Another reason not to whale - whales have feelings like us

[WhaleKillers]

This is the most interesting thread I have come across in a whale.. Uh, while. There have been a lot of things which I would love to react on, but I'll keep it to a short post this time.
In my opinion, personal experience doesn't tell us a lot, if we are talking about whether whales have feeling or not. I wish I could swim around dolphins and whales, but I wouldn't dare stick any conclusions to feelings of "bonding". I am sure it was a pretty exciting experience, and that is the reason why I shouldn't trust your gut feelings on this.
According to the two factor theory of emotion, people subconsciously link their emotional arousal with a cognitive label. Experiments have shown that people being interviewed on a wobbly bridge admitted to feeling more attractions towards a interviewer than people being interviewed in a nice safe environment. This is also one the reasons that it is recommended to take your first date to a exciting movie and have dinners at candlelight; the pumping of the heart and widening of the pupil because of bad lighting is wrongly attributed to feelings of love and attraction.
In your case, I am afraid you have attributed your feelings of "bonding" to the swimming amongst the dolphins and whales; I am sure it was experience that increased your heart rate, and caused excitement.
Now, I am not saying that you're trying to mislead the readers or anything, it is perfectly human to make these sort of mistakes. I would like to hear your view on this, and ask you if you have any substantial, possibly scientific proof that whales have emotions, and are able to "bond" or feel anything beyond physical pain.

I also wouldn't dispute your factor theory of emotion, but that isn't much of evidence in of itself either. It proves neither here nor there when trying to apply said theory to my experience, as you're assuming it was due to an some kind of awe at the sight of a dolphin that gave rise to a supposed increased heart rate when I never made such claims!
Anyways, I'm taking you're suggesting that people who say Dolphins/Whales are very intelligent, have feelings, etc. are just imagining it in their heads. It's a bit condescending. Then again, it sounds just like something a guy would assume (sorry). But let me just say, believing Dolphins have intelligence is not like trying to find if God exists.
As for not knowing the differences, a summer internship program at the Bronz Zoo in NY allowed me to handle many types of animals, so yeah, i think I can safely say I can tell the differences, it wasn't in my head?! Not many animals give that level of understanding. Chimps, gorillas, some bird species, yes. But those are smart beings, no? Regardless, people should experience interacting with Whales,Dolphins for themselves, and they will know.

Besides, by you suggestion, I felt more increased heart rate when I was handling a crocodile and snake and believe me, not the same! Ok, Kuala bears give nice bonding feeling when you hold them. They're just very cute but you wonder if there's anything behind their heads and that's not an animal many people have experienced.
Which was why I compared dolphin experience to dog or cat and not lizard or kuala, because it's assumed most people can understand and realize that type of bonding! Of course they're are those that just hate animals period. For others, it just shows how much people need to learn and appreciate dolphins and whales more.

As for scientific proof, numerous studies have been done. The intelligence of dolphins is well-documented by science. :+:Google is our friend:+: Studies show that dolphins have behavioral mimicry, are able to understand language and possess sophistacated language, solve puzzles and use objects, see through sound, and even communicate through television. It is also believed that they can transmit information from one individual to individual. Recent experiments have shown that dolphins can even recognise themselves in a mirror, very rare amongst animals. This demonstrates that dolphins have self awareness, thus showing intelligence on a level that may be very near our own.
Here's a random link:
Welcome to The Dolphin Place - Facts about Dolphins/Whales
I feel people who want to willfully eat whale meat will always try and come up with some type of excuse. It justifies they're eating a precious life that is now more for novelty than need.

I must say at least the USA has evolved and stopped whaling, not resorting to: it's part of our heritage excuse. Japan may be older country but is it smarter?

 

[WhaleKillers]

Going back even to the seventeenth century, findings in neuroscience tend to indicate that animals are not that different to us. The differences are more of degree than in kind. Having said that, the evidence from relative brain size and complexity (which are generally considered the most reliable measures of intelligence) suggest that whales are not very intelligent. Their brains are a hundred times smaller than humans', relative to body mass, and their neocortex has fewer layers than most mammals. On the same criteria, (bottlenose) dolphins are considered very intelligent - second only to humans, with a brain nearly half as large and a frontal lobe almost as complex as a human's.
Whale - Wikipedia
Cetacean intelligence - Wikipedia
Still, I don't think we should base our treatment of other creatures on how similar they are to us. How do you measure similarity? What criteria count - intelligence, chromosome similarity, familiarity? I prefer that we avoid unnecessary suffering to any creatures at all. Call me a crazy person, but I don't even cut flowers as it's killing them unnecessarily. But if someone needs to a kill a whale to survive then so be it - as long as they do it as humanely as possible. The question then is, how often does anyone really need to kill another creature to survive?

Well said.

 

[leonmarino]

I also wouldn't dispute your factor theory of emotion, but that isn't much of evidence in of itself either. It proves neither here nor there when trying to apply said theory to my experience, as you're assuming it was due to an some kind of awe at the sight of a dolphin that gave rise to a supposed increased heart rate when I never made such claims!

I am aware that you didn't make such claims, but I am pretty sure that your heart rate increased when you encountered the dolphins in the sea. I find it hard to believe that anyone could remain untouched by seeing dolphins, or whales for that matter, up close.

Anyways, I'm taking you're suggesting that people who say Dolphins/Whales are very intelligent, have feelings, etc. are just imagining it in their heads. It's a bit condescending. Then again, it sounds just like something a guy would assume (sorry). But let me just say, believing Dolphins have intelligence is not like trying to find if God exists.

I didn't say people imagine it in their heads. I just have to see more proof to believe it myself.

As for not knowing the differences, a summer internship program at the Bronz Zoo in NY allowed me to handle many types of animals, so yeah, i think I can safely say I can tell the differences, it wasn't in my head?! Not many animals give that level of understanding. Chimps, gorillas, some bird species, yes. But those are smart beings, no? Regardless, people should experience interacting with Whales,Dolphins for themselves, and they will know.

I wish I could interact with these animals! You obviously have more experience in this area.. Still, I am very wary of personal experiences. I am a firm believer of the fact that people make psychological/coginitive mistakes all the time, me included. On the one hand it is something I find most interesting, but on the other hand it makes me very critical.

Besides, by you suggestion, I felt more increased heart rate when I was handling a crocodile and snake and believe me, not the same! Ok, Kuala bears give nice bonding feeling when you hold them. They're just very cute but you wonder if there's anything behind their heads and that's not an animal many people have experienced.

Emotional arousal experience when handling a crocodile or snake or anything of which you know that poses a danger is hard to label as "attraction". The theory does not tell you that people make this misattribution all the time; your conscious cognition does function well most of the time.

Which was why I compared dolphin experience to dog or cat and not lizard or kuala, because it's assumed most people can understand and realize that type of bonding! Of course they're are those that just hate animals period. For others, it just shows how much people need to learn and appreciate dolphins and whales more.

Oh, I agree that people should appreciate dolphins and whales more, no doubt about that! I ate whale just once out of curiosity, and now I am more clueless to why so many people eat it as it didn't taste well at all. I think it should be banned for this reason (large amounts of toxics in whale meat) too.

As for scientific proof, numerous studies have been done. The intelligence of dolphins is well-documented by science. :+:Google is our friend:+: Studies show that dolphins have behavioral mimicry, are able to understand language and possess sophistacated language, solve puzzles and use objects, see through sound, and even communicate through television. It is also believed that they can transmit information from one individual to individual. Recent experiments have shown that dolphins can even recognise themselves in a mirror, very rare amongst animals. This demonstrates that dolphins have self awareness, thus showing intelligence on a level that may be very near our own.
Here's a random link:
Welcome to The Dolphin Place - Facts about Dolphins/Whales

I have taken a quick glance at the site but it doesn't look like an unbiased source of information to be honest. I do admit to have seen a lot of documentaries on dolphins and their way of communicating. They are interesting animals.

I feel people who want to willfully eat whale meat will always try and come up with some type of excuse. It justifies they're eating a precious life that is now more for novelty than need.
I must say at least the USA has evolved and stopped whaling, not resorting to: it's part of our heritage excuse. Japan may be older country but is it smarter?

I wouldn't say USA is a "smarter" country because their government has abolished whale-hunting. Now I come to think of it, what do the dolphins have anything to do with the whales? I am afraid I got carried away a little and didn't notice that the original discussion was on whale-hunting, and not on the beauty of the dolphins, a subject I would love to talk about and, truth to be told, which are interesting mysterious animals that just might possess some sort of consciousness similar to human beings'.
But whales? Do they use echo-location? Are they so similar to dolphins that we might compare these two species? Unlikely, as Chimpansees and Bonobos look very much alike too, but are very different in their behaviour.
As I said earlier, I have no clue to why people eat whale meat and I think that people should stop doing it. However, the reason that "whales have feelings just like us" still doesn't sound convincing to me. Bad toxics in whale meat is a better argument, in my personal opinion.

 

[Uchite]

More on whales and the cruelty and unnecessity of whaling.


http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2004/march/no_humane_way_to_kill_a_whale_at_sea.htm

 

[ricecake]

Any statistic on number of whales Japan slaughtered a year ?

 

[Uchite]

Any statistic on number of whales Japan slaughtered a year ?

One is too many.

 

[ricecake]

Don't we use whale oils for soap making ?

 

[Poke-mon master]

One is too many.

Any statistic on number of Cow US slaughtered a year ?

 

[Poke-mon master]

Any statistic on number of American Bison US slaughtered ?

 

[Uchite]

Any statistic on number of Cow US slaughtered a year ?

Again, one is too many.

http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/slaughterhouses.html


http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/04-4om/Jones.html

 

[Uchite]

Any statistic on number of American Bison US slaughtered ?

Again, one is too many.


Greedy humans are going to make these and other beautiful animals extinct one day.


January 2, '06- Stop the Slaughter - Bison Hunt

 

[Poke-mon master]

Again, one is too many.
Greedy humans are going to make these and other beautiful animals extinct one day.
January 2, '06- Stop the Slaughter - Bison Hunt

Thanks, Uchita.

If one animal is too many for you to kill by human even for eating, then What should Human eat for living?

I agree that human should not kill too many animals, especialy if there is a risk of extinction.

But if it is not, I think limited number of animals can be caught and killed to eat, off course not too many.

 

[Uchite]

Thanks, Uchita.

You are welcome sir.

If one animal is too many for you to kill by human even for eating, then What should Human eat for living?

Don't mean to start or engage in any kind of argument with anyone here, but ideally I think that it would be a healthier, happier and more peaceful world if we as humans evolved beyond eating meat. I know there are tons of people who disagree, and that is fine. In primitive days and many, many years ago it was necessary to survive. But now with all the slaughterhouses, all the junk that Animals are all pumped full of in order to make them produce more or be more lean etc., it is more unhealthy than healthy to eat meat IMO. I just feel it is for the most part an unnecessary cruelty that Man inflicts upon Animals with all the farming, slaughterhouses, etc. In my own case, I feel much better physically and mentally since having stopped eating meat.

I agree that human should not kill too many animals, especialy if there is a risk of extinction.

And I agree with you. Extinction is a very real possibility in the future with not only for many Animals, but certain seafood also. We as humans just take, take, take from Nature.

But if it is not, I think limited number of animals can be caught and killed to eat, off course not too many.

The situation of someone hunting an Animal and eating it to feed him/herself and his/her family for survival is another thing entirely.

Anyway, thanks for your thought provoking response.


:beer1:

 

[ricecake]

Pump it up !

Just to refresh the topic

 

[Sarapva]

I know this is an old thread, but this is an important topic. I'm also vegetarian, and my main reason for not eating meat is because of the way the animals are raised and killed in the meat industry. But I also feel much better not eating meat, so I don't think I would even if things changed. I don't want "blood on my hands" so to speak, in a karmic way.

 

[Poke-mon master]

Issue is not "Whaling"

I understand the issue of "Eating meat". Then I think that issue is not "Japan Whaling". Should Human being eat a meat and fish, or not?
I know we can live without fish or meat. we can live with eggs, milk, beans, and vegitables. Human don't need to eat meat and fish to live.

Think about how much corns or wheats or water to feed cow, we can feed more starving pepole with those corns and save the water.

But in the captalism world we live, many people is making money to sell beef, and many people pay more money to buy beef than corns. This fast circulation of money enable us (especialy developed contory like me and you) to live like now.

Sorry, I don't have an answer how to change current world to more sustainable. But I strongly feel we have to change something.

 

[Sarapva]

I agree with you, Poke-mon master. It's the meat industry in general that's making money, so they're selling meat instead of the grain that they feed the cattle, when the grain could feed a lot more people. Something will have to be changed about how we're doing things now. Maybe those of us in developed countries will need to voluntarily go back to a more simple way of living ("voluntary poverty" - "poverty" being a relative term).

 

[NoWrongInWhaling]

Tolerating nations that wish to restart whaling on a sustainable basis rather than vilify them would be a step in the right direction.

Whales are basically naturally occuring and replenishable food resources (as far as whale eating peoples are concerned).

Tolerating whaling to the extent that it is sustainable would enable humankind to at least reduce some amount of reliance on farm based forms of food production.

 

[yukio_michael]

In primitive days and many, many years ago it was necessary to survive. But now with all the slaughterhouses, all the junk that Animals are all pumped full of in order to make them produce more or be more lean etc., it is more unhealthy than healthy to eat meat IMO. I just feel it is for the most part an unnecessary cruelty that Man inflicts upon Animals with all the farming, slaughterhouses, etc. In my own case, I feel much better physically and mentally since having stopped eating meat.

It wasn't a necessity to survive... It's amazing how many vegans are ignorant of actual history, while spouting their own rhetoric.

For example, the Japanese ate almost anything that they could, bark, a very simplified version of rice, plants, what have you, they didn't eat much meat until later...

You know what I feel bad about... women getting stoned to death for adultery, human cruelties against other humans....

I'm so tired of this rhetoric about our moralities having evolved so, that we shouldn't eat meat... We still kill humans, in many different ways, but our morals are so evolved that we shouldn't eat meat?

If you think it's any different than a Bison dying slowly by a number of spears thrown into it as such to make it slowly bleed to death, and the mechanized killing of cattle, you'll see that the mechanized method is at least even more humane.. though at a larger scale.

Do what you will with your own diet, but don't be so insulting as to say that others are propagating cruelty by eating a steak. Men were thrown into plastic shredders in Iraq as a means of execution, but I've never heard a vegan even mention such a thing.

ps. This has NOTHING to do with Whaling... please keep your vegan ideals out of the topic...

 

[NoWrongInWhaling]

For me the whole focus on how we kill the animals is like losing sight of the forest for the trees. Sure, where humans seek to kill animals they should aim to do it as swiftly as possible with the means available. But people who are opposed to whaling particularly "because it's cruel" are most annoying as they lose sight of the reality that "free range" or wild animals like whales live better lives than the domesticated animals which we eventually slaughter. If one puts oneself in the animal's hooves, OK you are gonna die by one method or the other, but prior to that you either get to live freely (sometimes known as "naturally") or otherwise you get to live inside a pen or a fence - everyone will always choose to be a whale (especially when you consider that many whales die of "natural" causes).
But yeah ultimately everyone lives their lives in accordance with their own beliefs, and it reeks of totalitarianism when people of one persuasion deride people of another for such differences.

 

[KirinMan]

ps. This has NOTHING to do with Whaling... please keep your vegan ideals out of the topic...

While I agree with just about everything you wrote in the reply that I am partially quoting here I would just like to add that there is another thread HERE discussing issues related to vegetarians and meat eaters.

Oh one other thing, don't know if you realized it or not but you were replying to a post that is nearly 1 year old.

The thread is titled Vegetarians......Yes or No

 

[yukio_michael]

Oh one other thing, don't know if you realized it or not but you were replying to a post that is nearly 1 year old.

Oh man! Why was this thread necromanced from the dead...? I didn't notice at all, but thanks for pointing that out.

I did add my two cents to that other thread as well... I don't feel so silly responding to a year old post... I hate these old threads that get revived a year later--- they should just fall off the board or get locked.

I know this is an old thread, but this is an important topic. I'm also vegetarian, and my main reason for not eating meat is because of the way the animals are raised and killed in the meat industry. But I also feel much better not eating meat, so I don't think I would even if things changed. I don't want "blood on my hands" so to speak, in a karmic way.

Next time, start a NEW thread... though you're probably long gone too....

 

[Sarapva]

Yes, I'm the guilty party! Sorry - I was new to the forum when I revived this thread. No, I'm not long gone .......