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A few words/expressions

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Hi,

There are a few expressions that I randomly found recently that are very good for common and daily use, but its not clear yet how to exactly and always use them, so Id like to know some explanation even if brief, since when I eventually go to translate them, different words show up, so I dont know the difference

ー などなど 
ー どして (and difference to どうやって)
ー あして (and difference to 明日 [あした])
ー たとえば
ー Difference between ありがとうございます and どうもありがとう

It may be a lot so no need to answer all in one post or at the same time

THANKS IN ADVANCE
 

mdchachi

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Hi,

There are a few expressions that I randomly found recently that are very good for common and daily use, but its not clear yet how to exactly and always use them, so Id like to know some explanation even if brief, since when I eventually go to translate them, different words show up, so I dont know the difference

ー などなど 
ー どして (and difference to どうやって)
ー あして (and difference to 明日 [あした])
ー たとえば
ー Difference between ありがとうございます and どうもありがとう

It may be a lot so no need to answer all in one post or at the same time

THANKS IN ADVANCE
- etc etc
- I think you mean どうして which is "why" and どうやって is "how."
- not familiar with あして. Do you have a sentence?
- For example
- it's like the difference between "thank you kindly" and "thanks a lot."
 

Majestic

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Just saw mdchachi posted as I was writing, but I'll put my two cents in anyway. There is almost no way to express how to "exactly and always" use any expression in Japanese, since it is a such a context-oriented language. One's use of Japanese is always moderated by position relative to your audience. And the list of potential situations where any of these phrases could be used would be endless, so its better to be more fluid in your thinking.

などなど almost identical to how we use "etcetera, etcetera" in English.
どして you probably mean どうして. どうして can mean "how" or "why" depending on the context. どうやって means more specifically "by what means", "by what process".
あして not clear what you mean. There is no such word as あして. Are you asking what the difference is between 明日 and あした? 
ありがとうございます/どうもありがとう nearly identical ways of expressing thanks. ありがとうございます can be a bit more formal depending on the context. But then again, tone also plays a part.
 

Toritoribe

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ー あして
Are you referring to あして, by any chance?

ー Difference between ありがとうございます and どうもありがとう
ありがとうございます is a polite way of saying ありがとう, thus, you usually wouldn't use it for very close friends or family members. On the other hand, どうもありがとう is never used for superiors since it's rude. Incidentally, you can also use どうもありがとうございます as a more polite way than ありがとうございます.
 

Toritoribe

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どうも can perform as a shortened version of どうもすいません or どうもありがとうございます, so it can work well in a situation where polite words are necessary. It's relatively commonly used for a stranger.
 
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Thanks for all the answers really, there were way more than I thought but Ive read them all, will try to sum here:

If I want to use Et Cetera only once, can I use などなど too? And, is it only informal or it can be used formally too?

Its likely どうして really (its just not clear if it means how or why, does it really depend on the context?)

あして possibly mispelled, since it was heard not written (like どうして) so its not quite accurate (maybe its a Kanji and I dont know), maybe its ああして really but dont know, its that when translating online both どして and あして had translations so I thought they were right

たとえば can be used in the beggining of sentences, or in the end? Or it depends on structures and contexts (if its related to Grammar or LOOONG explanation no need to bother answering if you dont feel like, Im begginer yet)

About "thank you" theres different points of view

Thank you very much again
 

mdchachi

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どうも can perform as a shortened version of どうもすいません or どうもありがとうございます, so it can work well in a situation where polite words are necessary. It's relatively commonly used for a stranger.
So it's more polite than どうもありがとう? Interesting.
 

mdchachi

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Its likely どうして really (its just not clear if it means how or why, does it really depend on the context?)
Yes, just like English or Portugese, words can change meaning depending on context.
WWWJDIC is a good dictionary you can try. You can even type words in romaji.
Look up doushite and see what it says. 90% of the time I probably use it in the "why" sense. You can also use it to say "w.t.f." (i.e. as an interjection).

たとえば can be used in the beggining of sentences, or in the end? Or it depends on structures and contexts (if its related to Grammar or LOOONG explanation no need to bother answering if you dont feel like, Im begginer yet)
Usually at the beginning, in the same way you'd start a sentence with "For example..."

About "thank you" theres different points of view
There are a variety of grammar and words in the language to reflect different levels of politeness depending on the relative social position of the speaker and the listener. You can ignore most of that for now.
 

Buntaro

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どうもありがとう

I think of the word どうも as meaning "indeed" so I think of ありがとう as meaning "thank you" and どうもありがとう as meaning "thank you indeed". (I have heard people say "thank you" in Japanese by only saying どうも.)
 

Toritoribe

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So it's more polite than どうもありがとう?
The point is that ありがとう is the plain form(普通体). For instance, when your boss asks もう昼ごはん食べた? in the office, a plain form answer さっき食べた sounds very rude. On the the hand, just さっき is interpreted as a shortened version of さっき食べました, so it's far better than さっき食べた. In fact, はい、さっき works perfectly fine as the answer. どうもありがとう vs. どうも is just like this. どうもありがとうございます and はい、さっき食べました/いただきました are the best, respectively, though.
 

mdchachi

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The point is that ありがとう is the plain form(普通体). For instance, when your boss asks もう昼ごはん食べた? in the office, a plain form answer さっき食べた sounds very rude. On the the hand, just さっき is interpreted as a shortened version of さっき食べました, so it's far better than さっき食べた. In fact, はい、さっき works perfectly fine as the answer. どうもありがとう vs. どうも is just like this. どうもありがとうございます and はい、さっき食べました/いただきました are the best, respectively, though.
I got it, thank you. That reminds me, I went through 6 semesters of university Japanese and it was only near the end of all that the instructor told us -- you know all those particles and grammar we've taught you? Well you can drop them completely.
Of course that's an exaggeration but for example instead of deliberating which to use は or が, you can simply use neither.
I don't remember the examples but probably something like:
これ、ペンです instead of これはペンです or これがペンです
And the listener will plug in the missing portion and it will be magically correct Japanese. Probably more correct than if I mistakenly say the wrong particle.

どうも
 

bentenmusume

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Of course that's an exaggeration but for example instead of deliberating which to use は or が, you can simply use neither.
Well, it's not exactly that simple.
I don't really have time to write a whole essay about it at the moment, but while there are times when it's possible to omit particles in speech, or use a "null particle" (this is different from simply omitting the particle) in place of は or が, it's not as easy as saying that in any case, you can simply drop the は or が and using no particle will automatically be as correct as using the appropriate particle. There are certainly cases where it would come off as more awkward to not use は or が.
 

mdchachi

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This is the only post in our entire forum that mentions "null particle" so now you got me curious. Please extrapolate on that part when you get a chance. Just a short essay will be sufficient. :)
 

bentenmusume

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Haha, sure. I'm not sure "null particle" (or "zero particle") is an official term, but it's the one our instructor used way back in my time at the (now sadly defunct) Japanese FALCON program. (I also forget whether or not it was actually in our textbook, Jorden's Japanese: the Spoken Language, or whether it was supplementary information. Perhaps the former.)

Basically, as you point out, there are many cases where は and が are not strictly necessary. Going a step further than that, there are actually some cases and contexts where having no particle is preferred. This is called the "null" or "zero" particle rather than a "dropped" particle because the latter would imply that the particle is technically necessary and the "correct" version with this just being a slang/colloquial version of it with essentially the same nuance—which isn't the case. In certain contexts, the null/zero particle is the preferred particle, and using は or が would impart an awkward or undesirable nuance.

Some simple and easily understood examples would be その髪型、似合っていますよ or このビール、うまいよね.

In both of these sentences, the most natural to express the basic sentiment of "That hairstyle looks good on you" and "This beer tastes great" is with no particle. If you were to use は here, the nuance would be contrastive and potentially insulting, i.e. その髪型は似合っていますよ ("That hairstyle, at least, looks good on you {but your clothes, on the other hand... / but let's not talk about your face...}"), while が would be weirdly exhaustive and emphatic ("It's your hairstyle that suits you" as if you were responding to the question "What is the one thing that suits me?") In this case, it's not that the "correct particle" は or が is being "dropped", it's that no particle (i.e. the zero/null particle) is the most natural option from the start.

As far as I know, many textbooks don't teach this, but I believe it's a somewhat important concept to understand at the higher levels if you're actually striving for relatively natural/near-native fluency in the spoken language.

(edited to add: Just for clarity, dropped/omitted particles in casual language are also a thing. That is to say, not every instance of no particle is necessarily the zero/null particle. The distinction is whether the presence or absence of the particle would fundamentally alter the nuance of the utterance.)
 

mdchachi

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Very informative, thank you. I don't remember ever talking about this. Or if we did it was only briefly. This is the kind of thing you will naturally pick up I think but it's good to have some level of explicit understanding.
 

Toritoribe

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Well, actually, you've already come across the concept of "null particle" previously in this forum with the term "empty particle" or 無助詞.;)

There are situations/contexts where 無助詞 is the most appropriate, as bentenmusume-san mentioned. All the examples その服、かわいいね, その髪型、似合っていますよ and このビール、うまいよね are talking about a thing/matter/phenomenon before the speaker's eyes (眼前の事象について述べる文 by a linguist's classification).
 
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Thx for all the last posts, including the ones about particles

Obviously Im not in a level to memorize all this and use, but its all saved for future study (and opened more perspectives too which is GREAT)
 
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