ARTICLE: Japan rewrites its sex slave history

urecco · 15 Apr 2005

bossel said:
That's just you, as I said.
The issue is responsibility for the whole sex slave system.

If they wished to become a prostitute (or there was no way but to become),
they were not slaves no matter what the working condition was.
If they forced to provide sex, they were slaves.

In that meaning,the way of living or salary was not as important as how they were recruited.

Would you say it is okay to force women provide sex if they get paid more than adequate?

bossel said:
Used these 3 as examples.

I do not know how many people did she asked.
If she asked just 3 people, she really biased for the victims(self-stalyed) or was naive.
If she asked hundreds or thousands people and choose the three, her dogma or foolishness was extraordinary.

This is the quality of authorized report.
People never doubt about reliable of the testimonies.

bossel said:
Hmm, didn't you say these Koreans were technically Japanese? What's more, the police worked for the Japanese, hence Japanese responsibility.

I was not mentioning about who has the responisbility.
I mean there must have been Korean policemen and some of them must have leaked the information about kidnapping and some campaigns should have happened.

bossel said:
If you have problems with parts of these testimonies or with the report in general, contact the rapporteur or raise a formal complaint & then let us know the reaction.

Japan gave massive reports against it, however China,Korea and maybe Singapore blamed Japan a lot.
As you know,Japan has been required eternal remorse and apology.
So caring the emotion of the people in East Asia,Japan stopped arguing.
Actually,it was Japan's fault, I agree.

bossel said:
Actually, it would be quite surprising if there were no incoherences in witness accounts.

Actually it is quite surprising that people believe that testimony which says she worked after the war as Comfort Women.

urecco · 17 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
urecco,
I'm still trying understand your argument through that catalog of what you deem as facts. Are you arguing that comfort women never existed or are you stating that because the numbers don't quite add up that their existence is overblown or exaggerated?

"Comfort women" is another way of saying "prosititutes".
There were prosititutes. In that meaning,there were comfort women.
To put brothels near military establishments was common at that time.
The number of prosititutes have nothing to do with war crimes or abusing human rights.

The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement.

Shibuyaexpat said:
But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country.

It is very naive to think that victims never lie.

Shibuyaexpat said:
To your comment: "In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean. I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese." I not only find this insulting, but rather inane on your part.That's the equivalent of laying sole blame on the Jewish prisoners who helped the Nazis in the concentration camps for the deaths of other Jews who weren't complying.

I doubt the whole testimony. I have no intention to insult Korean policemen.

BTW,you really bias for Korean.
You seem to think Korean were always right and good and Japanese were alway wrong and evil.
Your rhetoric is too simplified.

Shibuyaexpat said:
And finally, I don't see the relevance of the U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944, especially since the case of comfort women became more documented in the decades to follow. Why were the cases brought forth so late? Well, there's this little thing in Korea called a social stigma, see. A woman's virginity (and therefore, moral standing) is paramount to her future life as wife, mother, etc. To be gang-raped is not something a woman openly discusses with a lot of people.

I do not know any documents mention about forcible recruitments or terrible living condition of Comfort Women before Yoshida testimony(1983).
Why were the cases brought forth so late?
There is a big chance that they just tell lies according the newspapers or what campaingers say based on Yoshida testimony(fabrication).
Even if the victims had never discussed comfort women by themselves,there would have been witnesses, families who could not shut the mouth,policemen,ex-soldiers and politicions who knew about comfort women.
If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago.

What I want people to know are.
1 Evidence
There was involvement of Japanese military(for preventing forcible recruitment)
There were the rules for hygiene, hours of service, contraception, payment of women and prohibitions of alcohol and weapons.
There was an US officla report about the comfort station managed well.

Japan at least tried to supervise Comfort Station well and at least one Comfort Station was managaed well.

2 Circumstance evidence
No campaingn agaist comfort women in Korea during WWII.
No mention in Tokyo Trial.
No mention in any other trials besides the one(individual crime) claimed by Holland
No mention in the treaty in 1965 between Korea and Japan.
(Both country and their people renounced right to claim any act in colonel era)
UN report says
"Nearly all evidence concerning the recruitment of "comfort women" comes from the oral testimony of the victims themselves. "

In 1983 Yoshida's fabricated "non-fiction" novel published.(Yoshida said he forced many korean to provide sex for Japanese military)
Asahi newspaper campaigned about Comfort Women widely.
Korean newspapers follewed.
Japanese association searched victims.
(In some country they found 20,000 self-styled comfort women because of misunderstanding that victims cound get 2 million yen.There are people who lie because of money.)
Many abused ex-comfort women came to claim.

Even Kum Ju Hwang ,who said she had worked as comfort women for 5 years since 1942 (cf. Japan lost in 1945),and Jeong Seo-wun,who said she had been taken to Indoneasia in 1937 or 1938 and worked as Comfort women for 7 years (Indonesia was ruled by Holland until 1942),have been supported by many people.
No one blame ex-comfort women who say something impossible besides Japanese right-wingers.It encourages people to tell a lie.

The testimonies given after Yoshida's confession are not enough to prove the overview of comfort women.
This issue was allegedly well-known because of polictial power of Korea and China, Japanese Kowtowing deplomatic policy and propaganda of Asahi newspaper and tie-up newspapers all over the world.

bossel · 18 Apr 2005

urecco said:
If they wished to become a prostitute (or there was no way but to become),
they were not slaves no matter what the working condition was.

Wrong.

In that meaning,the way of living or salary was not as important as how they were recruited.

Wrong again.

Would you say it is okay to force women provide sex if they get paid more than adequate?

Of course it's not OK. That's idiotic.

I do not know how many people did she asked.

Then you obviously didn't read the report well enough.

If she asked hundreds or thousands people and choose the three, her dogma or foolishness was extraordinary.

More probably yours is.

I was not mentioning about who has the responisbility.

I know. That's your problem: ignorance/denial of responsibility.

I mean there must have been Korean policemen and some of them must have leaked the information about kidnapping and some campaigns should have happened.

Nope, you said: "I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese."

Japan gave massive reports against it

Sources?

urecco said:
The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement.

The quality of your statements does match the quality of CCP statements.
A total of 4m Japanese soldiers is a pretty low estimate. The estimates I remember range from 5.5 to 9.x million.

Your rhetoric is too simplified.

Look, who's talking. I sometimes wonder if all fundamentalists attended the same rhetoric schools. Whether religious, ideological or nationalist, they all use the same crappy discussion tactics.

If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago.

Not necessarily.

There was involvement of Japanese military(for preventing forcible recruitment)

Speaking of too simplified rhetoric. This is one nice exemplifying attempt of twisting words: Involvement, yes, but only on the side of law & order. Very funny!

There was an US officla report about the comfort station managed well.

You don't mean by any chance the same report you quoted earlier, largely relying on testimonies of comfort women? How can you trust this report if you don't believe in their testimonies?

Japan at least tried to supervise Comfort Station well and at least one Comfort Station was managaed well.

One station was managed well? Even if that were true, what difference would it make?

In 1983 Yoshida's fabricated "non-fiction" novel published.

Liar. It's not a novel.

The testimonies given after Yoshida's confession are not enough to prove the overview of comfort women.

There are not only testimonies.
You really start getting on my nerves with your revisionist crap. You're becoming a little nuisance.
There is enough evidence to show that Japan set up a sex slave system. The question of overall responsibility is clear, even if there are minor inconsistencies in some points.

urecco · 18 Apr 2005

bossel said:
Wrong.
Wrong again.

Please explain how they are wrong.

bossel said:
Then you obviously didn't read the report well enough.

Do I need to read everything?
She imply almost no evidence besides testimonies.
And at least one testimonies is totally crap.
It proves that she never examined the reliablity of testimonies and concluded Japan did war crimes.

bossel said:
I know. That's your problem: ignorance/denial of responsibility.

Nope, you said: "I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese."

What are you on about?
It is obvious I doubt the reliablity of testimonies.
I do not mean Korean raped thus Korean is bad or anything.
What I wanted to say is "Would Korean rape Korean girl kidnapped by Japanese? I guess not.
Then what were they doing?
The testimony was quite strange."
I should have written "I wonder what Korean were doing at that time."

bossel said:
Sources?

It is bit hard to find in English.
Would you change anything after showing the sources?
If not,I don't search it.

bossel said:
The quality of your statements does match the quality of CCP statements.
A total of 4m Japanese soldiers is a pretty low estimate. The estimates I remember range from 5.5 to 9.x million.

Even if 10 million soldiers were there,there are no difference.
Soldier could not pay the fee once three days.
cf,I use the lowest estimate of 10 rapes a day.

bossel said:
Not necessarily.

But it is enough odd to say this issue is doubtful.
Please give me the reason why all victims,families,policemen,pliticians and ex-soldiers had remain silent before Yoshida comfession was well-known.

bossel said:
Speaking of too simplified rhetoric. This is one nice exemplifying attempt of twisting words: Involvement, yes, but only on the side of law & order. Very funny!

Involvement is really misleading word used by Asahi newspaper.
But polician admitted the involvement,even though it is not something supposed to be called involvement.
For example,in any countries,there is a law for preventing murder.
Asahi's rhetoric is like "As long as the gov't give the law,there is governmental involvement with murder."

bossel said:
You don't mean by any chance the same report you quoted earlier, largely relying on testimonies of comfort women? How can you trust this report if you don't believe in their testimonies?

The testimonies were given after the fabricated Yoshida's confession.
US report was written during the war by hostile people,there were no need to justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station.

bossel said:
Liar. It's not a novel.

In any case,it is fabrication,is it a big deal whether to say confession or non-fiction novel.

bossel said:
There are not only testimonies.

Give me please!

Shibuyaexpat · 18 Apr 2005

urecco said:
"Comfort women" is another way of saying "prosititutes".
There were prosititutes. In that meaning,there were comfort women.
To put brothels near military establishments was common at that time.
The number of prosititutes have nothing to do with war crimes or abusing human rights.

Are you saying that ALL comfort women were prostitutes? Just how many prostitutes do you think were in Korea? I'm not discounting that there were SOME (if not FEW) prostitutes who called themselves "comfort women," but you seem to be saying that they were all prostitutes, and therefore the Japanese Army should be absolved of any wrong-doing.

urecco said:
The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement.

As I mentioned before, the "quality" of these official statements has always been inherently flawed because UNDER JAPANESE OCCUPATION, who much real data could anyone gather? Think about that. Your country is under the rule of another country. How much leeway is there for subjugated citizens to find information on the full-scope of the invading nation's campaigns?!! THINK!

urecco said:
It is very naive to think that victims never lie.

I don't even know where to start with this one. They are VICTIMS!! Meaning that there are victimizers! YES?!!! That means that the victimizers (Japanese Army) are responsible for the acts committed against the VICTIMS?! NO??!! In this situation, who stands to gain more from lying? The victims who are trying to explain what happened or the victimizers who are trying to escape punishment?!!!

urecco said:
I doubt the whole testimony. I have no intention to insult Korean policemen.

No, your purpose is clear. It's to insult ALL Koreans!

urecco said:
BTW,you really bias for Korean.
You seem to think Korean were always right and good and Japanese were alway wrong and evil.
Your rhetoric is too simplified.

Did they teach you that deflection tecnique at the Japanese Imperial Debate club? My "bias" is for accurate information. Have I ever stated that Koreans are always right? In fact, if you knew my family's history, you would know that we are VERY ANTI-KOREAN, even though, we are from Korea. I have an American citizenship because of the dictatorship of Park Chunghee. I would be very careful where you tread...

urecco said:
I do not know any documents mention about forcible recruitments or terrible living condition of Comfort Women before Yoshida testimony(1983).
Why were the cases brought forth so late?
There is a big chance that they just tell lies according the newspapers or what campaingers say based on Yoshida testimony(fabrication).
Even if the victims had never discussed comfort women by themselves,there would have been witnesses, families who could not shut the mouth,policemen,ex-soldiers and politicions who knew about comfort women.
If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago.

Korea was climbing out from the rubble of the Japanese occupation and of WW2, when BAM!, the Korean conflict happens. Afterwhich, a dictatorship is in place and then only into the mid- to late-eighties, does the country enter into the infancy of a democracy (some may argue earlier or later depending upon the slant). Tell me, which which timeframe do you see a condition ideal for open discussion and discovery of what happened?

What I don't understand is that why do you insist that everyone outside of Japan is lying on the subject of comfort women?

I was going to argue each of your points, but that's a futile attempt at trying to assert my point of view. Clearly, there is no amount of evidence will ever persuade you otherwise. Maybe it is you that is biased, as clearly, "You seem to think [Japanese] were always right and good and [EVERYONE ELSE]were alway wrong and evil."

I'm through.

urecco · 19 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
Are you saying that ALL comfort women were prostitutes? Just how many prostitutes do you think were in Korea? I'm not discounting that there were SOME (if not FEW) prostitutes who called themselves "comfort women," but you seem to be saying that they were all prostitutes, and therefore the Japanese Army should be absolved of any wrong-doing.

I explained the system of comfort women.
Agents recruit women.The women provide sex.
The cliants (Japanese soldiers) pay the fee.
It is prosititution.

If Japan order to agents to forced women to provide sex,it is bad.
But what is bad is not the system of Comfort Women but the order of forcible recruitments.

Thus,I say the biggest problem is whether Japan ordered forcible recruitements.

As I mentioned before, the "quality" of these official statements has always been inherently flawed because UNDER JAPANESE OCCUPATION, who much real data could anyone gather?

When they have no real date,they should say that they do not know the number.
It cannot be the excuse of incredibly exaggerated number.

No, your purpose is clear. It's to insult ALL Koreans!

Unless I believe that testimony is true, I do not mean Korean policemen raped kidnapped Korean girls.
Do you think I believe that testimoy is true?
Is it clear?
Clearly not.

Did they teach you that deflection tecnique at the Japanese Imperial Debate club? My "bias" is for accurate information. Have I ever stated that Koreans are always right? In fact, if you knew my family's history, you would know that we are VERY ANTI-KOREAN, even though, we are from Korea. I have an American citizenship because of the dictatorship of Park Chunghee. I would be very careful where you tread...

Do you bias for accurate information?
But you said "testimonies are not accurate, and Korean offcial statements are flawed." and you support them.
You bias for inaccurate information or Korea.
You mean you are Korean American. right?
Why do you show Japanese Flag?

Korea was climbing out from the rubble of the Japanese occupation and of WW2, when BAM!, the Korean conflict happens. Afterwhich, a dictatorship is in place and then only into the mid- to late-eighties, does the country enter into the infancy of a democracy (some may argue earlier or later depending upon the slant). Tell me, which which timeframe do you see a condition ideal for open discussion and discovery of what happened?

Even comfort women in North Korea could discuss through governmental support.
As long as their opinon get on well with dictator,they can speak anything.
Anti-Japanese has been continuous policy after the world war II.
In fact the people who were killed and could not speak were pro-Japanese citizens.
Even now,the govenment is trying to ban people from showing any beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/03/20/20050320000019.html
sorry I cant find English version.But I believe you can read Japanese.

Shibuyaexpat · 19 Apr 2005

urecco said:
If Japan order to agents to forced women to provide sex,it is bad.
But what is bad is not the system of Comfort Women but the order of forcible recruitments.
Thus,I say the biggest problem is whether Japan ordered forcible recruitements.

I think this is where we differ. You still seem to believe that the matter of ﾂ"forcible recruitementsﾂ" is a matter up for debate, as if there is still some question on whether or not this actually happened.

urecco said:
When they have no real date,they should say that they do not know the number.
It cannot be the excuse of incredibly exaggerated number.

Like many elements of research, the numbers are based on the most accurate information available, and then an estimate is provided. I'll reiterate (for the last time) my previous point: It doesn't matter if there was one, 100, 100,000 or 1,000,000 comfort women. The fact remains that the Japanese Imperial Army forcibly raped women. Will you deny this? And don't go asking me for data on if the rapes actually happened if you're not going to believe the testimony of the victims. You seem to believe that the Japanese army (or any other rapist) would keep a catalog diary of all its victims.

urecco said:
Unless I believe that testimony is true, I do not mean Korean policemen raped kidnapped Korean girls.
Do you think I believe that testimoy is true?
Is it clear?
Clearly not.

Tell you what. I'll gather 15 men and force them to gang-rape you repeatedly. Let's see how ﾂ"accurateﾂ" your testimony is.

urecco said:
Do you bias for accurate information?
But you said "testimonies are not accurate, and Korean offcial statements are flawed." and you support them.
You bias for inaccurate information or Korea.

I said:

ShibuyaExpat said:
Therefore, we are in a situation where verbal testimony (where and when available) is the only means of extrapolating the past events. Are those perfect? Are they 100% accurate? Do they fit within your criteria of "valid" information? No. But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country.

Notice I used ﾂ"perfect,ﾂ" ﾂ"100% accurate.ﾂ" Read carefully, my friend, because the words are there for a reason. NO INFORMATION CAN 100% accurate. Are you 100% accurate in all of your memories and recollections??!! I'm not supporting FLAWED data. I'm supporting the best AVAILABLE DATA!!!

urecco said:
You mean you are Korean American. right?

No, I mean I'm American of Korean descent. Big difference.

urecco said:
Why do you show Japanese Flag?

Because the way that this forum is set up, the flag is an indicator of where you currently live. I currently live in Tokyo (hence SHIBUYAEXPAT handle).

urecco said:
Even comfort women in North Korea could discuss through governmental support.
As long as their opinon get on well with dictator,they can speak anything.
Anti-Japanese has been continuous policy after the world war II.
In fact the people who were killed and could not speak were pro-Japanese citizens.

Where are you getting this information that pro-Japanese citizens were killed? And if they were, could it be because they were committing crimes against their own people? Did that ever occur to you?

urecco said:
Even now,the govenment is trying to ban people from showing any beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/dat...0320000019.html
sorry I cant find English version.But I believe you can read Japanese.

HA!HA!HA! ﾂ"Beneficial points of Japanese Colonization?ﾂ" I dare you go to any country outside Japan and pose this topic. If there were any benefits, the overall atrocities committed, I think, would outweigh all the benefits. Your comment is akin to a murder defending his action by saying that the victim doesn't have to worry about paying taxes anymore.

bossel · 20 Apr 2005

round & round

urecco said:
Please explain how they are wrong.

Not only the beginning is important, but also the end & the in-between.

Let's see, a totally unrelated, hypothetical & completely unrealistic example:
I hire you as an office worker for a salary of 1800 per month. After you signed your contract, I don't pay you, don't let you leave my premises, I let you only clean the dustbins & the sewers, smack you over the head every time I see you, & every other day I put a stick up your arse. After 5 years of that, I'll give you a pay-check over 1800 Turkish Lira, give you a hand-shake & a smile. You can return home (or better yet: I simply kill you, since this would save me some money & relieve me of some effort).
I suppose, since I hired you properly I did everything right?

Do I need to read everything?

Of course not. You only need to read those points which fit into your narrow mindset.

The testimony was quite strange.

Your related questions are stranger.

Would you change anything after showing the sources?

That depends on the sources.

Even if 10 million soldiers were there,there are no difference.
Soldier could not pay the fee once three days.
cf,I use the lowest estimate of 10 rapes a day.

Whose estimate is that? Me seems, your calculation is slightly over-simplified, anyway.

Please give me the reason why all victims,families,policemen,pliticians and ex-soldiers had remain silent before Yoshida comfession was well-known.

See Shibuyexpat.

The testimonies were given after the fabricated Yoshida's confession. US report was written during the war by hostile people,there were no need to justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station.

Er..., have you read the same report as was linked before? Where in there does anybody "justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station"?

In any case,it is fabrication,is it a big deal whether to say confession or non-fiction novel.

A big deal? No, but it very clearly shows your way of twisting & turning the truth until it fits your perspective.
It's memoires, if you know what that means. You believe it's a fabrication.

Give me please!

Read the UNHCHR report!

urecco · 20 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
I think this is where we differ. You still seem to believe that the matter of ﾂ"forcible recruitementsﾂ" is a matter up for debate, as if there is still some question on whether or not this actually happened.

There is no proof besides testimonies.
Nobody besides Dutch gov't mentioned Japanese forcible recruitments for 40 years despite the existance of treaties and war crime tributals.
And every testimony came to be given after fabricated Yoshida testimony.
That's enough to doubt the existance of forcible recruitments.

BTW,there is one comfort women who claimed with evidence.
Her name is 窶｢ﾂｶ窶ｹﾃ看ｽﾃｬ and she showed a banknote and advenced a claim for the savings of 23,145 yen (worth 50 to 100 million yen now) which she could not have withdrawn.
cf.she had been sold by parents to an agent.

Like many elements of research, the numbers are based on the most accurate information available, and then an estimate is provided. I'll reiterate (for the last time) my previous point: It doesn't matter if there was one, 100, 100,000 or 1,000,000 comfort women. The fact remains that the Japanese Imperial Army forcibly raped women. Will you deny this? And don't go asking me for data on if the rapes actually happened if you're not going to believe the testimony of the victims. You seem to believe that the Japanese army (or any other rapist) would keep a catalog diary of all its victims.

What is the source of the estimated number?
Even if it did not the matter if there was one or 1,000,000, it does not justify the exaggeration.
And also the number of total comfort women is important.
If there were 200,000 comfort women,there was little chance that agents recruited them properly,whilst if there were 100 comfort women, there were no need to force them as long as the salary was fair.
According Japanese historian, the total number of Korean comfort women were about 4,000.

Notice I used ﾂ"perfect,ﾂ" ﾂ"100% accurate.ﾂ" Read carefully, my friend, because the words are there for a reason. NO INFORMATION CAN 100% accurate. Are you 100% accurate in all of your memories and recollections??!! I'm not supporting FLAWED data. I'm supporting the best AVAILABLE DATA!!!

There are documents which show Japan tried to prevent forcible recruitment and the rule for managing brothel properly.
And report of properly managed brothel.
They are the best available date.

Testimonies wihtout examination do not prove anything.

No, I mean I'm American of Korean descent. Big difference.
Because the way that this forum is set up, the flag is an indicator of where you currently live. I currently live in Tokyo (hence SHIBUYAEXPAT handle).

Sorry,i misunderstood that.

Where are you getting this information that pro-Japanese citizens were killed? And if they were, could it be because they were committing crimes against their own people? Did that ever occur to you?

In 窶披?ｺﾂ渉ｳ窶敕督 era, to admire Japanese Colonization or to critisize Lee Chosen era were crimes.Some must have been killed.
But the point is even under the dictatorship they could say many things as long as they were agaist Japan.

HA!HA!HA! ﾂ"Beneficial points of Japanese Colonization?ﾂ" I dare you go to any country outside Japan and pose this topic. If there were any benefits, the overall atrocities committed, I think, would outweigh all the benefits. Your comment is akin to a murder defending his action by saying that the victim doesn't have to worry about paying taxes anymore.

What I want to say is that Korean cannot say beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.It does not matter whether the benefits outweigh the loss.
The benefits were:
Japan abolished brutal hierarchy in Korea.
(Every Korean says they are descendant of Yangban,which was high class,so they do not care when and why it was abolished)
Japan systemized Korean alphabets (hangle),which was regarded as alphabets for idiots by Yangban.The first dictionary of Korean were published during the Japanese Colonial era.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200402/200402260026.html
Much was invested in schools, public health systems, railways, hydroelectric projects, and the like.
Offspring of Empire: The Koch'Ang Kims and the Colonial Origins of Korean Capitalism, 1876-1945 (Korean Studies of the Henry M. Jackson School of in): Eckert, Carter J.: 9780295970653: Amazon.com: Books

It is absurd to ban people especially historians from mentioning what gov't want to hide.

Shibuyaexpat · 22 Apr 2005

urecco said:
There is no proof besides testimonies.

Hey DJ, spin another record. This song's getting old.

urecco said:
Nobody besides Dutch gov't mentioned Japanese forcible recruitments for 40 years despite the existance of treaties and war crime tributals.
And every testimony came to be given after fabricated Yoshida testimony.
That's enough to doubt the existance of forcible recruitments.

Why would the Dutch have any incentive to lie about this? If the Korean, U.S., Chinese, and/or Russian gov'ts mentioned this, I'm sure that you would be shouting conspiracy.

urecco said:
BTW,there is one comfort women who claimed with evidence.
Her name is 窶｢ﾂｶ窶ｹﾃ看ｽﾃｬ and she showed a banknote and advenced a claim for the savings of 23,145 yen (worth 50 to 100 million yen now) which she could not have withdrawn.
cf.she had been sold by parents to an agent.

Huh? I'm still trying to figure out the relevance of this comment.

urecco said:
What is the source of the estimated number?
Even if it did not the matter if there was one or 1,000,000, it does not justify the exaggeration.
And also the number of total comfort women is important.
If there were 200,000 comfort women,there was little chance that agents recruited them properly,whilst if there were 100 comfort women, there were no need to force them as long as the salary was fair.
According Japanese historian, the total number of Korean comfort women were about 4,000.

Listen, this is getting us no where. You seem to believe that comfort women were all just professional prostitutes and that the Japanese government did its very best to ensure that these women were fairly-treated and relatively well-cared for. Moreover, Japanese soldiers were kindly, gentlemanly patrons of brothels where these women worked and spent (frugally) their monthly stipends to enjoy a little R&R from the hardships of war. No number I provide will ever dissuade you of this.

urecco said:
There are documents which show Japan tried to prevent forcible recruitment and the rule for managing brothel properly.
And report of properly managed brothel.
They are the best available date.

Who are the authors of these documents? Japanese? Koreans? Chinese? Americans? And what were their motivations in authoring such documents? You seem to believe that documents are more official than statements from victims, and what I'm arguing is that documents—no matter how official—are also self-serving interests.

urecco said:
Testimonies wihtout examination do not prove anything.

Documents with bias also do not prove anything.

In your assertion that Korea benefited from Japanese colonization, you listed several books. Well, here are some counterpoints:
Amazon.com: The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910 (Volume 4) (Twentieth Century Japan: The Emergence of a World Power) (9780520213616): Duus, Peter: Books

Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945: Kang, Hildi, Kang, Hildi: 9780801438547: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: Korea Between Empires (9780231125390): Schmid, Andre: Books

Amazon.com: Sources of Korean Tradition, Vol. 2: From the Sixteenth to the Twentieth Centuries (9780231120319): Lee, Peter H., de Bary, Wm. Theodore, Ch'oe, Yôngho: Books

Korea Old and New: A History: Carter J. Eckert, Ki-Baik Lee, Young Ick Lew, Michael Robinson, Edward W. Wagner: 9780962771309: Amazon.com: Books
(see how easy it is to cherry-pick references?)

urecco said:
Japan abolished brutal hierarchy in Korea.

And Japan's hierarchy system is less-ﾂ"brutalﾂ" in what way? Japan didn't ﾂ"abolish the brutal Korean hierarchyﾂ" for altruistic reasons. By destroying that system, it undermines social stability which can lead to uprisings against the invaders.

urecco said:
Japan systemized Korean alphabets (hangle),which was regarded as alphabets for idiots by Yangban.

From the UCLA Language Materials Project: http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=76.

ﾂ"The modern effort to establish Hangul as the writing system of the Korean language was ended in 1910 by Japan, which formally annexed the peninsula as a colony of its empire. During the colonial occupation, Japanese was the official language of Korea; Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use. Japanese became the language of instruction in the schools and by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum. In 1940, Koreans were forced to change their family names and use Japanese surnames instead.ﾂ"

urecco said:
The first dictionary of Korean were published during the Japanese Colonial era. http://english.chosun.com/w21data/h...0402260026.html

If you had carefully read the article, you would see that this dictionary is the THIRD EDITION of that dictionary. As we do not know the publishing date of the FIRST EDITION, I would hold off patting that Nationalistic shoulder. Additionally, the fact that the third edition was published during the occupation period bears no insight as to whether or not the Japanese government approved of and supported its publication. This would not be the first time text was published in opposition to the occupying regime.

urecco said:
Much was invested in schools, public health systems, railways, hydroelectric projects, and the like.

Railways: From http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr15/f22_nak.html
ﾂ"During the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese military had built supply railway lines through Korea, which permitted strengthened international links with Japan's domestic lines at the War's end.ﾂ"
I'm not going to bother responding to other ones because hopefully, you get the idea.

sabro · 22 Apr 2005

Shubayaexpat-
Domo Arigato Gozaimasu. You have done such an excellent job refuting the kind of right wing revisionist crap that makes my skin crawl. Again thank you.

Shibuyaexpat · 22 Apr 2005

Sabro, thanks for your words. Knowing our good friend, we can expect more along the lines of:
-"testimonies don't mean/prove anything"
-"There are legitimate, hard facts-driven documents from Japanese government that say that Japanese occupation of Asian countries was done benevolently."
-"Countries/documents/testimonies/accounts/evidences contrary to above point are lying and try to mar the beauty of Japanese history!"

And my personal favorite: "My opinions are correct because I've cherry-picked and narrowly interpreted the evidence that support them."

sabro · 22 Apr 2005

I think he should blame the fascists and militarists for keeping such good records during world war ii. Without their hard work documenting their own attrocities, all we would have are those millions of witnesses they left alive.

urecco · 22 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
Hey DJ, spin another record. This song's getting old.

Do you agree there is no proof besides testimonies?
Yes or NO. please answer it.

Why would the Dutch have any incentive to lie about this? If the Korean, U.S., Chinese, and/or Russian gov'ts mentioned this, I'm sure that you would be shouting conspiracy.

I never say the Duch lied.
Dutch mention Japanese soldier forced dutch women to work in brothel.
And he was executed.
It is personal war crime.Japan never allow soldiers to do so.

The fact is Korean had never claimed about comfort women until Yoshida testimony became famous.

Who are the authors of these documents? Japanese? Koreans? Chinese? Americans? And what were their motivations in authoring such documents? You seem to believe that documents are more official than statements from victims, and what I'm arguing is that documents—no matter how official—are also self-serving interests.
Documents with bias also do not prove anything.

documents with bias do not prove anything and testimonies without examination do not prove anything.
When what prove forcible recruitments of comfort women?

And Japan's hierarchy system is less-ﾂ"brutalﾂ" in what way? Japan didn't ﾂ"abolish the brutal Korean hierarchyﾂ" for altruistic reasons. By destroying that system, it undermines social stability which can lead to uprisings against the invaders.

Japan's hierarchy? What do you mean?
Korean could become politions and in fact there were Korean politicians.
There was no official hierarchy between Korean and Japanese.
Why don't you think abolish of slavery is a benefit?

From the UCLA Language Materials Project: http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=76.

ﾂ"The modern effort to establish Hangul as the writing system of the Korean language was ended in 1910 by Japan, which formally annexed the peninsula as a colony of its empire. During the colonial occupation, Japanese was the official language of Korea; Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use. Japanese became the language of instruction in the schools and by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum. In 1940, Koreans were forced to change their family names and use Japanese surnames instead.ﾂ"

In 1886, Inoue (follower of Yukichi Fukuzawa) published first newspaer ﾅ?ﾂｿﾂ湘ｩﾅｽﾃｼ窶｢ﾃｱ written in both Chinese charactor and Hangul.After that Korea came to use Hangul.
Before 1886,how many documents were written in Hungle?
Do you know any official document written in Hungle?

"by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum" means until 1937 Korean language was one of the subject in school.
In fact, Korean was taught as a compulsory subject until 1937.
From 1938 to 1941, Korean was an optional subject.
Before annexation, every offical documents and most of books and articles were written in Chinese charactor.
Japan needed to systemized it in order to teach it.

Do you know when Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use?

If you had carefully read the article, you would see that this dictionary is the THIRD EDITION of that dictionary. As we do not know the publishing date of the FIRST EDITION, I would hold off patting that Nationalistic shoulder. Additionally, the fact that the third edition was published during the occupation period bears no insight as to whether or not the Japanese government approved of and supported its publication. This would not be the first time text was published in opposition to the occupying regime.

The publishing date of the first edition is 窶佚･ﾂ青ｳ14窶扼10ﾅ椎ｽ20窶愿ｺ (1925), which is written up-right side.
And it is dictionary for normal school.
Why do you think gov't oppoesed school dictionary published?

If you did not understand how Korean history is distorted,I would make new thread about Japanese colonial era.

Shibuyaexpat · 22 Apr 2005

urecco said:
Do you agree there is no proof besides testimonies?
Yes or NO. please answer it.

Tell you what. Provide me all CREDIBLE proof of the contrary. And by credible, I mean that there is not a shred of possible ﾂ"editorialized informationﾂ" that serves the interests of the Japanese Imperial Army, the Japanese Government and the Japanese war criminals.

urecco said:
The fact is Korean had never claimed about comfort women until Yoshida testimony became famous.

maybe because they were in the middle of another war. Ever hear of the Korean War? I know that they should have sat down and interviewed all the victims of the Japanese army, but I guess they were just a little busy and preoccupied with the constant shifting of the frontline. Damn those Koreans. What in the hell were they thinking?

urecco said:
documents with bias do not prove anything and testimonies without examination do not prove anything.
When what prove forcible recruitments of comfort women?

well by your standards, nothing. If any, your attitude clearly solidifies the opinion that certain Japanese will never be able to OWN UP to its past because you're so pre-occupied with escaping blame.

urecco said:
Japan's hierarchy? What do you mean?
Korean could become politions and in fact there were Korean politicians.
There was no official hierarchy between Korean and Japanese.
Why don't you think abolish of slavery is a benefit?

You misunderstand. Every culture, Japan included, has hierarchies. Are you seriously going to tell me that the Japanese at the top of that hierarchy were NOT brutal to those at the bottom? No official hierarchy between Korea and Japan? ARE YOU RETARDED!!!??! Japan invaded and occupied Korea. That IS the HIERARCHY!! Oh wait, let me guess, you want documents supporting that, right?!!

urecco said:
Before 1910,how many documents were written in Hungle?
Do you know any official document written in Hungle?

Why does this sound familiar? OH YEAH. Because it's the same as this debate:
Japanese Minister Defends Use of Textbooks
Even if provided them, I'm sure that you'd be find some reason why they are NOT official.

urecco said:
"by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum" means until 1937 Korean language was one of the subject in school.
In fact, Korean was taught as a compulsory subject until 1937.
From 1938 to 1941, Korean was an optional subject.
Before annexation, every offical documents and most of books and articles were written in Chinese charactor.
Japan needed to systemized it in order to teach it.

Do you know when Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use?

Read the entire quote. Korean was NOT an optional subject. It reads:
ﾂ"The modern effort to establish Hangul as the writing system of the Korean language was ended in 1910 by Japan, which formally annexed the peninsula as a colony of its empire. During the colonial occupation, Japanese was the official language of Korea; Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use. Japanese became the language of instruction in the schools and by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum. In 1940, Koreans were forced to change their family names and use Japanese surnames instead.ﾂ"

urecco said:
The publishing date of the first edition is 窶佚･ﾂ青ｳ14窶扼10ﾅ椎ｽ20窶愿ｺ (1925), which is written up-right side.
And it is dictionary for normal school.
Why do you think gov't oppoesed school dictionary published?

I'll concede that point because I don't read Chinese.

urecco said:
If you did not understand how Korean history is distorted,I would make new thread about Japanese colonial era.

That's rich! Thanks for the offer, but I've got my hands full with this thread ﾂ…in fact this entire forum..on the distortion of Japanese history.

Shibuyaexpat · 22 Apr 2005

Japan Gov't Agrees That Comfort Women Were Forced

From the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan's Website:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/issue9308.html

"It is evident, at any rate, that, in the war areas, these women were forced to move with the military under constant military control and that they were deprived of their freedom and had to endure misery."

PROOF OTHER THAN TESTIMONY!!!

bossel · 23 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
"It is evident, at any rate, that, in the war areas, these women were forced to move with the military under constant military control and that they were deprived of their freedom and had to endure misery."

But Shibuyaexpat! Don't you understand?
This only means that the Japanese cared for their safety & health!
This only shows how well-managed the brothels (Did I say brothels? Comfort stations, of course!) were.
This only proves that Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs misunderstands the altruist motives of the Japanese Imperial Army.

BTW, I doubt that this will convince Urecco in any way. This report is quoted in the Coomaraswamy report, which also didn't find his mercy.

Shibuyaexpat · 25 Apr 2005

bossel said:
BTW, I doubt that this will convince Urecco in any way. This report is quoted in the Coomaraswamy report, which also didn't find his mercy.

I wonder what evidence ever will. I'm still waiting for all "scientific proof" (his term in one of the other threads) that support the argument that Japanese Imperial Army did NOT forcibly "recruit" comfort women. I thought, with all his adamant and passionate pleas for accurate information, surely, he would have access to the library of non-biased, scientifically sound and objectively quantifiable evidence contrasting what you and i (as well as others) have been arguing.

Still waiting, urecco...

Shibuyaexpat · 25 Apr 2005

(Posted response in wrong section)

urecco · 26 Apr 2005

Shibuyaexpat said:
Why does this sound familiar? OH YEAH. Because it's the same as this debate:
Japanese Minister Defends Use of Textbooks
Even if provided them, I'm sure that you'd be find some reason why they are NOT official.

Sorry,I did know hangul was introduced by Japanese,but I misunderstood when.
So I editted the post:

In 1886, Inoue (follower of Yukichi Fukuzawa) published first newspaer ﾅ?ﾂｿﾂ湘ｩﾅｽﾃｼ窶｢ﾃｱ written in both Chinese charactor and Hangul.After that Korea came to use Hangul.

PROOF OTHER THAN TESTIMONY!!!

As bossel mentioned,it does not prove forcible recruitments.

I'm still waiting for all "scientific proof" (his term in one of the other threads) that support the argument that Japanese Imperial Army did NOT forcibly "recruit" comfort women.

Sorry this quetiion must be offensive,but what you say is like that.
Do you have any scientific proof that support the argument that Korean government did not order their soldiers to kill innocent Vietnamese civilians during the war?

It is almost impossible to provide scientific or direct proof that support the argument that something never happened.

Shibuyaexpat · 26 Apr 2005

urecco said:
Sorry this quetiion must be offensive,but what you say is like that.
Do you have any scientific proof that support the argument that Korean government did not order their soldiers to kill innocent Vietnamese civilians during the war?

Nice deflection technique, but it won't work because you have not provided proof supporting the motivation behind such a directive. Without doing so, I don't need to argue the counterpoint because it's simply your opinion/theory.

Comfort women, on the other hand, actually existed. The motivation for having them has also been proved. Their treatment has been documented. YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGES THIS!!!

What you're arguing here is that whether or not they were forcibly ﾂ"recruited,ﾂ" and what I keep saying is that who would document and then make public later for scientific reference, this information? Consider the parties involved: The Japanese government, the ﾂ"private ownersﾂ" of these comfort stations, the Imperial Army, the individual military personnel who frequented these establishments, and the doctors who treated these women and the women themselves. There are very limited (if any) outside sources to this subject who would have access to this ﾂ"scientific proofﾂ" you keep asking for (and yet are unable to provide yourself). Keep in mind here, the Japanese, unlike the Germans, did NOT keep accurate records during the war, in general. Therefore, you cannot expect the level of information in the Pacific theatre to be on par with that of the European one.

The comfort women only have their personal testimonies. The doctors who treated them may have kept records, but ultimately, it was for the Imperial Army. Now, consider who's left. It seems that the only parties that would have these scientific records are the Japanese government, the Imperial Army, the private owners of these comfort stations and the military personnel. All roads lead back to Japan. And therefore, rather than barking at us to provide this information, maybe you should be barking at your government to be more truthful in what it knows really happened.

Shibuyaexpat · 26 Apr 2005

urecco said:
Sorry,I did know hangul was introduced by Japanese,but I misunderstood when.
So I editted the post:
ﾂ"In 1886, Inoue (follower of Yukichi Fukuzawa) published first newspaer ﾅ?ﾂｿﾂ湘ｩﾅｽﾃｼ窶｢ﾃｱ written in both Chinese charactor and Hangul.After that Korea came to use Hangul.ﾂ"

Huh? The timelines don't add up. First, consider that Japanese annexation of Korea doesn't happen until 1910—a full 24 years before 1886 and more importantly before Korea is officially affected by Japanese policies. Therefore, anything that happened in 1886 was under the direct control of the Korean government.

In reality though, ﾂ"Hansong Sunboﾂ" was first published in 1883 by Bakmunguk, the Korean government publication agency was responsible for its publication. While the biography of Fukuzawa Yukichi by IBE (International Bureau of Education, a part of UNESCO) points out that Kakugoro Inoue was dispatched by Fukuzawa in 1883, the final approval for his role as advisor came from the Korean king. Hangul was introduced when Bakmunguk started the ﾂ"Hansong Jubo (Hansong Weekly)ﾂ" on January 25, 1886. If anything, Inoue's role would have been as advisor in creating a newspaper, and not that of heroic champion of Hangul language.

Therefore, I don't see how, to your previous argument, that the Japanese were the reason why Koreans started to use Hangul.

I eagerly await a response from you that is well supported by evidence.

irishlight42 · 24 Apr 2006

Sorry guys, I've read this whole thread and I couldn't resist.... just had to get in on the fun!

If you did not understand how Korean history is distorted,I would make new thread about Japanese colonial era.

Ok, just want to get urecco to take his words out of context for a bit to think about them. You were saying that South Korea, a Democratic government (no, not Commies) distorts their own history for the sake of bashing the Japanese, BUT do you not believe it to be just POSSIBLE that the Japanese historians have ever tried to glorify their own history?

I'm sorry, historians of all countries do it, certainly here in the U.S., and if you believe that all Japanese historians are telling the truth, and all Korean (and Chinese, Singaporan, American, British, and Australian) historians just tell blatent lies about the Japanese for the hell of bashing them, then well, that seems just a tad Nationalistic to me (Ye, nationalism, led Hitler to declare war on jews, led Bush to declare war on muslims, and unfortunately can potentially lead Japan to declare war on all non-Japanese asians.... AGAIN).

Right, I view Hiroo Onoda as a hero, I also view Isoroku Yamamoto with a lot of respect as a good man. I'm not anti-Japanese, plenty of people know that the average Japanese soldier was IN FACT similar to the average German soldier in that he was victimized by an oppressive government (you do understand that Japan's government was totalitarian I hope?). Unfortunately, an oppressive government invading other countries (i.e. Hitler invades Poland, or George W. Bush invades Iraq and god help us possibly Iran) tends to authorize atrocities (ye, American nationalists are of course trying to justify the camps at Guantanamo Bay). You want to see evidence? Will you really stomach the photos? Or will you call it all propaganda, and say the same thing about Unit 731 and the Rape of Nanking?

Please don't tell me that all the press releases on Iraq are liberal propaganda also, because I'm so tired of hearing that from "patriotic" Americans.

gaijinalways · 17 Jun 2006

I gotta hand it to you Urecco, you should meet Oscar from 'Young Dude's guide to Japan', you two are so like minded! Oscar 'banned' a thread to the basement (where only a limited number of forum posters can read it) where we argued over the 731 labs, with him trying to defend what they did because of what 'his mate', who was there, told him. His idea that the people tortured were all prisoners on death row (friend's testimony) nad that there was possibly some war injury related data that made it necessary or useful to A) use a flamethrower on subjects b) cut out their organs while still alive to see how long they lived after etc..., I think you can get the picture. Oscar is a doctor, hardly an uneducated smuck.

So let me see, someone tells Oscar he was torturing people in the 731 unit, with the government's approval of course, and of course he would have no reason to lie about who he was torturing???!! Yeah, right, if it was me, I would admit all. I just tortured people because I got paid and I thought it was a fun experiment.

I'll put on some coffee now so you can wake up to a new reality. You're younger than Oscar, so perhaps there is more hope, though sadly some of Oscar's Western friends are almost as bad as him, see no evil, hear no evil, speak plenty of evil rubbish!

Kirie_Maiden · 15 Mar 2007

I am sorry that this post is going to take us back to something Urecco said a long time ago, but I just tried to click on this link that he posted.

http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm

I am on my college computer, which, obviously, has a filter system. It stopped me from reading this website, giving me the following message:

Access to the page:
http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm
has been denied for the following reason:
Denied by URL filter rules: Intolerance & Hate

Is Urecco always giving Racist Slur as proof, or was it just this one?

Sorry to drag you to the past, but this really stuck out for me as a reason why his arguments and sources are unreliable.

ARTICLE: Japan rewrites its sex slave history

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