自然のままのみかん / 最後の旅路 / 過保護 / いい大人

[eeky]

Hello,


1. 自然のままのみかんを売ろうとすると、こんな酸味の強 いものは都会人の好みに合わないという理由で、ジュース用として何分の一かの安い値にされてしまう。

Translation given:

"Urbanites don't care for naturally astringent tangerines, so a portion are sold at a greatly reduced price to juice makers."

I am unsure of the grammar of ジュース用として何分の一かの安い値にされてしまう。I get:

ジュース用として = "for the purpose of (making) juice"
何分の一かの安い値 = "low price of a portion (of the tangerines)"
にされてしまう = "ends up being done" / "ends up being treated/handled in the way described"

However, I don't exactly understand how these things combine grammatically. What is the core structure/pattern here? Especially, what is the grammatical relationship of にされて in relation to the other parts?

Also, what is 一か?


2. 私は今まさに最後の旅路につき、暗黒へと一大飛躍しよ うとしている。

Translation given: "I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark."

a) What does につき mean here?

b) I understand 暗黒へ to mean "in(to) the dark", but what is the purpose of と?



3. The speaker is reporting something she read in the newpaper:

このごろの子供は過保護だ過保護だって言うけれど、大 人だってそうだ。特に都会の人は過保護だって。

Translation given: "How strange it is that people claim kids are so overprotected when adults are really overprotected as well. Adults living in cities, especially."

a) Are all three instances of って to show that the speaker is quoting from the newspaper?

b) Does そうだ re-emphasise って, in the sense of "so it says here"?

c) In the first sentence, is 過保護だ repeated simply for emphasis?

d) Where does the "how strange" meaning come from, or is that just the translator's licence?


4. (Still the same speaker as in the previous question.)

いい大人が年寄りか赤ん坊のように大事にされてるって 。

Translation given: "Old or young, today's grown-ups are treated like infants."

I don't get this at all. To me it looks more like "Grown-ups are treated like old people or infants". However, I don't really understand what いい大人 means ("proper" adults, perhaps?), or 大事にされてる, or the function of か. Help!

I assume that って means the speaker is still quoting from the letter?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
That's not 何分の一かが安い値にされてしまう. 何分の一かの安い値 means "a fraction of the price (of eating tangerines)".

2) a)
旅路につく: to start on a journey/to be about to go on a journey

b)
That と is considered the same usage as "adverb + と".

５ （副詞に付いて新たな副詞をつくり）ある状態を説明する意を表す。「そろそろ―歩く」「そよそよ―風が吹く」

と - goo辞書

3) a)
The second だって means "too/also". As for the last one, two interpretaions are possible; 1) 「このごろの子供は過保護だ過保護だって言うけれど、大人だってそうだ。特に都会の人は過保護だ」って。, i.e., the whole sentence is the quotation of the newspaper, and 2)「このごろの子供は過保護だ過保護だ」って言うけれど、大人だってそうだ。特に都会の人は過保護だって。, i.e., only the first clause is the quotation. But, judging from the sentence quoted in #4, the former one is correct. (And this is also the answer to your last question in #4.)

b)
大人だってそうだ。
Adults are also overprotected.

c)
It has a nuance of something like "people all/always/often say ~".

d)
～けれど、･･･だってそうだ.
People often say "kids are so overprotected", but adults are also overprotected. So, it's strange to say such things.

4)
いい大人 is a kind of ironic expression; "a person who is grown up enough".

大事にされてる: to be cared for/to be taken care of

か: or

 

[eeky]

Thank you.

1. Is the following correct?

されてしまう = (tangerines) end up being used
ジュース用として = for making juice
何分の一かの安い値に = at a fraction of the price (that it would cost to buy whole tangerines for eating)

3a. In the second interpretation, where the last って does not show quoting from the newspaper, what would the last って mean?

4. I am still missing something here. I get this:

いい大人が = a person who is grown up enough
年寄りか ???
赤ん坊のように大事にされてるって = is taken care of like an infant

So, I still have this floating 年寄りか which I can't fit. If か means "or" then I suppose 年寄りか赤ん坊 could mean something like "old or (very)young", but then where does the "treated like an infant" meaning come from?

 

[Mike Cash]

されてしまう goes with 安い値に so it isn't about their use, but about what price they go for.

4. You've never heard of an old person being in their "second childhood"? There are parallels between infants/toddlers and the elderly in many cases: they get sick more easily; they sometimes need help walking, dressing themselves, feeding themselves; and they don't always understand what is said to them or what is going on around them. Each requires an extra bit of care/attention.

The translation "treated like an infant" just left out the 年寄り bit as an expedient to a smoother functional translation rather than getting hung up on a word-for-word, phrase-for-phrase literal translation. I think sometimes what you get hung up on is a tendency to look for and expect every little thing that was in the Japanese original to make an appearance in the English translation.

 

[Toritoribe]

3) a)
だって is a colloquial way of saying だと思う.

 

[eeky]

Thank you both.

I'm sorry to labour this, but unfortunately I still do not understand #4. I understand that いい大人が...赤ん坊のように大事にされてる can mean "Grown-ups are taken care of like infants". However, I do not understand the purpose of 年寄りか. Apparently か means "or" here, so 年寄りか would mean "old people or", but I do not see any way to insert "old people or", or anything like it, into the relevant place in the sentence. For a start, old people or what?

Unless, as I mentioned, 年寄りか赤ん坊 means "old people or infants", but then the sentence as a whole would appear to mean something like "Grown-ups are treated like old people or infants", per my original post...

I am very confused.

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

だって is a colloquial way of saying だと思う.

Wretched だって again ... my favourite ever Japanese "word"!

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, your initial interpretation is correct. I just wrote the explanations.

 

[eeky]

Yes, your initial interpretation is correct. I just wrote the explanations.

Jeez ... sorry guys, there has been a complete misunderstanding in this thread. I was assuming all along that my interpretation was incorrect since it appeared not to match the translation in the book.

 

[Mike Cash]

Again, you worry too much about being totally literal with stuff. いい大人 is almost an idiomatic expression; instead of just "grown-up", think of it having a nuance more like "a grown-assed man" in English. You're hanging up on the fact of 年寄り also being 大人. While that is true, their reduced capabilities place them outside the sphere of いい大人 and there is no problem understanding exactly what is meant by the Japanese sentence. It really is quite a simple one. However, attempting to force that bit into the translation would add nothing to except confusion and awkwardness while leaving it out doesn't diminish the accuracy and may improve clarity; that's why it isn't present in the translation.

You need sometimes to loosen up and be a bit less literal-minded. Concentrate on being able to comprehend the Japanese as it is. If it is your goal to learn Japanese, that alone is sufficient without translating. If it is your goal to be a translator, concentrate on being able to comprehend the Japanese as it is and rendering functional translations with natural English phrasing.

 

[eeky]

The saga of sentence #4 was nothing to do with trying to be too literal, it was just a total confusion on my part about the structure of the sentence. In fact, I had the basic structure right first time, but I didn't know it and thought I was wrong. Therefore, we were all talking at cross-purposes.