years and knew it was not part of their culture.
 

It's hard to find exact stats on accidental deaths because it's often hard to tell if something was a suicide. But they seem significant enough to me. And if I can lessen that risk at no cost, why wouldn't I do so?

I would feel unsafe in a stranger's house with guns now. Can't imagine how I would have felt in high school having little idea about US gun culture O.O

Uncle Frank said:
As a former police officer , I found it interesting that the police in England are getting closer to having all officers carry guns soon with the violence in Europe growing.
Click to expand...

Do you have a source for that? What I have seen is debate about when firearms officers are justified to shoot and whether these restrictions should be relaxed. I cannot find any serious question about arming ordinary officers except from a few (ever-present) loud right-leaning voices.
 
I looked back , but had no luck on finding the article. On Facebook , I get articles from around 15 different law enforcement sites. From a tactical standpoint , with terrorist attacks happening more often in Europe, at some point the UK may have to consider having officers armed. A lot of people can die in the time it takes for specially armed officers to arrive on scene. It seems the violence in the Mideast is spreading out across the world with more guns ending up in the hands of the bad guys and having to face them with nothing but a stern voice and a wooden nightstick is a bit unfair.
 

Well... personally I disagree with this. And I don't see this happening any time soon. Especially since there is a common view that our police are too quick to use force in general.

Anyway I've said my bit about my feelings on guns in hosts' homes which is why I commented in the first place, but I think my point of view is clear and I'm not really interested in getting into a gun control debate, so I'll bow out.
 
madphysicist said:
Again I have been talking about the idea of hosts disclosing the presence of guns
Click to expand...

I'm like the others who would be more likely to think to warn guests of the neighbor's dog than of my own firearms in locked storage with ammunition in separate locked storage.

madphysicist said:
Is murder-suicide particularly common in Japan...?
Click to expand...

If data exists online, I am unable to find it. Roughly half of murders are of family members, though.
 
I love threads like these where a good discussion flows. To exchange thoughts and ideas with people from other countries and cultures helps us to open our minds to other ways of thinking. To have so many posts with out going over the edge and getting angry is really nice to see.
 
@madphysicist While your perception of guns and cars may be different, the analogy is sound because both perform as tools to solve problems related to the basic necessities of life, and each are only optional and often dangerous options in the wrong hands.

Just because you prefer to use the supermarket option, and I prefer to use the train option, doesn't make the analogy unsound.

I do 100% agree that if parents are concerned they should absolutely have the option of knowing about anything they are concerned about. Just as I might want to know, prior to sending my child to Europe, whether the host family were into football because I might not want my child exposed to football events based on the level of violence between fans.

I also agree with all the posters who state that it wouldn't even occur to them to mention guns in the home because it's a non-issue. My guns are locked in a case in my mother's house, whereas her easily lethal to the wrong person medication sits on the countertop in the kitchen so she remembers to take it when she gets up. I would be far quicker to point out the danger of the medication since it's accessible whereas the guns are not and are only accessed under controlled, adult supervised conditions.

But really, is the gun, car, medication, or football game the problem?

I guess I'm not sure why vetting the home for each item seems like the appropriate answer when just vetting the family in question should do a far better job of revealing any tendencies of harming the children. In truth, I don't care if the family I send my child to are football fans, I just care that they are responsible human beings who will take care not to put my child in harms way.

They will make sure guns are inaccessible to children without supervision, drive responsibly and as little as necessary, will put medications away, and will steer well clear of football hooligan types.
 

True. Poor girl. But I wonder who called the police? You think she was able to call for help in broken English?
 
jumbobaby said:
True. Poor girl. But I wonder who called the police? You think she was able to call for help in broken English?
Click to expand...
Definitely capable of calling 911 -- she's been going to an American high school and the school year is more than half over. But if you take a look at the update I posted, it turned out she had been ignoring the argument, didn't understand the noises she heard through her headphones were gunshots (which don't sound like they do in the movies), went to school the next morning by herself and arrived back home around the time police arrived (who had been called because the host-mom hadn't shown up to work).
(That, by the way, makes me suspect her coworkers knew she had a nutcase husband. The typical reaction when somebody doesn't come to work around here is not to call the police...)
 
jumbobaby said:
True. Poor girl. But I wonder who called the police? You think she was able to call for help in broken English?
Click to expand...




Based on his three posts so far, I fear you may be feeding a troll.
 
The Japanese students, one male, one female, I took shooting years ago were college students, and I was one myself. I took them to the university's shooting range (for .22 rimfire only). They were both intensely interested in the experience. We were all minors (twenty years old), and it never occurred to me to ask their parents' permission, nor my own parents' either.

The woman I took shooting is still a good friend of my wife's and mine. She told me recently that her experience shooting was very "precious" to her; but in her years of teaching middle school children she never mentioned it to the students because she didn't want the boys to become interested in guns. This sounded weird to me. So yes, I know there is a cultural divide in views about guns.
 
I write this post with a weary hand, as I have listened to and been involved in gun debates with Americans many times over the last 30 or so years. It is very much a culturally sensitive topic. In a nutshell, Americans still hold on to a nostalgic yearning for the wild west and frontier life of their country's past. This is not intrinsically a bad thing, in fact there are many noble and honourable aspects of life from those times that if preserved would be a plus for any society. One of the most important features of this yearning however, is the continued obsession with guns and the frankly, ridiculous 'right to bear arms'. This is a bad thing. Only three countries in the world have this written in their constitution: The U.S.A, Guatemala and Mexico. Think carefully about that.

This obsession has evolved over the last century to become very political and tragically, commercial, where the huge amounts of money vested in the gun industry ensure an incredibly well financed propaganda machine, perpetuating this obsession from generation to generation.

Guns are dangerous. Of course they are; they are designed for one purpose only … to kill. Comparing them to cars or knives etc. is not realistic. Cars and knives are dangerous, yes, but they have a VITAL role in everyday life and the benefits far outweigh the dangers. Guns are purely a hobby, a play thing and collector's item, outside the military / police they are not necessary in an advanced society. A lot of Americans will disagree with this, I know, and here we come back to this historical baggage again that has set itself in stone and meant, that so many Americans cannot see the obvious facts and awful realities that people from other nations see when they look at the ongoing gun deaths and related crimes in the States.

Accidental gun deaths by children in the USA.

Accidental Gun Deaths Involving Children Are A Major Problem In The US

The concept that guns can protect you and your family is wrong. You are more likely to die if you have a gun.

Guns don't offer protection – whatever the National Rifle Association says | Science | The Guardian

Following the publicity and increased awareness of the issue from this tragedy, I think there will be a call for Homestay provider organisations and companies to add questions relating to guns in the host family home. It has probably been largely overlooked in the past as parents from other countries would consider the idea of having guns in a home so alien and absurd it wouldn't even cross their minds.

I don't want to insult the Americans on the forum who obviously feel very differently to me on this issue. I'm pretty sure you are responsible, and loving people. But that cultural difference with guns is something I strongly feel is destroying your country, rather than something to be proud of.

For me, the good news is that more than 53% of Americans are calling for stronger gun laws. Maybe it will take another hundred or two hundred years; but that gun toting frontier mentality will eventually be gone for good.

Australia, which has a very similar frontier and farming history has managed it. Here's a three part video, essential viewing for all Americans.


The conservatives hate John Stewart and John Oliver, because they address serious issues with humour, but what they say is the truth.
 
Ironic that you're using an avatar glorifying guns.

It's certainly true that the issue has been highly politicized and backed by moneyed interests such that it's impossible to discuss even common sense measures that the average gun owner would agree to. In part because the gun owners know that the real goal of the anti-gun side is to eliminate private ownership completely. So they fight every little measure that comes up such as closing the gun show loophole or mandatory registration etc.

I think you're oversimplifying the wild, wild west nostalgia. "The gun-toting frontier mentality" is a minority but of course the guys who go around "open carrying" are the loudest and so they get most of the press. The average gun owners don't get represented well in all the public hand-waving. You may also not understand the prevalence of hunting and sport shooting. The first day of hunting season here is actually a holiday for many large companies such as General Motors. As for defense, it's easy to cherry pick various studies backing up a certain point of view. The one thing statistics don't capture well are all the "brandishing a gun as a deterrence" incidents. As long as criminals are well-armed it's hard to argue that law-abiding citizens should be disarmed.

I don't agree it's "destroying the country." I say all this as someone who doesn't hunt or keep a gun by my bedside. It's just that the reality here is different from just about anywhere else. That's not to say things won't change. Certainly the pendulum seems to be swinging towards the direction you are hoping. It can only go so far because we have a pesky little matter of our constitution which is likely to prevent major change unless the Supreme Court somehow manages to redefine the 2nd amendment.
 
mdchachi said:
Ironic that you're using an avatar glorifying guns.
Click to expand...

007 needs his gun.
Perhaps I need to brandish one too as a deterrent to the gunsupporters on here !

I've come to understand that what I say won't make a jot of difference to changing the historically ingrained gun culture of the USA. As I said in my previous post, I'm weary of even entering the debate now, it's kind of like a cat and a dog having a discussion! ... a lot of noise, but neither understand the other.

Last evening, I tried researching the actual number of guns there are in America, and this article explains why I couldn't find the answer. It kind of sums up my argument and the reason why sensible gun regulation in the country is almost impossible.

How many guns are in America? A web of state secrecy means no one knows | US news | The Guardian

I think I'll hide behind James now. It looks like I'm going to be outnumbered.
 
If you're weary of gun control debates I don't understand why you're (apparently) trying to turn this thread into one. The theme so far has predominantly been one of disclosing the presence of firearms in the homes of potential home stay households. Gun control has been only a very minor and incidental part of the discussion.

I don't think anything any of the gun owning Americans participating in this thread has said could reasonably be taken as gun ownership being something we're "proud of".
 
I never understand why individual car use is listed as vital and necessary. It absolutely isn't for the vast majority of Americans. People choose to use them because of convenience.

States which don't disaffect people from their 2nd amendment rights have lower violent crime rates than states which bar people from their 2nd amendment rights. It's a simple fact that the USA is a violent country, forged in war and built on oppression and we're still sorting ourselves out. It can't be reasonably compared with countries with significantly different histories.

When looking at the USA compared with South Africa, a country with some similarities of historical oppression, the USA shows much better crime statistics and much more lenient gun permitting.

South Africa vs United States Crime Stats Compared

@Dotanbatan states that Mexico has the constitutional rights to keep and bear arms, which is technically accurate but in effect disingenuous due to the 1971 reformation of Article 10:

Gun politics in Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As a result of the changes to Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution and the enactment of the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives, openly carrying a firearm or carrying a concealed weapon in public is virtually forbidden to private citizens, unless explicitly authorized by the Secretariat of National Defense (SEDENA). For purposes of personal protection, firearms are only permitted within the place of residence and of the type and caliber permitted by law."

While we Americans welcome the opinions of our friends from other countries, I think a lot of us find them simplistic because our friends, as well meaning as they may be, just don't have much more than a shallow understanding of our culture, history, and the impact on our social fabric. I certainly wouldn't tell Europeans that they need to ban football because it's unnecessary and promotes violence. I find it incomprehensible that they allow it after seeing the riots and such, but I also recognize that just because I find it incomprehensible doesn't mean it is incomprehensible, it just means I'm not European and haven't been steeped in the culture, history, and institutions.
 
This American finds Dontanbatan's anti-gun screed arrogant and condescending. Sounds like an urban-dwelling Brit or Aussie; some of them love to pass moral judgments and tell others how to live. If not, then some other European surely. The nostalgic yearning for the secret agent 1960s makes me suspect that his familiarity with guns comes mainly from Hollywood.

Guns aren't some violent fantasy or hobby. They're fundamental tools, like autos and knives. For the last year-and-a-half I've been feeding my family with a moose I shot with a rifle, so guns aren't toys to me. I also use them for protection from predators, both four- and two-legged. If you don't trust a gun, however--if it's something that scares you and you're not willing to learn how to use safely--then certainly don't get one.

A gun is a means of self-defense, which is a fundamental human right. Countries like Britain and Australia deny their citizens this right by denying them the ability to be on an equal footing with the two-legged predators. My country recognizes and protects human rights and preserves them in our constitution. A gun is an equalizer, making an eighty-year-old woman the equal of a young, big thug who breaks into her house. In Britain or Oz, they'd lock up the old woman.

Anecdotes, opinions, and statistics on this issue are all produced by people with agendas. You want an anecdote? My son once stopped a rape in progress with a gun. He didn't have to use it, but he stopped the rape and held the assailant until the cops could arrive. Later, he testified in court and the assailant was convicted.

Keep your "advanced society." Leave your safety to the government and let the police find your killer after the fact. I believe I'll keep the responsibility for protecting myself and family, thank you very much. If you don't like how America does things, the solution is very simple: don't come here. Go to some other advanced society. We primitives are doing fine as it is.
 

Honestly I got a bit stressed out thinking about it, so had to leave for a bit...

Mike Cash said:
I'm like the others who would be more likely to think to warn guests of the neighbor's dog than of my own firearms in locked storage with ammunition in separate locked storage...
Click to expand...

From my perspective, I knew before that many Americans have guns in their houses, so I would not have assumed that they didn't. Since I don't want to stay in a house with guns, I would check this first if staying at someone's house.

What I didn't know before this thread is that it would be considered normal for an American host to hand my child a gun without asking me about it. I'm sure I'm not the only person who wouldn't have realised this. Even if the host doesn't own a gun themselves, they might take my kid shooting with a neighbour. So I will be more aware of this if I or my future kid goes to the US. And I hope hosts reading this would consider asking permission first, because after all it couldn't hurt to ask. Though what's considered a "minor" varies from country to country, and by the time my kid is at university I think they can decide for themselves.

I think schools and universities organising exchanges could also make some attempt to bridge this kind of gap in awareness with an information meeting or similar (not just re: guns but other cultural differences).

mdchachi said:
In part because the gun owners know that the real goal of the anti-gun side is to eliminate private ownership completely. So they fight every little measure that comes up such as closing the gun show loophole or mandatory registration etc.
Click to expand...

This isn't true though. I am anti-gun, I suppose. But I don't want to eliminate the current private ownership of licensed weapons in my country any more than I think it would be a good idea to ban eating meat because I personally am a vegetarian. I think appropriate safety regulations and humane treatment of farm animals are more helpful and realistic goals than banning something outright. I just wished to correct that generalisation.


If you're going to insist on making this analogy, the thing is, cars are strongly regulated. In most countries you have to register your vehicle, you have to have a licence, you have to be above a certain age to drive, you cannot get a licence if it's been demonstrated that you are a danger to others when driving etc. Reasonable safety precautions are in place. The same is not true of guns in America. This analogy is one of the favourites of pro-gun people, but they never follow it through to the conclusion.

There's also the fact that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill someone or something. I am anti-killing but pro-transport, so this analogy just doesn't mesh for me.

As for the idea that cars kill many more people in America than guns that was mentioned before, that's just not true recently.
FastStats - Injuries
10.7 per 100,000 versus 10.6.


If it's not me who owns the gun, I don't care that the person has the gun in and of itself. That's not my business. I care what the likelihood is they'll hurt someone with it. I do think the prevalent idea of guns = self-defence unfortunately leads to cases like that of Hattori and also this German exchange student who was killed a couple of years ago.
Father of German exchange student shot dead in Montana criticises US gun culture - Telegraph
These particular people seem to think intruders are around every corner just waiting to murder them and their families, and shoot first before assessing the situation. You know, someone actually came into a room I was staying in once while I was sleeping. Turns out they just wanted my laptop. Even if I'd had a gun to hand, not a crime worth shooting someone dead for IMO.
 
madphysicist said:
I think schools and universities organising exchanges could also make some attempt to bridge this kind of gap in awareness with an information meeting or similar (not just re: guns but other cultural differences).
Click to expand...

The university I attended in the U.S. has a sister school relationship with a junior college in Maebashi and each year hosts a big group of student for a visit of about two or three weeks. Among tbe cultural activities they offer is the opportunity to go out and fire some guns.... and it is always the most popular and fully' booked activity offered. At least it was when I was there.

I don't think the people of Japan would ever want private gun ownership on anything even remotely resembling the way things are in America. But I do for a fact from personal interactions and observations that there is some portion of the population utterly fascinated with guns and the idea of owning and shooting them. I sometimes see foreigners who have a revulsion toward guns mistakenly projecting that as also being a characteristic of everybody in Japan.
 

I don't think my wariness is representative of every person in Europe either. But I still think it's worth providing information and letting the parents know if their underage kids are going shooting that they will be supervised appropriately by adults with safety training (I hope...). As I said above I've been target shooting myself and I think it's a fun activity, I wouldn't want to stop my kid from doing it in a controlled environment.

I don't know how much news coverage it gets in Japan or elsewhere, but I think it is worth informing parents about gun culture just in case they're not aware. Something that stuck out to me from the article I linked about the German student:

Before he departed, Celal Dede told a German news agency that he had never imagined his son could be shot for simply entering somebody's property.
[...]
The 46-year-old father said he wouldn't have allowed his son to participate in the exchange if he had known.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"
8 9 10
Replies
237
Views
43K
caster55
C
Japan stunned by schoolgirl's murder
2 3 4
Replies
92
Views
31K
nagaryu samurai
N
NOVA British female teacher murdered
2 3
Replies
50
Views
12K
made of stone
Suicide in Japan
Replies
18
Views
7K
doudesuka
D
News The Carlos Ghosn saga
3 4 5
Replies
122
Views
18K
thomas
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…