another series of pictures taken at Yasukuni, Aug 15
- Thread starter innerfire
- Start date
Hey Innerfire, maybe you should put your advocacy to help people who actually are in need of help. Sometimes to see is to believe...although it's still hard to believe...
Oh wait, China supports Sudan and is preventing the UN from doing anything... So maybe you should criticize what your country is doing right now, rather than Japan's actions 70 years ago, so you don't look so hypocritical.
Oh wait, China supports Sudan and is preventing the UN from doing anything... So maybe you should criticize what your country is doing right now, rather than Japan's actions 70 years ago, so you don't look so hypocritical.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
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It is interesting to observe the Asian version of neo-Nazi's breeding, while IJ apologists engage in ad hominim. I personally believe both actions of genocides are worthy of condemnation while calling the kettle that calls another black black doesn't make the accusation go away, does it ?
The image of young children in IJA costumes is farcical, scary, and eventually pitiful. What are they going to learn from their parents about Japan's role in WWII ? The benefactor and liberator of Asians under colonial rule by the west ?
The image of young children in IJA costumes is farcical, scary, and eventually pitiful. What are they going to learn from their parents about Japan's role in WWII ? The benefactor and liberator of Asians under colonial rule by the west ?
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No there isn't. However that the latter goes without any recognition and is actively occurring to people today, and the former affects comparatively people beyond that of mental illness and pain with the past.
Look at it this way... what will be achieved by japan's apology? Maybe several hundred thousand of people will feel better (who actually experienced Japanese aggression), probably will do nothing to affect people's live substantively, or improve relations among Asian states. What will be achieved by China ending its support of Sudan's activities in Darfur? 1.6 Million people will stop being persecuted, raped, pillaged and driven from their homes and thrown into the face of famine. I think its pretty clear where people's outrage should be.
Look at it this way... what will be achieved by japan's apology? Maybe several hundred thousand of people will feel better (who actually experienced Japanese aggression), probably will do nothing to affect people's live substantively, or improve relations among Asian states. What will be achieved by China ending its support of Sudan's activities in Darfur? 1.6 Million people will stop being persecuted, raped, pillaged and driven from their homes and thrown into the face of famine. I think its pretty clear where people's outrage should be.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
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- 155
Perhaps we can work to achieve both ?
Heart felt apology and reparation to IJA victims; we are, in essence, symbolic beings more than anything else.
At the same time to help end the oppression and suffering of the Sudanese children.
Yes, according to your reasoning, they should stop putting all those moneies into pr-i-cking up the glory of IJA. What is getting 200,000 people to celebrate "ending the war ﾂ終ﾂ戰" going to achieve ? Isn't that hypocrytical according to your reasoning ? Why not send food where it's needed, not some dead souls who can't eat.
And when did Imperial Japan "end" the war ? That's another down right face saving lie !
Heart felt apology and reparation to IJA victims; we are, in essence, symbolic beings more than anything else.
At the same time to help end the oppression and suffering of the Sudanese children.
Yes, according to your reasoning, they should stop putting all those moneies into pr-i-cking up the glory of IJA. What is getting 200,000 people to celebrate "ending the war ﾂ終ﾂ戰" going to achieve ? Isn't that hypocrytical according to your reasoning ? Why not send food where it's needed, not some dead souls who can't eat.
And when did Imperial Japan "end" the war ? That's another down right face saving lie !
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- 15 Nov 2002
- 1,837
- 64
would be nice if the food sent to the real needy actually gets there, rather than some evil despot regime, insurgent groups, or wannabe terrorist group...
if the food actually got to where it's supposed to, chances are the recovery would be all that much faster...but sending food alone does nothing...without educating the people to become self sufficient...that's where most charity organizations fail...although the conditions for some groups have improved over time...
if the food actually got to where it's supposed to, chances are the recovery would be all that much faster...but sending food alone does nothing...without educating the people to become self sufficient...that's where most charity organizations fail...although the conditions for some groups have improved over time...
lexico said:
Lets be honest here.... Nobody talks about China's complicty in the Zimbabwe and Sudan tragedies unfolding, and everybody in Asia is $#!%ing on japan because it doesn't face up to something it did a generation ago.
den said:
Oh, wait I forgot, China still receives food aid. Secondly The point of me posting people of dafur is not because they are starving, its because they are being killed in a vicious genocide. And when the UN tried to do something, it got blocked by China because of its oil interests in Sudan. And then, China says now its going to protect zimbabwe in the Security council, when Robert Mugabe has been persecuting the poorest members of his society by demolishing shanty towns that didn't vote for him.
So really lexico I don't think its possible to achieve both. Calling attention to Japan's half hearted denial of its wartime past and small minority of ultra nationalists and organizing massive demonstrations just distracts the world from China's even more depraved action of being complict in a genocide. Where do you think your energy should be placed?
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Right on, Den4-sensei.
We need to embark on a war on starvation, food-embezzling corruption, and seed-gnawing locusts !
Genetically engineer the locust to fill the Yasukuni target of 200,000 would be easy breasy. Capture and convert them into a high-protein snack called Host of Locust ﾃ･窶ｺﾅ嘆 to feed the whales to whale and convert into whale burgers freeing other edibles for human consumption. Once the safety of the whale burgers is verified on the human subjects, consolidate the technology and transfer it to the Sudanese Ministry of Fishery.
Honestly food growing technology and and the build up of agro-fishery infrastructure that can guarantee self reliance should take precedence over temporary relief in the long run. But that's only in principle. Let us not put down all the hard work, the 'failure' of good-will orgs have done to feed the immediate hungry.
@ Noyhauser: If you keep repeating similar lines like a broken rap doughnut, I guess I could also say, "Where are you putting your effort, Noyhauser ?" but I'd rather not debase myself. Makes you wonder, though. :?
We need to embark on a war on starvation, food-embezzling corruption, and seed-gnawing locusts !
Genetically engineer the locust to fill the Yasukuni target of 200,000 would be easy breasy. Capture and convert them into a high-protein snack called Host of Locust ﾃ･窶ｺﾅ嘆 to feed the whales to whale and convert into whale burgers freeing other edibles for human consumption. Once the safety of the whale burgers is verified on the human subjects, consolidate the technology and transfer it to the Sudanese Ministry of Fishery.
Honestly food growing technology and and the build up of agro-fishery infrastructure that can guarantee self reliance should take precedence over temporary relief in the long run. But that's only in principle. Let us not put down all the hard work, the 'failure' of good-will orgs have done to feed the immediate hungry.
@ Noyhauser: If you keep repeating similar lines like a broken rap doughnut, I guess I could also say, "Where are you putting your effort, Noyhauser ?" but I'd rather not debase myself. Makes you wonder, though. :?
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Not really lexico. See I could go on to talk about a lot of things with China. Tibet, Taiwan, the Spratly Islands dispute, the Khemer Rouge, or I could even go on about the Communist party's own actions on its own people during the great leap forward and Tiannamen Square. However this bothers me. I don't doubt that Japan has done some pretty horrific things in the past, however they are in the past, and the actions of a few militarists today represent a small amount of the population. For its part Japan in the 21st century has contributed heavily to international peace and security. Every country has its problems with extremists, and yes the Japanese government hasn't taken as harsh a stance as some countries, and its apologies aren't perfect, but continually bashing it isn't helping that. Actually its helping the militarists more than anything else, by pushing more people to support them when they see their country humiliated over and over again. Face is exceptionally important in Japanese culture, just as it probably is in other Asian ones. Humiliating another country for its shameful past will just engender more hatred from within, and will likely cause the exact situation that I think you wish to avoid.
I prefer to let sleeping dogs lay, Since 1945 Japan has had a exemplary human rights record and is a force for good in the world. Militarism has always existed in Japan and likely won't go away for quite some time. However internationalism and pacifism also exist now, and they are strong forces in Japanese politics. Those values should be promoted, but they won't be by vicious campaigns (partly politicaly motivated in China) that denigrate the japanese for the terrible errors made by nobody still living. I say lets deal with the real problems in international relations first like Darfur.
I prefer to let sleeping dogs lay, Since 1945 Japan has had a exemplary human rights record and is a force for good in the world. Militarism has always existed in Japan and likely won't go away for quite some time. However internationalism and pacifism also exist now, and they are strong forces in Japanese politics. Those values should be promoted, but they won't be by vicious campaigns (partly politicaly motivated in China) that denigrate the japanese for the terrible errors made by nobody still living. I say lets deal with the real problems in international relations first like Darfur.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
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- 155
Why should it ? That is your personal choice. I cannot further comment on your person for it is irrelevant to the thread topic.Noyhauser said:
How could you know ? The details are only becoming declassified, so how could you possibly know ? How could anybody know ? One reason many lawsuits against the IJ perpetrators could not be pursued was there were little documented pieces of evidence. We, as in collective we, have barely begun to scratch the surface. Please see Japanese Imperial Government RecordsNoyhauser said:
IWG said:
It goes both ways. Why is discussing facts humiliating ? Why wasn't committing the acts not humiliating back then ? Makes you wonder if there isn't a double standard that swings only in the favor of one party.Noyhauser said:
To my understanding, several provocation came from Japan just this year igniting the Chinese people's response. Please look at the full picture. Like one member so eloquently said, there is a context to it. Do the demonstrations look extreme in your eyes ? One must see what caused it. My radar detects the epicenter some place near Tokyo.Noyhauser said:
They are all important; if you start shoving it, that is arrogance. Why is there resistence to free discussion and sabotaging against a legitimate report from a member of good standing, who from my 3rd-party point of view isn't very intent on Japan bashing at all ? We are civilised people, Noyhauser. You ought to respect that.Noyhauser said:
Just one example to show that you do not know what you are talking about, let me just quote one counter example. As of 2002, there were 76 surviving criminals of Unit 731 and affiliated IJ organisations that engaged in human experiments, chemical-biological warfare (and possibly nuclear tests) who are active memebers of Modern Japan. Do you need a name list ? Green Cross should give you an idea. THEY ARE NOT ALL DEAD AT ALL; THRIVING ACTUALLY.Noyhauser said:
me said:
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Lexico said:
Not really. People can give up their anger, I knew a Canadian veteran from a Japanese internment camp who lost his ill will against the Japanese despite his horriffic treatment after Hong Kong. Sometimes letting things go is the best policy.
Lexico said:
Hmm Just like when he said this:
INNERFIRE said:
Riiight. Secondly I was drawing a parallel which I think is quite valid-> decrying warcrimes of 70 years ago that was inflicted on China -> not acknowledging war crime being aided today by China. There is a VERY clear connection.
Thirdly I don't denigrate people on this forum. I think I did it once, but I regreted it immediately, and stopped posting for some time because of it. Actually, before you joined this forum I participated in very long arguments with several people, and I respected them fully, and even defended them when others denigrated them. So I take exception when you say that I denigrated others.
Lexico said:
Well firstly I was speaking generally about the overall war itself so I should have been more clear. And yes there are war criminals, but as I said, making a cause celebre would likely have the exact opposite effect you are trying to achieve, by whipping up public support for the person in Japan. Many countries around the world torn up by civil strife have pardoned brutal criminals for greater political reasons. Look at South Africa and the truth and reconcillation commissions. Although I'll admit that many have escaped justice, I don't think Japan in its current state will be going on any expeditions to take over asia.
Finally You didn't address my point how blowing the issue up will just increase ill will between the countries and may lead to even more future animosity between Asian states.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
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- 155
There goes your credibility, Noyhauser. I am deeply disappointed in you.
I have been watching every day, and so many times, member innerfire, whose reputation you are out to destroy, bypassed IJA atrocity issues more often than not. In fact, once he even went so far as to call a 'cease-fire' so to speak. "let's take a break"
I have little respect for your vile act of defaming a fellow member to prove your point. In fact I have zero regard for you due to it.
You stil have 24 hours to pull that down; but what you did is so typical, for I have suffered the same from another member in like manner.
I prefer not to comment in detail on your arguements of passing the blame onto criticisers of IJA atrocities. Admitting to criminal acts is so difficult ? Admitting to recent mistakes is so difficult ? Go ahead, pass the bucket. There is an old saying, "The epithaph is strewn with excuses."
I have been watching every day, and so many times, member innerfire, whose reputation you are out to destroy, bypassed IJA atrocity issues more often than not. In fact, once he even went so far as to call a 'cease-fire' so to speak. "let's take a break"
I have little respect for your vile act of defaming a fellow member to prove your point. In fact I have zero regard for you due to it.
You stil have 24 hours to pull that down; but what you did is so typical, for I have suffered the same from another member in like manner.
I prefer not to comment in detail on your arguements of passing the blame onto criticisers of IJA atrocities. Admitting to criminal acts is so difficult ? Admitting to recent mistakes is so difficult ? Go ahead, pass the bucket. There is an old saying, "The epithaph is strewn with excuses."
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I wasn't passing on blame... show me where I was? I was making a parallel. I was also talking about however was that humiliating the japanese will likely make them less amiable than they are now. A similar parallel can be seen in how humiliating Germany in 1919 had a lot to do with the rise of Hitler in 1932.
kirei_na_me
Where I'm Supposed to Be
- 31 Jan 2003
- 5,051
- 166
Nothing good ever comes out of these debates. It's always argued the same way, everytime. Nothing will ever change the other's mind. It's just like how the situation at hand is. No apology will ever be good enough. It's a situation without an end, as I see it. Unless you eradicate Japan, which I'm sure a lot of you would like to do... 
But no, that still wouldn't help...
Anyway...
But no, that still wouldn't help...Anyway...
Lexico said:
Last night I was a little taken aback by this statement. I've posted on this board for nearly two and a half years on JREF, and never once was I ever accused of defaming another person. NOT once. I've been accused of being arrogant, which at times I can be, but NEVER have personally attacked another member for their views. However you said to senseiman (a person I probably disagree with alot but I still respect) that his art exceeds his grasp of facts. I never made a blanket statement such as that about him in all the arguments I have ever had with him. We always argued the facts, and didn't attack each other's personality. It seems you went right to attacking him. And then you say that I would stoop to defaming another person when things get desperate. I strongly resent that, because I've NEVER done it before, and I didn't do it today.
My posting of Innerfire's comments in another thread were as a direct result of your post. I would have never posted it if you didn't open the door on the subject by making him out to be a towering pillar of the JREF community. You made his reputation a topic of conversation, not me, and YOU used it to attack me. And then when I posted something that called that into question you get righteous and denigrate me. Nice try.
Lastly its not defamation because HE SAID IT. For me to carry out defamation would mean I was LYING about something he said, I would have had to make it up, and its quite clear he said it. Actually HE'S DEFAMING ANOTHER JREF MEMBER, by calling into question his nationality for not Bashing Japan. AND I'M DEFAMING HIM?!!? I find that very ironic. And it wasn't two years ago, he said it one week ago. He could have apologized, instead he posts a photo of the Yasukuni shrine, saying how unbelievable it is.
You can say what you want, I'm not backing down. Especially when somebody deems to attack me for something I never did. Oh and I don't care for reputation points (Its a change I don't particularly like)... so send me all the negative points you want... I have a good chuckle when I read them.
innerfire
後輩
- 8 Aug 2005
- 126
- 8
- Thread starter
- #17
It seems time for me to say something to make a "ceasefire" again:
1. About my "SHAME ON YOU" post:
"SHAME ON YOU!!!
Stop using the Chinese name: Wang!!!"
: I apologize, if not too late, for the rudeness. Anyway, I do not have the right to interfere other's choice of nickname. Thank you again Lexico for your kind understanding.
"Stop pretend to be a Chinese!!! "
: As he insists all the time: he is a Taiwanese, not a Chinese, ethnically. Then, OK, stop bothering about a topic (Japan's war crimes in China) that has nothing to do with Taiwanese ethnicity!
2. About Japan-China misunderstandings:
I think kirei_na_me was right. Whatever opinions we have, we all have stated them time and time again. We are still sharing what we have shared, debating on what we have been debating on. I'm also tired of such tedious things. Here may be my ultimate opinion about the issue. Well I'd better stop here.
So why start it again with this thread? Oh please take it easy. Just wanted you to see what's really going on there at Yasukuni, when Koizumi was saying "sorry". I think the pics are pretty new and may have been seen by few people, so posted them for your reference, no matter what kind of opinion you have.
3. About "Sudan incident" as noyhauser mentioned:
Sorry but I've never heard of that. What I know is China observes the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence all the time since 1949. But what's the connection between China and Sudan's situation? Please let me know more. Anyway, I do respect your kind concern about those in extremely poor condition.
p.s. The Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence are as follows:
a. Mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity;
b. Mutual non-aggression;
c. Non-interference in each other's internal affairs;
d. Equality and mutual benefit;
e. Peaceful coexistence.
It's OK to quote what I've said, noyhauser.
btw: JREF is an amazing place where people always win your respect even if you do not agree with them. I think that's why I'm here.
1. About my "SHAME ON YOU" post:
"SHAME ON YOU!!!
Stop using the Chinese name: Wang!!!"
: I apologize, if not too late, for the rudeness. Anyway, I do not have the right to interfere other's choice of nickname. Thank you again Lexico for your kind understanding.
"Stop pretend to be a Chinese!!! "
: As he insists all the time: he is a Taiwanese, not a Chinese, ethnically. Then, OK, stop bothering about a topic (Japan's war crimes in China) that has nothing to do with Taiwanese ethnicity!
2. About Japan-China misunderstandings:
I think kirei_na_me was right. Whatever opinions we have, we all have stated them time and time again. We are still sharing what we have shared, debating on what we have been debating on. I'm also tired of such tedious things. Here may be my ultimate opinion about the issue. Well I'd better stop here.
So why start it again with this thread? Oh please take it easy. Just wanted you to see what's really going on there at Yasukuni, when Koizumi was saying "sorry". I think the pics are pretty new and may have been seen by few people, so posted them for your reference, no matter what kind of opinion you have.
3. About "Sudan incident" as noyhauser mentioned:
Sorry but I've never heard of that. What I know is China observes the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence all the time since 1949. But what's the connection between China and Sudan's situation? Please let me know more. Anyway, I do respect your kind concern about those in extremely poor condition.
p.s. The Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence are as follows:
a. Mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity;
b. Mutual non-aggression;
c. Non-interference in each other's internal affairs;
d. Equality and mutual benefit;
e. Peaceful coexistence.
It's OK to quote what I've said, noyhauser.
btw: JREF is an amazing place where people always win your respect even if you do not agree with them. I think that's why I'm here.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Do we have to change the other's mind ? We post and communicate meaningful ideas. Do you think reading each other's minds through the posts is meaningless ? Do you not see the educational value ? I am learning quite a bit, and I share what I've learned with the forum; but is it just me ?kirei_na_me said:
Is this a result of your observation ? What do you base your conclusion on ?
Extreme assumption, wouldn't you say ?
Please explain.which I'm sure a lot of you would like to do...
And I don't see why you are making these broad, extreme statements. Could you please explain ?
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I think its quite clear what she's saying.
Two years ago there was none of this apology talk, I mean we had an ultranationalist on here but we quickly straightened him out. But it wasn't like this.Today a casual observer would be excused if when he or she read over the board and assumed that the Japanese is actively committing genocide as we speak, given the amount of topics on it. This isn't an advocacy network, and you posting on it constantly isn't going to change any minds.You aren't engaging in communication that passes meaningful communication because you keep hitting people with rhetoric, about how japan is an evil state for its actions. It seems like its all you and other people on here can talk about... and that makes people value your arguments far far less, especially when Japan and its politics encapsulates so much more than that. People have grown tired of this constant droning anti Japanese rhetoric.
Two years ago there was none of this apology talk, I mean we had an ultranationalist on here but we quickly straightened him out. But it wasn't like this.Today a casual observer would be excused if when he or she read over the board and assumed that the Japanese is actively committing genocide as we speak, given the amount of topics on it. This isn't an advocacy network, and you posting on it constantly isn't going to change any minds.You aren't engaging in communication that passes meaningful communication because you keep hitting people with rhetoric, about how japan is an evil state for its actions. It seems like its all you and other people on here can talk about... and that makes people value your arguments far far less, especially when Japan and its politics encapsulates so much more than that. People have grown tired of this constant droning anti Japanese rhetoric.
kirei_na_me
Where I'm Supposed to Be
- 31 Jan 2003
- 5,051
- 166
I don't have to explain anything. No one on this thread is learning anything from this. As I see it, minds are still closed as far as this subject is concerned. No egghead speaking big words is needed to see that.
I am out of this thread as of now.
I hope you all can keep it civil.
I am out of this thread as of now.
I hope you all can keep it civil.
Void
born in the USSR
- 20 Mar 2005
- 409
- 41
Let me introduce my point of view on such matters
I live in a big and once powerful country. She commited many crimes (and, probably still commits) to other nations and to her own people. We have now almost the same situation, almost, with Latvia.
I personaly think that depriving country of its independence should be considered a crime and Russia owed an apology as a successor of USSR. But in the same time we face now rise of neonazism in Latvia and crimes commited by her people with German nazists are being whitewashed, even more those who served in Nazy`s troops are considered almost national heroes. And old people who happend to fight at different sides now are enemies again and driven to opposite sides of barricades. That`s bitter, they haven`t faced enough of war to be driven to such confrontation.
we are not asians, but looks like both governments also not willing "to lose their face". The question is: looking at the situation - is there much to lose with such things running out? On contary, won`t the sincere apology save the face?
Another thing what they might be afraid of is the human tendency to consider respect and apology as weakness: "give them a finger and they shall snatch all the arm"
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Japanese history textboks?
and besides:
as far as i know there were not many talks about Germany apologies till late 80-s and 90-s. And a lot of people who were victims by the time of reparations were already dead. But close look at assosiated political activity can give some answers to such sudden attention.
The same might be with asian situation. The same might happen in a while with the West when it will be demanded to apology for its various crimes.
------------------------
How many people talk about crimes of global corporations? How many people
talk that the situatian in Middle East, in Africa, in Sudan itself and such were caused by the politics of the so-called "first world" countries?
Many are afraid of rising dragon and would be glad to cut his wings. But isn`t
it also the situation of a class "we`ve created a monster"? China`s behavior
is no different from the years-going (and continuing) behavior of "civilaized world", maybe she just learned from us and now steppin back on world`s arena why she should behave any differen than the rest of the players?
-------------------------------
exploited Africa and Asia enreaching itself. In XX century many countries of
these two worlds found themselves independent and in a big debt to the western countries. Oh, yeah, these debts were recently written off. Doesn`t it look hypocritical?
but back to Japan. Why should we remember and remind each other about things what happened 50, 70, 100 years ago? To please our suffering ego, for temporary amusement or fore the sake of preventing such things happening once more? By the same country, by other countries.
I don`t think that those who demand apologies want to hear "Dearest Mr. Chang/ Mr. Lee/ Mrs. Kim/ we bring you personally our apologies for the crimes we`ve done to you and(or) your family". More likely they don`t want the past be forgotten and whitewashed. Why? because if it happen to some new Hitler to appear no one will support him because by that time people will learn to distinguish national pride and nationalism.
But seems to be an utopia for any current world %\
How to keep the memories and live without mutual hatred, without feeling
denigrated, humiliated and without humiliating the others? It`s a serious task for the modern world. Anyone here knows a solution?
-------------------------
Very strong statement, indeed. But not exactly true. Me. for example, i can`t
put up with some historical events, but yet i am fascinated with many aspects of Japanese culture. So, do many others all over the world and in Asia as well. Do we want to eradicate Japan? Certainly, not. Am i mad at Japanese girl i used to study with? Nonsense. If i`d have enough of money i`d spend no less than a month in Japan learning from her people and culture. But if anywhere in a world some neo-nazy marching in his (hers) uniform would try to say that (s)he is more superior and thus can go away with all what was done, i would have to contain myself not to hit them in a nose and say "geez, you`ve got the red blood as the rest of us... or, maybe you don`t have to visit bathroom? :?"
I don`t think that members posting such threads are intended to belittle Japan. As well i don`t think that western members are trying to diminish the
significance of the past, of asian history. We raised in different cultures,
our education might have different accents and blank spots. But aren`t we here to learn from each other?
p.s. sorry if i am not really consistent
I live in a big and once powerful country. She commited many crimes (and, probably still commits) to other nations and to her own people. We have now almost the same situation, almost, with Latvia.
I personaly think that depriving country of its independence should be considered a crime and Russia owed an apology as a successor of USSR. But in the same time we face now rise of neonazism in Latvia and crimes commited by her people with German nazists are being whitewashed, even more those who served in Nazy`s troops are considered almost national heroes. And old people who happend to fight at different sides now are enemies again and driven to opposite sides of barricades. That`s bitter, they haven`t faced enough of war to be driven to such confrontation.
we are not asians, but looks like both governments also not willing "to lose their face". The question is: looking at the situation - is there much to lose with such things running out? On contary, won`t the sincere apology save the face?
Another thing what they might be afraid of is the human tendency to consider respect and apology as weakness: "give them a finger and they shall snatch all the arm"
------------------------
correct me if i am wrong, but two years ago was there the problem with
Japanese history textboks?
and besides:
as far as i know there were not many talks about Germany apologies till late 80-s and 90-s. And a lot of people who were victims by the time of reparations were already dead. But close look at assosiated political activity can give some answers to such sudden attention.
The same might be with asian situation. The same might happen in a while with the West when it will be demanded to apology for its various crimes.
------------------------
How many people talk about US complicity in East Timour(sp?) in Indonesia?
How many people talk about crimes of global corporations? How many people
talk that the situatian in Middle East, in Africa, in Sudan itself and such were caused by the politics of the so-called "first world" countries?
Many are afraid of rising dragon and would be glad to cut his wings. But isn`t
it also the situation of a class "we`ve created a monster"? China`s behavior
is no different from the years-going (and continuing) behavior of "civilaized world", maybe she just learned from us and now steppin back on world`s arena why she should behave any differen than the rest of the players?
-------------------------------
Very interesting situation in a world, don`t you think so? For centuries west
exploited Africa and Asia enreaching itself. In XX century many countries of
these two worlds found themselves independent and in a big debt to the western countries. Oh, yeah, these debts were recently written off. Doesn`t it look hypocritical?
but back to Japan. Why should we remember and remind each other about things what happened 50, 70, 100 years ago? To please our suffering ego, for temporary amusement or fore the sake of preventing such things happening once more? By the same country, by other countries.
I don`t think that those who demand apologies want to hear "Dearest Mr. Chang/ Mr. Lee/ Mrs. Kim/ we bring you personally our apologies for the crimes we`ve done to you and(or) your family". More likely they don`t want the past be forgotten and whitewashed. Why? because if it happen to some new Hitler to appear no one will support him because by that time people will learn to distinguish national pride and nationalism.
But seems to be an utopia for any current world %\
How to keep the memories and live without mutual hatred, without feeling
denigrated, humiliated and without humiliating the others? It`s a serious task for the modern world. Anyone here knows a solution?
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Very strong statement, indeed. But not exactly true. Me. for example, i can`t
put up with some historical events, but yet i am fascinated with many aspects of Japanese culture. So, do many others all over the world and in Asia as well. Do we want to eradicate Japan? Certainly, not. Am i mad at Japanese girl i used to study with? Nonsense. If i`d have enough of money i`d spend no less than a month in Japan learning from her people and culture. But if anywhere in a world some neo-nazy marching in his (hers) uniform would try to say that (s)he is more superior and thus can go away with all what was done, i would have to contain myself not to hit them in a nose and say "geez, you`ve got the red blood as the rest of us... or, maybe you don`t have to visit bathroom? :?"
I don`t think that members posting such threads are intended to belittle Japan. As well i don`t think that western members are trying to diminish the
significance of the past, of asian history. We raised in different cultures,
our education might have different accents and blank spots. But aren`t we here to learn from each other?
p.s. sorry if i am not really consistent
